Covid-19 Discussion
Has the wisdom and courage to realize that the cure has now become worse than the disease. It's time to open up. Stop moving the ball.
Hospital systems have not been overwhelmed.
Ventilators are not in shortage.
Treatments are being developed.
There is no cure or vaccine. This is not going away for four years.
The devastation of the cure:
Suicide rates picking up.
Massive economic devastation which causes depression, anxiety, obesity, again increase in suicide rates and directly impacts poorer economic areas.
Alcohol sales up 51%.
Domestic Abuse on the uprise
Child abuse on the uprise.
Hospitals that do not have COVID related issues are forced to lay off doctors and nurses as there are not enough patients to economically support it, meaning they won't have the staff to deal with COVID outbreaks.
Michael Avenatti gets released from prison
We all did our part. We sheltered (here in Pennsylvania for 5 weeks already).
Open the office buildings. Open the hair saloons. Get rid of stupid mask laws.
Continue to monitor outbreaks and in areas hospital systems become threatened, reenact tougher guidelines.
LET'S GET BACK TO WORK!
And stop shaming people that want common sense solutions. Waiting for a vaccine is stupid and unpractical.
Or you could just look at countries with massive, congested populations that had lower infection and death rates. You know, rates to the tune of 5-10x lower than ours
Oh, I'm shocked, they all implemented lockdowns and/or mask mandates.
Shocked.
Btw, thats how statistics work. Numbers are simple and pure.
I guess the other pertinent part of this is their populations abided by the mandates
Or you could just look at countries with massive, congested populations that had lower infection and death rates. You know, rates to the tune of 5-10x lower than ours
Oh, I'm shocked, they all implemented lockdowns and/or mask mandates.
Shocked.
Btw, thats how statistics work. Numbers are simple and pure.
If with "us" you mean the USA, my opinion is that covid killed more Americans than more people in other western countries because americans have, on average, horrible health conditions compared to other civilized countries.
American life expectancy was already (pre COVID) lower than that if places like Italy and Greece which are far poorer (Italy per Capita GDP is lower than that of the poorest American state).
Between horrifying dietary habits, a complete disregard for common sense water drinking and walking around, and perhaps unequal health care access, even while spending more than any country in world history per Capita in healthcare, Americans have shitty health.
So when a diseases that basically preys on frailty and almost only kills people who are already in very bad conditions arrives, it kills more in the USA than in other developed countries, because there are more bad condition people on the USA than elsewhere.
Or you could just look at countries with massive, congested populations that had lower infection and death rates. You know, rates to the tune of 5-10x lower than ours
Oh, I'm shocked, they all implemented lockdowns and/or mask mandates.
Shocked.
Btw, thats how statistics work. Numbers are simple and pure.
Sweden never mandated NPIs, had a small fraction of American mortality during the pandemic, but that "doesn't count" for some reason I know.
Stockholm is as dense as most American cities
Economic lockdowns for people under 50/60 were the real crimes but the health officials were cowards and the politicans were even worst.
It was politically very easy to just shut the economy down for everyone vs letting the virus run its course through everyone under 50/60.
What time frame you using ?
From march 2020?
When vaccine came out ?
If with "us" you mean the USA, my opinion is that covid killed more Americans than more people in other western countries because americans have, on average, horrible health conditions compared to other civilized countries.
American life expectancy was already (pre COVID) lower than that if places like Italy and Greece which are far poorer (Italy per Capita GDP is lower than that of the poorest American state).
Between horrifying dietary habits, a complete disregard for common sense water drinkin
If that was true why Brazil ranked number 2 ?
Because Brazil president bolsonaro was a copy paste of trump narrative and actions and strangely they end up both (US and Brazil) at the top of mortality rates in the world by far .
So seem policies were far important then what u attribute to poor health issues to Americans .
The anti-maskers' lack of ability to understand the difference between masks as PPE and masks as source control will never cease to amaze me. It's really not that complicated, but it brings you guys to your cognitive knees over and over again.
