LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Seriously though, clearly healthy teammates. Lebron had zero playoff run where his top teammates didn't miss games. Lebron won in 12, 13 and 16. And in 14 & 15, it essentially came down to teammate health. So that's potentially 5 in a row with MJ-like luck in teammate health.

What would it take for MJ to even get to the Finals without Phil Jackson? Or win a playoff series without Pippen?

So blocks isn’t an Important part of defence ?
Only 4 times a players reach 200+ steals and 100+blocks .
Mj got 2 of those times , 87 and 88 (dpoy) .
While MJ making a wooping 35 and 37 ppg simultaneously….
If that isn’t dominating both end of the floor was is it ?
But hey it’s nice to see u just put half stats to support bad arguments .

I don’t know how to say it clearer .
U call MJ egotistical .
I don’t know many defensive players being called egotistical .
Do u ?

Are you deliberately playing the part of a casual fan to bring some realism to my points?

MJ might miss a ring with pipen being sick in game 7 in 1990 vs the pistons .
That would of been a 4-peat !
But let’s pass this under the rug with bad faith arguments saying MJ never had hardship from his teammates .

So block isn’t an important part of defence ?
Yeah I’m the Casual thinking MJ only won because of pipen or Phil Jackson’s …

Doesn't the fact that this has to be brought up pretty much prove my point? I mean you're literally bringing up Pippen having a headache for one game. Do you know that Love got a concussion during the 2016 Finals, missed a game and came back a shell of his former self and that was probably the healthiest Lebron's teammates had ever been for a Finals run?

I know we're getting to the subtle part of the argument that you won't understand but I'll elaborate for others. Blocking is a reasonably good outcome for a team (though not the best), the person that got the block isn't necessarily the person who contributed most to the outcome. In case of MJ, if you do any type of tape analysis, he very often gets credit (steals & blocks) for something the whole team helped with. When you're sorting by steals and blocks, you're literally ignoring like 95% of what's going on. And MJ doesn't grade super-high here though he was well above-average for a guard.

There's a reason why when Lebron leaves the team, the team's defense tends to fall apart, whereas the Bulls defense in 93-94 actually improved from the previous season by a considerable amount without MJ.

Love was a tertiary player alongside Lebron and pales in importance to a 2nd option that significantly out-produces the league MVP and "closes"

MJ would sweep any Finals with a sidekick that outplayed MVP's like Shaq, Barkley or Malone, which is the natural step up from going 6-0 with a sidekick that couldn't reach Horry's best in the Finals (0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals).

Lebron needs franchise players at sidekick that can match or lead hm in scoring for entire playoff runs (Wade, Kyrie, AD) and represent the kind of talent that doesn't need great chemistry to win - this greater scoring help and talent-based approach is why Lebron needs more help than Jordan, who only needed role-playing scrappers and time to develop good chemistry.. This is skillset based - i.e. expert jumpshooters have the capacity for a coach to come along one day and install a ball movement offense, while a high-scoring ball-dominator (Luka, Lebron) never does

* Wade played every game in 2011 playoffs (goat choke by Lebron)

* Wade played every game in 2014 Playoffs (record loss)

* Mo played every game in 2009 playoffs (historic upset loss and choke)

* Kyrie played every game in 2017 Playoffs

* Love 21 of 22 games in the 2018 Playoffs.

And I just listed a few - Lebron had mostly healthy teammates.. So again, what would it take for Lebron to 3-peat or have dynasty?.. Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love weren't nearly enough, while a Jeff Bezos version of Pippen (AD) isn't nearly enough.

Maybe if we teamed him up with Jokic AND Giannis?... I'm not sure he would 3-peat with Jokic and Giannis due to his history of weak brand of ball and chemistry, thereby underachieving favored talent (losing with preseason favorites)

Btw, in the 2014 ECF, Wade was near-equal-scoring partner to Lebron against the #1 defense by averaging 20/5/5 (23 ppg for Lebron)..

For the playoffs overall, Wade had higher PER, WS/48, efficiency and pace-adjusted scoring than 93' Pippen when the Bulls were trying to 3-peat just like the Heat... Meanwhile, the Heat lost to the Spurs by 13 ppg, while Lebron averaged 13 less than MJ (28 vs 41).

Of course Lebron had the 7 turnovers in the 4th quarter of the critical Game 4 that swung the 09 ECF.. And Love averaged 21/11 against the only top 5 SRS opponents that Lebron faced in the 18' playoffs (Raptors, Warriors), so Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick (no carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades)..

He's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he needs more scoring help to offset his brand.. Accordingly, he needs more help than jumpshooters like Curry, MJ or Kobe who could score 40 while the ball moves and maintain sufficient brand at high volume to beat top teams with lesser scoring help like Klay, Pippen or Pau.. It's night and day - the best expert jumpshooters are far superior to Lebron.

