Winrates, bankrolls, and finances
Venice's Introduction to the Thread.
I make a rule to not change someone's post unless it violates a rule. However this is the exception. Not because APD's post is bad (it is good), but because there's lots of discussion back and forth on winrates, and some people are just looking for a simple answer to winrates and bankrolls.
The simple answer is that winning is good. The majority of people playing poker lose money. Poker is a worse than zero sum game because of rake. Therefore if you are winning, you're doing well.
Harrington wrote that if you are beating a live game for 10BB/hr, you're crushing it. That's $20/hr at 1/2 and $50/hr at 2/5. That doesn't mean that you can't beat it for more, it just means that over time winning that much means you're vastly superior than your opponents. Most people don't sustain that over a long period of time because they move up to win more money.
The second simple answer is to stop worrying about what your sustainable winrate is. In order to get a big enough sample to statistically generate an accurate winrate, you and your opponents have play thousands of hands exactly the same way. Poker doesn't work that way. If you aren't improving your play over that amount of hands, you're falling behind your opponents. Therefore, the results are meaningless.
Finally, Kurt put it best that you need 20 buyins to play a level.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/mic...
On to the rest of the thread.
So here it is... The Win Rate thread (and other finances)!
This thread will basically be a containment thread and will stock pile all of the questions and answers about winrates. I would also like to include bankroll management and other finances into this thread. Bottom line is this, if you are worried about a win rate you should probably be worried about bankroll management also.
Instead of starting this thread like all other winrate threads by asking the question, "What is a good hourly/winrate at live 1/2?" I would rather take the time to explain a few tools live players have to help us with it and to also help us become disciplined. The "whats a good rate" questions I am sure will be asked time and time again.
Online players have some superb tools that they get to use. HUD's, databases, OPR, PTR, Shark Scope, and the list goes on. Live players have one thing, our memory. As we all know the human mind is prone to what is called human error, or in a lot of "winning" poker players cases exaggeration and forgetfullness. I think its important to discuss how we go about keeping track of all this information that will be important to and for our games. So get your pens and pads ready, or phones, and get ready to start logging!
What goes into a winrate? A lot of people simply log the hours played, the amount they bought in for, and the amount they cashed out. At the end they calculate it all together and wala a winrate or, like most live players use, an hourly rate. This is probably the easiest way to do it. When I first started logging my play I would bring a binder with me that kept all my poker "stuff" in it and I would log it into the book at the end of the session. If I had forgotten the binder I would make a quick note in my phone and write it later. I always made it a point to do it right then and there though. Never ever wait! Human error will kick in.
Times have gotten much more advanced though. Live players now have some pretty useful tools that we can use. First one I will talk about is Poker Journal for the Apple fanboys.
Poker Journal by Michael Golden is a program that will track both your live and tournament play (and any game you would like to add to your database) and calculate everything for you. It will give you your hourly rate, time played, average won, average lost, sessions won and lost, and much much more. It will also graph your sessions and run reports for you. You want to know what day or time has been the best to play or what location is the most profitable? Simply filter your stats and its all there. It will also run live cash games. You hit start and the clock goes a ticking. Unfortunately it runs only on the iPhone and iPod at the time and is $12.99.
Next is www.checkyourbets.com. I personally have not used this, but going to the website and looking at some of the screen shots and reading the FAQ it looks pretty solid and its FREE! 😃 Others on here use this site and I will let them add what they feel is appropriate.
Last is cardplayer.com. Their format is very simple yet boring. If you want something quick and easy with not too much detail then its for you. It definately beats a pen, paper and calculator, but I would go with one of the other ones personally.
There are others, but I think those are some pretty good examples. So why go through all this trouble to tell you about these tools? Simple, you want to know what kind of winrate is to be expected then start logging. What I do is not going to be the same as what you do or anybody else does. Not only will you start to learn about winrates at the different levels but you will be able to disect your game and learn many things. It will teach you discipline. When you are making it a point to log each session you will start to treat your poker more like a business and become more serious about it. Also important is to log your expenses. You need to know if you are spending too much and if it is affecting your roll.
Bankroll is another important thing. I think we all can agree that 20 BI's at 1/2is a good starting point, but if you dont want to wait to save up $2k just to play some poker there is nothing wrong with taking shots. In our world (casinos) this is the smallest game offered and we really have no choice. I will leave the bankroll information out for now as there are many different opinions on it.