Well, here's a study that looked at masks as source control and concluded that they don't work. The study is from 1981, so it has been known for over forty years that they don't work as source control. That study provided conclusive evidence that in a sterile field (an operating room) with every person present being a trained medical professional adherence to the use of medical-grade masks to interdict transmission of disease failed and in fact potentiated disease transmission.
Obviously nobody in the general public will do better than trained medical professionals and you cannot do better in terms of environment than a sterile operating room. It was therefore impossible for masks to work -- this was known forty years ago.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...
LOL Gorgo. Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Well, here's a study that looked at masks as source control and concluded that they don't work. The study is from 1981, so it has been known for over forty years that they don't work as source control. That study provided conclusive evidence that in a sterile field (an operating room) with every person present being a trained medical professional adherence to the use of medical-grade masks to interdict transmission of disease failed and in fact potentiated disease transmission.
Obviously nobody
Right. Your tiny study (by one guy with no indication of peer-review) from 1981 is definitive.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fu...
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pn...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/...
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/scie...
What is your degree in again?
Also I love your insinuation that you get anything but absolutely bodied when you try me.
Right. Your tiny study (by one guy with no indication of peer-review) from 1981 is definitive.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fu...
https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pn...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/...
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/scie...
What is your degree in again?
Also I love your insinuation that you get an
Ok, I'll take your six and raise you 12.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1157412/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7379387/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2766345/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10....
https://europepmc.org/article/med/117604...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20524498...
https://pubs.asahq.org/anesthesiology/ar...
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/...
https://europepmc.org/article/med/252946...
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi...
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10....
Your move smartass.
Ok, I'll take your six and raise you 12.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1157412/
This one was about physical bodies contaminating a room more than anything at all about masks, and there was no reason to suspect any of the participants were ever ill. Completely irrelevant. Not a great start. Indicates nothing at all about preventing transmission of an illness via respiration since none of the participants were sick.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7379387/
does not support your thesis
Well I added the reason your list is...we'll just say unimpressive...underneath each link above. In summary, they are all about post-operation infections in a sterile environment with no reason to suspect any of the scrubbed in participants is ill - this will yield extremely rare opportunities for infection in the first place. This leads to exactly what nearly every paper you cited says: not enough data to conclude.
However, they are all older studies. We studied the crap out of this the past few years, and they are more relevant studies, since they are about transmitting viruses via respiration, not an open wound. So, there is no longer insufficient data to make a conclusion.
You tried.
You were the one talking about source control. So I provided a study looking at source control in a surgical environment. We knew in 1981 that masks don't work to block bacterial infections in an operating room. We know this because Neil Orr proved it. A series of studies after his tried to refute his findings and managed only to reinforce them including one in which the masks were loaded with non-harmful microspheres and then worn by the people in the OR and the contaminant, simulating what you would expel from your lungs if you were infected, was found in the surgical wounds
If masks won't stop bacteria in a surgical theater then how are they going to stop viruses which are a thousand times smaller? The answer is they won't. Masks are to make people feel good, that's all.
Yes. The source of viral spread. None of the surgical staff in any of those studies had any reason to suspect they might be a source of infection or they wouldn't be in surgery. See how that defeats the entire study right out of the gate?
Plus, inhaling a virus and infecting an open wound with bacteria are too entirely different things. Dissimilar enough that they should not be compared. This is basic stuff. Do you have a humiliation kink or something?
What is your degree in, again?
Yes. The source of viral spread. None of the surgical staff in any of those studies had any reason to suspect they might be a source of infection or they wouldn't be in surgery. See how that defeats the entire study right out of the gate?
Plus, inhaling a virus and infecting an open wound with bacteria are too entirely different things. Dissimilar enough that they should not be compared. This is basic stuff. Do you have a humiliation kink or something?
What is your degree in, again?
From the study
There was no increase in wound infections
when masks were discarded in I980; in fact
there was a significant (p
8 infections which did occur (Table ii) bore no
relation to the throat or nose cultures from the
the theatre team, which from time to time yielded
Staphylococcus albus or Staph. aureus.
I've got a masters degree in BS detection. You triggered that a long time ago.
If that was true why Brazil ranked number 2 ?