Curious why MJ's extremely talented teammates seem to never score with high efficiency in important games. Could it be that MJ sucks at creating for others?

Twog, we've already established that according to your own metric of title equity, all these talented teammates of Lebron had zero title equity without Lebron (other than Wade who won with Shaq who won 3 without him), while in MJ's case, he had zero title equity without Pippen or Phil Jackson. So why all this nonsense? What help did Lebron get from all these players who themselves had no title equity? If they were so good, why did they not win anything without Lebron? If MJ was so good, why did he never win anything without Phil Jackson?

So what , MJ lost a probable ring with a literally entire team failing (15/63 FG) him , not just one player like pipen lol (1/10 or grant (3/17) ….
So yeah MJ like LeBron lost ring due to teammates but u don’t see it being used as being the goat for MJ because it’s a failure regardless.
Only u thinks failures are great arguments to use for goat debates.

Are u telling us with what MJ had before pipen or Jackson, he had enough to win titles ?
Why didn’t Phil and pippen win without MJ in 94 ?
Why a rusty mj in 95 transform a barely break even team to a stretch of 13 win 4 lost, the upon his return if MJ didn’t had a big impact ?

Lol can’t even admit « definitely » not a top 10 …
Guess what he sure ain’t even a top 20 easily .

Mj could of do everything he wanted but he respected the roles of others doing their jobs .

If MJ was bad at creating shots , explain to me how vs the lakers in 91 he was able to beat magic in assist in the first 4 games with 47 asst vs magic 42 asst ?
Mj wanted to beat magic at his own games while scoring more obviously and MJ did even less turn over then magic .
Mj stats vs lakers was 31 ppg 11 ass 6 rbn .
Mj could pass if he wanted but smart for him to make sure the shot was made by him when it counted for not reverting to excuses of « I made the right play but I lost a ring because my teammates missed an easy shots » ….like LeBron .

There was a brief run of games where the Bulls were injured at point guard positions and they put Mike at pure point. I mean I had never seen anything like the butter just slicing thru the D effortlessly and dishing at will.

Can u explain this to me candybar .
The 90 was a weak era (your opinion correct ?)
U seem to value pippen very highly.
And yet pippen wouldn’t even be top 6 for sure in the 90 but you seem to place him highly in all time great list

It doesn’t add up .

What failures? Did you lose track of the argument again? Or for that matter, are you aware of what happened in 2016? Twog is one of the worst posters of all time and you're somehow multiple levels below him in terms of basic comprehension.

What does this have to do with title equity? Twog said the actual # of titles is good enough approximation for title equity. So why not look at title equity for MJ without Phil? 8 seasons, 0 titles. 0 title equity. If you have a problem with that methodology, go argue with twog.

I know you don't have the ability to understand this, but for the benefit of others, Pippen played such a large and complex role for the Bulls that it's difficult to tease out his impact vs MJ's (or for that matter Phil's), which means we have a fairly wide range for his overall impact. Pippen is probably somewhere in the top-30 range, but I think it's reasonable to have him as low as around 50. I'm not sure we can conclusively rule him out for top 10, given his two-way impact, team success and the general portability and impact profile for players like him in general.

Is this why his teammates on the Wizards were told to pass the ball to him, lest they be benched in favor of those who would?

Are you trying to set some kind of personal record for maximum incoherence? You're saying MJ passed a ton, but also didn't pass to his teammates because he didn't want his teammates to be blamed for not winning, but then his teammates are to blame for the time he lost because they missed easy shots? Like what the **** is going on here, how is it even possible to lose the plot this badly in the middle of a single post, are you okay?

You should stick to things that are within your general ability to understand. This is multiple levels beyond you at this point. In case anyone else is wondering, obviously for all-time great rankings, players are only compared to their era, otherwise MJ is probably not even top-20 all time at this point. The 90's were a weak era both due to talent pool not expanding particularly fast and expansion and while we should consider this context when we evaluate their accomplishments, but ultimately players should be compared to others that played in the same era.

With that said, Scottie Pippen had more team-level success than any other player (including MJ) in the 90's. It's funny to me that MJ fans are all about the rings and team success until we start to talk about his teammates. I think you can reasonably have Pippen as high as #3 in terms of overall career value in the 90's and while putting him in the top 10 takes a lot of mental gymnastics and evaluating everything in his favor, but still not as egregious as concluding that MJ is above all three of Kareem, Lebron and Russell.

lol the MJ PG experiment:

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/1989/04/09/...

Just incredible.

I didn’t loose track at all….u complained lebron lost ring due to teammates having health problem not being 100% .
Well it happens to everyone and mj did suffer it as well like lebron .