Last thing I want to add is that this needs to be a place where people compare rates and notes with little to no brags. If you are going to come on here and brag you better have some proof (I gave you some great material above) and many hours to back your claims up. For those that have been wanting to log their sessions now is the time to start. I can see many good self challenges coming out of this and more disciplined players.
Thats it for now. Let the questions begin (and reappear many times).
FWIW, one way I was convinced that my expected win rate was lower than I wnated it to be was going to pokerdope and doing variance calculations.
However -and that's the interesting part- the thing is my playstyle is constantly changing and the playing conditions also change, so I split my play history in roughly 3-4 periods in which i had different win rates.
So, after I did the pokerdope calculations I went on an unbelievable heater which was followed by a soul-crashing downswing. So, If I go
I agree that pokerdope or any type of pokervariance calculator cant really account for the constant environment change in live poker, especially at 5/10+.
For example i know this decent live reg who’s been playing 5-10 for 15 years, he’s old school so doesn’t really rely on solvers and relies more on intuition which has worked for him, however in the past 2 years games have gotten much tougher and he has moved down to 2-5. So i guess he is a winner at 5/10 overall in his career but i doubt he is a winner in the current game environment.
I think at 2/5 and below like goblegreek said , your winrate can be scoped out through your entire career and will be pretty accurate since your opponents skill level stay relatively the same.
So an UPDATE: while I’m up a bit over $13,000 since I started this in July, the inevitable DOWNSWING has struck, and after yet another two-bullet/$600 losing session yesterday, I am down to just $300 left in my sock drawer.
So I'm not the most objective person to give advice because your meteoric ascendancy into professional poker made me jealous. I'm pretty confident you are always the best player at the table in your cardroom. From your posts, your style works well for the player types. But playing professional in a low-stakes raked game is like having an easy low-wage job for an employer who can take everything away whenever. I have no doubts you could with time and practice really go pro. But from the line-checks by the pros on your hands, I conclude that you still lose money on the table when you don't have to. And in a low-stakes raked game, there is little margin for error.
All the people who care about you, Davo, will tell you: get a job and play poker. Unemployment is lower than anytime in fifty years. If you can play poker well, you have many options for fulfilling jobs that enable you to play poker.
Dammit! Company called me back to say I did NOT get the job. “We expect to hire more closets in the coming months and will keep you in mind” blah blah blah.
So now I’m truly boned. I have only $300 left in my sock drawer to play poker with!
Dammit! Company called me back to say I did NOT get the job. “We expect to hire more closets in the coming months and will keep you in mind” blah blah blah.
So now I’m truly boned. I have only $300 left in my sock drawer to play poker with!
Unlucky, head up!
Puppy day care still an option?
Ggoodluck!G
So an UPDATE: while I’m up a bit over $13,000 since I started this in July, the inevitable DOWNSWING has struck, and after yet another two-bullet/$600 losing session yesterday, I am down to just $300 left in my sock drawer.
I don’t know what to do! I wanted to avoid ever having to withdraw money from our checking account, and now that’s exactly what’s happened!
(Complicating all this is that I’ve just had a Round 2 interview for a full-time job, which, if I get it, w
How much savings do you have and what are your monthly expenses? Unfortunately the sad truth is that you probably were not rolled to be playing poker. Honestly with the spread limit structure, I don't think playing poker to make a decent living is likely to be a very viable option for you. I don't know what your hourly winnings were over six months, but winning 13k over 6 months when you have a part time job where you are working 25 hrs per week and also managing to deplete your bankroll after a 2 month downswing doesn't seem sound to me like this is viable for your personal financial situation.
How many buy-ins did you lose during your downswing?
The other thing to consider is that maybe your play has gotten worse over the last 2 months. Maybe the games have gotten harder.
Depending on how much you have saved up, probably the best thing you can do is try to find another job and not play poker again until you have 6 months worth of expenses totally separate from your poker bankroll. And don't think of playing poker professionally if you can't continue to play professionally after a 20 buy in downswing.
My results since playing poker full time at the end of last August:
In total I am now up $74,365 over 517 hours since playing full time for an hourly of $144. For 2024 so far, up $13,555 over 87 hours for an hourly of $155.