Because Brazil president bolsonaro was a copy paste of trump narrative and actions and strangely they end up both (US and Brazil) at the top of mortality rates in the world by far .
So seem policies were far important then what u attribute to poor health issues to Americans .
Mexico and Peru fared a lot worse than both the USA and Brazil, according to the WHO, in the only number that matters to describe how bad it went with COVID (excess deaths as a % of the population), and Peru had the most extreme lockdowns worldwide.
USA isn't even in the top25 (no first world country was to be fair)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-0...
Top 4 are all southern american countries with wildly different national and local policies , also suggesting Latinos very probably have some genetic predisposition that makes them weaker to COVID than other ethnicities.
Then there was the detail of Brazil, like the USA (and mexico), being federal with all lockdowns powers completely out of the hand of the president who never decided anything about domestic NPIs both in the USA and Brazil (and mexico).
But i guess the temptation to consider right-wing presidents with 0 powers to enact any domestic NPI responsible for deaths , and not communist leaders in Mexico, is too strong for people who are horribly biased and completely uninterested about what actually happened and what caused COVID mortality.
I mean Peru is first in the chart and unlike the other 3, had firmly the power of violent NPIs in the hand of the national government.
Peri was praised by those people who pushed for the strongest, most violent state violence possible to answer COVID, then still had the worst worldwide COVID mortality (as measured in the only terms that matter, excess deaths) and got quickly memory holed because evil people gonna be evil through and through, instead of admitting they were completely, utterly wrong about any purported efficacy of violently imposed NPIs, who never saved a single life whenever they were implemented
Mexico and Peru fared a lot worse than both the USA and Brazil, according to the WHO, in the only number that matters to describe how bad it went with COVID (excess deaths as a % of the population), and Peru had the most extreme lockdowns worldwide.
USA isn't even in the top25 (no first world country was to be fair)
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-0...
Top 4 are all southern american countries with wildly different national and local policies , also suggesting Latinos very p
ha please....
its utter bs.
china had incredibly hardcore lockdown for years for covid .
u want to go to % now ?
tell me how the hell did china and india did so great compare to brasil and china then ?
ill give u another data then .
in Canada Alberta was proposing exactly what u speak of.
A total reopening for covid restriction in early summer 2021, similar wisdom of trump and borsolino narrative.
couple weeks later they got totally clobbered and went extremely close to a total shutdown of their healthcare system and went pleading to other provinces, that kept many restrictive measures, to help them....
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/d...
Alberta's chief medical health officer now says the province's controversial lifting of all COVID-19 public health restrictions in early July set the trajectory for the explosive fourth wave that has pushed its health-care system to the breaking point.
Dr. Deena Hinshaw also said in a Zoom meeting with Primary Care Network physicians on Monday that she "deeply" regrets her part in contributing to a narrative that "COVID's over."
As of Monday, there were 18,395 active cases across Alberta, the highest nationwide. By comparison, Ontario, a province with more than three times the population, has one-third the number of active cases.
It has put the greatest strain on Alberta's health-care system to date in the pandemic, with about 800 people being treated in hospital as of Monday — 200 of them in intensive care units.
And trust me in that part of the woods there isnt leftish view there....
its almost like texas wall to wall.
Peru ?
yeah they probably have one of the best healthcare system in the world compare to western countries right ?
https://ballardbrief.byu.edu/issue-brief...
The current healthcare systems in Peru leave millions without easy access to medical attention, many of whom are also living in poverty.1, 2 It is difficult for the governing bodies to include everyone in healthcare coverage plans and make the necessary medical resources accessible.3, 4 The lack of qualified medical professionals, in part due to a migration of doctors out of the country to seek better opportunities elsewhere, also contributes to the problem.5 As can be expected, these and other factors lead to greater amounts of illness and deaths than other countries that have more developed healthcare.6 These problems have also caused a decrease in the confidence Peruvians have in healthcare professionals and modern medical systems, with many often turning to less effective traditional practices instead.7 Several organizations are working to help solve this social problem, with the best of them working on administering healthcare to the vulnerable, building connections between modern and traditional medicine, and providing much needed medical supplies.
https://blogs.worldbank.org/latinamerica...