Twog is right , equity is the numbers titles divide by years of playing .
Sorry if u now cherry picks years to make sure MJ had zero equity .
I could take the first 8 years of lebron as well and how many titles he got ?
Ah yes 0 .
There is players I take before lebron in title equity , mj and magic and it ain’t even close .

It’s very coherent of u to possibly put pippen in top 10 ….and yet pippen couldn’t win anything without mj .
Pippen didn’t win anything in college , when mj retired or wherever else he played !
pippen never been a winner of anything without mj while mj did win in other instances .

Have u ever at least check teammates of mj on the wizard .
What u expect them to do lol .
The funny thing is despite what u say about passing the ball to mj , Hamilton the second best players on this team had is best scoring career lol…
The rest were players
(beside Laettner who was at that time a single digit scoring with or without mj) averaging single digit in scoring for their career anyway , that ain’t mj fault ….

What I’m saying is mj could do anything he wanted in the court but to win , mj took the surest way to win and it’s him being a scorer , not trying to do everything on court to dominate every stats but losing titles aka lebron .
Mj just wanted to prove he could be a great passer like magic and he did and still won.

Well thx for making a lot of sense saying mj wouldn’t even top 20 .
Btw u seem to consider mj only dominating in the 90s but maybe u didn’t know but mj was the best players some years in the 80s too…
It shouldn’t surprise u since u claim lebron was the best even if his teams weren’t ….like mj in the end of the 80s !
But I guess u will find a way to diminish the 80s era as well ….

I agree that the Bulls could easily have lost to the 94' Rockets because I believe the Rockets had the better roster and conditions were perfect for Pippen to have one of his bed-wettings that causes near-loss or loss - Horry had already played better in the Finals than Pippen ever had and was the type of clutch alpha "dog" that Pippen melts to - the confident Horry also had no respect for Pippen and said that he was certain to outplay Pippen like Schrempf, X-Man, and many other forwards had done.

But the Bulls would still be heavy favorites because their 1st option never dropped the ball and they had championship chemistry and brand of ball.. Plus they were great defensively.. But they were outmatched at the PF, center and vastly outmatched at the point guard spot (Cassell, Maxwell, Smith destroy Paxson), while potentially having a problem at the 3

And btw, the I just tipped the iceberg of Jordan destroying Hakeem in the NBA - there are many more highlights of him dunking on Hakeem and finishing over him.. Just search youtube - I recommend searching for "Jordan 34 1991 Rockets" where he finishes over Hakeem at least 10 times in spectacular fashion.. Even off a drop-step with the left hand like Hakeem is a 1st grader.. And that passage that Hakeem stated on MJ was from his book where he has an entire passage of Jordan lauding him like a god.

Bro, I agree that the Rockets had a shot against the Bulls because everyone vastly overrates the Bulls' cast and doesn't realize how much MJ was carrying them (even though the stats show it clearly).

Specifically, from 89' to 91', BJ and Pippen improved 4 ppg and Grant none, yet the Bulls went from trash team to goat team.. So the point is that if anyone else won a title while getting 35-41 ppg and 15-20 more than all teammates, everyone would say their cast was complete garbage, and when we look at the data, we see that the Bulls' cast had barely improved from their 89' production levels and were infact this type of trash that needed 35-41 with complete carrying of scoring load.

The winning spotlight simply inflates the cast beyond what they really were (barely better than their trash 89' version)

btw, the only way this kind of marginal improvement by a few role players can take a trash team to goat team is with great development of chemistry and strategy (brand of ball).. And it would be impossible for the league scoring and usage leader to fit into this kind of championship development and brand, unless they were the GOAT - no one else in history was good enough to carry the league's biggest burden (usage or scoring leader) and still play a championship brand of ball (win title), except the GOAT did it 5 times.. Only the goat combined goat individual stats/achievement with goat team success
.

It's 2/3 of the season done and LeBron extends his lead over Jordan.

At 39 years old, having 20 seasons under his belt, LeBron will soon break the record of the oldest player to have made all-nba team. And good enough to be all-nba 2nd team.

13 all-nba 1st team
4 all-nba 2nd team
3 all-nba 3rd team

Team Jordan that for over a decade hated on LeBron has to be straight up flabbergasted at this point.

It's always clear as day how little someone knows about basketball when they reduce their analysis of the game down to BPM. But its not surprising you are a simple box score watcher and don't actually watch NBA games.

Let's have a rundown about little Matt R. knows about basketball:

- Claims Jamal Murray is mediocre as a player.
- Says the 2016 Warriors are overrated.
- Says Jordan prevented Tim Duncan from winning in the 90s (When Tim Duncan did in fact win in 1999 and was a rookie in 1998)
- Claims LeBron would have trouble in the 80s.