A little more detail here:
I agree that pokerdope or any type of pokervariance calculator cant really account for the constant environment change in live poker, especially at 5/10+.
This is kind of an interesting stats question. I think there are two possible explanations if the variance calculator can't explain your results
1 - your SD is consistent, but bigger than you realize
2 - your SD is variable over time (ie the games or your play style are becoming higher variance)
2 would likely violate the assumptions of the variance calculator, but from your observations, sounds like 2
I still work there, but the money crunch (the pay here is bad and I only work 25 hours a week) is getting serious, we’re spending more than we bring in.
You have to stop the bleeding ASAP. The longer anything goes on, the longer it will likely continue. Whatever you have to do to get back to covering your basic needs and expenses without losing net total is what you have to do. If that means taking a break from poker, well then that's what it means. I see players on this forum and others take breaks to go back to grinding money elsewhere constantly. It's just part of poker and life. You have to survive first.
This is kind of an interesting stats question. I think there are two possible explanations if the variance calculator can't explain your results
1 - your SD is consistent, but bigger than you realize
2 - your SD is variable over time (ie the games or your play style are becoming higher variance)
2 would likely violate the assumptions of the variance calculator, but from your observations, sounds like 2
It is pretty much a given that game conditions change dramatically. The Saturday night game is going to be different from the Tuesday afternoon. Sometimes the game will be filled with the usual faces (not necessarily "regs"), and sometimes a whale might show up to splash around.
Anyone who thinks that they have a single, well-defined win rate at a particular stake is delusional.
And…..my poker career is over. Lost the last $300 from my bankroll today.
Finish with 559 hours, $21,926 profit at $2-$100 Hold’em (with $1-$2 blinds).
And…..my poker career is over. Lost the last $300 from my bankroll today.
Finish with 559 hours, $21,926 profit at $2-$100 Hold’em (with $1-$2 blinds).
That is an incredible run, the stuff of legends. All legends end in tragedy: the collective biography of poker legends is paved with bankruptcies. Even though you went broke, we all cheer you at the finish line.
Why do you think you ran so bad at the end? The feedback on the forum to your hand histories suggests your style is exploitable. Could it possibly be that your opponents got to know your style? I would have a hard time suggesting you return to poker until you have the humility to at least consider the possibility. Focus instead now on finding a job. Think about gratitude to your family for supporting you as you tried to go pro. Any financially dependent family who tolerates professional poker's variance is truly a saint.
That is an incredible run, the stuff of legends. All legends end in tragedy: the collective biography of poker legends is paved with bankruptcies. Even though you went broke, we all cheer you at the finish line.
Why do you think you ran so bad at the end? The feedback on the forum to your hand histories suggests your style is exploitable. Could it possibly be that your opponents got to know your style? I would have a hard time suggesting you return to poker until you have the humility to at least
He ran bad? He has a winrate of like 18bb/hr. That's is pretty much the definition of a sun run in my book. What he did wrong was deciding to play poker for a living at 1/2 with high live expenses and no other form of income.
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Yeah the end was just a pretty generic downswing, imo. Some bad beats, some coolers, and some bad play.
I really think my only mistake was just not having a big enough bankroll to ride it out.
Like this is all it took to wipe out my .... It just requires SO LITTLE to go wrong—a few hands turn out differently and I’m still playing. Or even up! Just digging through my notes for the AIEV hands I lost in that stretch:
1-11: Raise JJ to 16 pre in BB 5 callers! Flop T84r. X I check checks to Button who bets 30, SB calls, I make it 130, Button goes all-in for 220, SB all-in for 150. Button has JT. Turn Ten, I lose
1-3: Limp, I raise AK to 12. UTG2 3-bets to 36. SB and UTG cold call. I 4-bet to 136, UTG2 all-in for 157, folds, I call, he has JJ, I don’t hit
1-3: Button opens I 3-bet A2dd to 35 Button calls. Flop Q74dd. I bet 25 he raises to 80 I go to 180 he calls (all-in). He has A7, I don’t hit.
12-15: I Raise KcKh to 10, a 3-bet to 35, a cold call, I 4-bet to 120, a fold, cold-caller calls. Flop Q52dds. He bets 100 I put him all-in for 180 he calls. Turn 6d River Jd. He has Kd8s I lose
12-13: Raise A5ss to 20 3 callers. Flop AJ3. Xxx I bet 20 two calls. Turn 4. Xx I bet 100 fold, all-in for 120, I call, he has A3, I don’t hit.