The 2022 National Household Survey (ENAHO) reveals that 7 out of 10 people who needed medical care did not receive it
For example, 52 percent of primary healthcare centers under the Ministry of Health and regional governments lack medical professionals, while a significant 98 percent lack the essential infrastructure and equipment necessary for proper patient care.
peru ?
jfc at least compare something with similar health care capabilities...
Look, i compared the USA to other first world countries to begin with and said it fared worse because of underlying, far worse, pre COVID health conditions of the population.
Then you said "wait but Brazil? See bolsonaro is like trump and that proves lack of lockdowns is what caused COVID deaths more than elsewhere".
To that I mention mexico, where AMLO, a communist, did the same as trump and bolsonaro (without any power to implement NPIs, the president talked covid down and personally disregarded COVID restrictions).
That was necessary to prove it has nothing to do with right-wing libertarian tendencies, given a far left radical collectivist did the same.
And then i mention Peru.
Peru is a comparison to Brazil.
Not to the USA.
Peru proves beyond any reasonable doubt stricter lockdowns wouldn't have saved lives in Brazil. They don't work, at all, they don't save lives, they just destroy more lives.
Peru per Capita GDP is only slightly lower than Brazil per Capita GDP.
If you could read Yoh wouldn't answer with "Peru healthcare is bad". Ofc it is, but Brazil healthcare is horrible as well.
As for China: never believe any Chinese government produced data about anything.
Notice that to disprove efficacy of x I just need one data point where x doesn't work, while to claim x works, it has to always work everywhere it is used.
That's how science works. One example of failure, you discard the causal hypothesis.
I don't need to prove a negative more than finding at least one example of Y not following X, to say X doesn't cause Y.
You were the one talking about source control. So I provided a study looking at source control in a surgical environment. We knew in 1981 that masks don't work to block bacterial infections in an operating room. We know this because Neil Orr proved it. A series of studies after his tried to refute his findings and managed only to reinforce them including one in which the masks were loaded with non-harmful microspheres and then worn by the people in the OR and the contaminant, simulating what y
Here is the answer to your question in t... The main difference is that Covid is a virus spread through the air and what is trying to be restricted in surgical theatres is bacteria spread (which is not caused by airborne particles).
"Presently, research has just discovered that wearing masks is absolutely essential at all times, particularly when in direct contact with patients (who already wear surgical masks) (Sung et al., 2018). Recent data also show great significance of inhalation protection via masks"
The principle problem with Covid is that it can be spread when a person is asymptomatic (or has symptoms that don't make it obvious they have Covid). When the pandemic was at its height wearing masks could reduce the spread indoors in a significant way especially if the indoor area was ventilated. In Georgia where different school districts had different mask wearing rules, the districts that required everyone to wear masks had roughly 35% less Covid infections than those that didn't.
About I can say to this drivel is yikes.
I'm sure there won't be any takers, but I'm going to leave these two absolute mouth-breaters for someone else to deal with.
jfc
edit to add: what do you think the chances are that Luciom will see that I made up the story about where I worked to trick him into admitting he understands there are many variables that affect how many infections there are in a cohort. Remember when he tried that exact comparison of Spain/Italy to say masks didn't work? As you can
Mouth breathers? So its personal attacks now I see. I thought you were more classy but it seems it's just a ploy to act high and mighty.
Instead of being continually smug and condescending in this topic even after being shown you are wrong, have some humility.
Luciom you absolutely conquered these covid debates in 24 hours.
Well done.
Luciom,
Devil's advocate here, you mentioned about the violence and damage done to the young (under 20) regarding the covid restrictions imposed on them even when there was 0 risk.
Can you elaborate on that because I am not so sure that much quantifiable damage was actually done to them regarding the 1.5 years of restrictions placed on them.
Mouth breathers? So its personal attacks now I see. I thought you were more classy but it seems it's just a ploy to act high and mighty.
Instead of being continually smug and condescending in this topic even after being shown you are wrong, have some humility.
[QUOTE=Tien]
And let's not forget the fat and unhealthy people that are always having "long covid symptoms" due to being unhealthy and fat. But labelling it off as long covid issues. The statistical irrelevance would decrease even further if we took that into consideration.