Like sometimes I’m making mistakes, sometimes I’m playing well, sometimes I’m ahead, sometimes I’m behind, but just with some better run-good I still have a bankroll, I’m still playing.
I just had 6.5 buy-ins. It wasn’t enough.
Like this is all it took to wipe out my .... It just requires SO LITTLE to go wrong—a few hands turn out differently and I’m still playing. Or even up! Just digging through my notes….
I don't want to be an ******* to you, but this is just normal variance. You still won at 18,5bb/hr for 500+ hours. That's pretty much the definition on sunrunning, more so in a high raked spread game like yours. If you think your dream was annihilated from bad variance you are dead wrong my guy. You sunrunned and still went broke cause:
1) too high life expenses
2) 1/2 is not a stake where you can live from poker (even if you sunrun like you did)
3) no other form of income.
The lesson you have to learn here is that poker on these stakes can't be a profession. Even if you play higher poker is a very difficult and bad profession that doesn't pay enough to live a good life in a first world country.
Get a good job and just play poker as an hobby for some side income on the side, that's the best way to approach poker nowdays. It's a dying industry, and the good times are pretty much gone and will never come back.
I wish you all the best!
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12-15: I Raise KcKh to 10, a 3-bet to 35, a cold call, I 4-bet to 120, a fold, cold-caller calls. Flop Q52dds. He bets 100 I put him all-in for 180 he calls. Turn 6d River Jd. He has Kd8s I lose
😮
Sorry to hear you are done playing! Great run though, was enjoyable to follow along.
2k is not really a bankroll and when you win your suppose to put some of those winnings in your bankroll. No one goes through their live poker career without a 2k+ downswing at some point.
I agree that 2k swings are to be expected, but when Davo opened 54s in the UTG, he burned his money.
And…..my poker career is over. Lost the last $300 from my bankroll today.
Finish with 559 hours, $21,926 profit at $2-$100 Hold’em (with $1-$2 blinds).
Probably for the best. 1/2 spread limit sounds like a truly awful game and if you can’t maintain a BR winning at ~20 BB/hr then it’s a futile endeavor.
Do you not have any other casinos around that offer No Limit? If I were you I’d get a white collar job, rebuild the BR with income and try to find 1/2 or 1/3 NL home games to get the BR up to $10-15k and then eventually shot take 2/5 NL if there’s a casino within a 2-3 hour drive where you can play a long Saturday session.
Being a “pro” 1/2 player is the absolute nut low. Literal trash collectors are crushing a 1/2 pro’s expected earnings which illustrates where a 1/2 pro fits on the totem pole. The best players I know all have cushy full time jobs which allows you to aggressively grow your roll, shot take, and play a much looser style (I don’t mean LAG I mean loose/confident where you’re not sweating a river bluff that’s also supposed to be your rent payment next week).
The $2-$100 spread-limit is a Minnesota state law—to play true no-limit in a casino I’d have to go to Iowa or Wisconsin, and it looks like a 4-hour drive. (There used to be a no-limit poker room in a nothing town right across the MN-IA border—just a 90-minute drive for me—but it shut down.)
I think I’ll just go back to my full-time career in the mortgage industry—rates are dropping, people are buying, companies are hiring, I have another interview next week—and then play $2-$100 games as a hobby on Friday nights.
This experience has taught me that playing poker for income would not make me happy.
This experience has taught me that playing poker for income would not make me happy.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying something, putting your heart into it, and deciding it's not for you in the end. It's not "quitting". You're trying things. Life only lasts so long. The balance between becoming dedicated to one thing primarily and looking deeply enough for that something is quite fine.
Good luck in whatever you do next.
The $2-$100 spread-limit is a Minnesota state law—to play true no-limit in a casino I’d have to go to Iowa or Wisconsin, and it looks like a 4-hour drive. (There used to be a no-limit poker room in a nothing town right across the MN-IA border—just a 90-minute drive for me—but it shut down.)
I think I’ll just go back to my full-time career in the mortgage industry—rates are dropping, people are buying, companies are hiring, I have another interview next week—and then play $2-$100 games as a hobby
St. Croix Turtle Lake is only 50 miles from Aces.