[/quote]
If the shoe fits. You are not only not a doctor and should not try to make medical diagnoses, you have not met these people in order to diagnose them. You have zero medical training (obvious). What you said here and doubled-down on later is not only incredibly stupid, it's horrifically offensive. Further, it's monumentally dangerous to society.
You earned your label. You will only be laughed at from here on out, too. That's what you earn when you obstinately refuse to listen and then say monstrously disgusting things like this.
Luciom,
Devil's advocate here, you mentioned about the violence and damage done to the young (under 20) regarding the covid restrictions imposed on them even when there was 0 risk.
Can you elaborate on that because I am not so sure that much quantifiable damage was actually done to them regarding the 1.5 years of restrictions placed on them.
We have several elements to be able to claim the damage was massive (ofc i am not only talking about the USA, which actually locked down less than average, although some places closed schools longer than average).
Just some examples
Notorious libertarian UNICEF
COVID:19 Scale of education loss ‘nearly insurmountable’, warns UNICEF
https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/co...
Just this
//In low- and middle-income countries, learning losses to school closures have left up to 70 per cent of 10-year-olds unable to read or understand a simple text, up from 53 per cent pre-pandemic.//
is enough to claim "immense damage" to minors worldwide , because of lockdowns, imho.
Btw it wasn't "1.5 years of restrictions".
That was in jan 2022 (20 months into lockdowns, more or less), with 600+ million children still facing school closures, as per article.
//
Again from unicef
"Government-imposed lockdowns, school closures, and disruption of services (including mental health care) have led to increased reports of fear and stress, anxiety, depression, anger, irritability, inattention, alcohol/substance, along with irregular physical activity and sleep patterns," she added.
https://www.unicef-irc.org/article/2163-....
How do we quantify? i mean putting innocent minors under house arrest is damaging for them. Pro lockdown people usually understand that, when it's about minors caged because they are illegal aliens. When it's their own fellow citizen childrens, for some reason they don't understand that.
//
Then there are many unquantifiable elements like, couple formation for young people: how many people didn't have the chance to meet their future spouse because of man-made disasters (lockdowns)? down the line that translates into some women never having children because their fertility windows ends before they managed to get a stable partner. How much? we don't know, but those missing babies down the line are lives lost to lockdowns as well.
Many countries are having out-of-trend natality drops (fertility was low , stable, declining very slowly, in most countries pre-covid), that are clearly linked to that to some extent.
* South Korea already has the world's lowest fertility rate at 0.78 as of 2022. The projections paint a darker picture of demographic trends for South Korea than they did two years ago, when authorities forecast that the fertility rate would bottom out at 0.7 in 2024 before rising again *
https://time.com/6488894/south-korea-low...
//
Lockdowns weren't always followed by well crafted policies to help people who lost jobs because of them, that made poor families with kids suffer immensely in not-very-rich countries.
How do we quantify that? hard to do.
Some studies tried to, for example how many people who tried to save granma understood their choices led directly to children been beaten and abused more often?
*From parental issues of job and finance to child well-being and maltreatment: A systematic review of the pandemic-related spillover effect*
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...
//
For many poor children across the world , and this includes the USA, schoolmeals are the only decent, nutritious meals they get all day long. What does it mean for their development if they stop getting those meals for 1 year or more at crucial stages of development? otoh others have more daily access to junk food even if their families don't lack money, so they overeat staying at home and develop other problems
*A hidden side of the COVID-19 pandemic in children: the double burden of undernutrition and overnutrition*
https://equityhealthj.biomedcentral.com/...
///////
I could keep going but the idea is that what countries did to minors, with lockdowns, is the worst crime against humanity in peacetime every committed in human history by a very large margin, at least in my opinion nothing comes close to such an aggregate damage, although i admit finding a single, final number to quantify this atrocity is hard to do.
It's our generation Holocaust, the "absolute evil that should never be repeated at any cost" we should learn from and build our future societies on, except this time "hitler" won and there won't be any reckoning nor Nuremberg.
