LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
It's also interesting that MJ's accomplishments and attributes over the years are kind of combined even though he never really had them altogether. Early career MJ was an athletic marvel, but also wasn't quite as skilled as his later self, was a bit small and easily bothered by physical defense and, of course, a huge ball hog. Later MJ was bigger, far more well-rounded and evolved into a great team player, but was no longer the gravity defying Air Jordan with unreal first step.
I wrote this earlier but it's hilarious that when twog is talking about athleticism, he's using MJ from when he was at his athletic best (at around 190-200) and is trying his best to compare to Lebron after he's bulked up (maybe around 270) but now that we're talking about weight, he's trying to compare MJ that's fully bulked up (at around 220) that wasn't nearly as athletic as his earlier self, and comparing him to young Lebron (240-250) when he was athletically very much like MJ in his early days but bigger and taller.
Lebron being around 50 pounds heavier (whether you compare skinny versions or bulked up versions) with comparable athleticism and 4 inches of height is a huge difference in terms of physical abilities. I think Lebron also lost less athleticism by adding muscle than MJ (skinny MJ was slightly more athletic skinny Lebron but I think thick Bron and thick MJ were more or less equal athletically). The very fact that MJ lost a ton of athleticism by bulking up (but still ending up far skinner than even skinny Lebron) but everyone thought that made him a better player says a ton about the importance of strength.
He lacks endurance
He lacks quickness and agility to guard guys off screens like Klay (can't defend 2's), and obviously can't move his feet vs 1's like MJ
Lebron is a bulky and often clumsy player that lacks fluidity and this is reflected in his chemistry and teams compared to MJ
He's also a low flyer off 2 legs compared to MJ, who was the goat combo leaper (goat off 1 or 2 legs)
Oh, and baby hands
Talking about a playoff series from his 20th season, where he was obviously injured to downplay his endurance vs a guy that only played 15 while taking 4.5 seasons of vacations in there is impressive even for you
Kareem is the only guy you can really say matches Lebron's endurance and he slowed way down at the end, while Lebron is still a top 10 guy in year 21
Absolutely there's more ways for a good player to generate an advantage over peers (spacing, hand-off defense, defensive 3 second), so this yields higher advanced box stats like PER and also raw stats like PPG, yet Jordan still leads them all
The league allows 20 more PPG than previous eras, most of which goes to star players
Do you know how PER works?
You brought up game 7s. Here are the numbers in game 7 playoffs.
For game 6 (also important)
LeBron James has averaged 29.0 points, 9.8 rebounds and 7.9 assists in 24 games in game sixes in his career.
Michael Jordan averaged 31.3 points, 6.3 assists and 6.2 rebounds in 13 games in game sixes in his career.
I'm taking Bran.
If you want to break down the game further within the lines. I'm still taking Bran.
Bill Russell went 11-1 in the finals, is 6-0>11-1 because Russell lost 1 time in the finals?
Now add in MJs 2 x Game 5 first round elimination games. Still clear cut LeBron?
They’ve both been killers in the playoffs imo, that’s the point. The myth is LeBron is not clutch across his career because he choked in 2011, when we have a huge weight of clutch game 6 / game 7 performances since then that prove otherwise.
As an aside, Rafiki ignored those game 7 stats the first time the point was made so I don’t expect him to reply a second time (a feature of this thread). But the reason he’s taking MJ anyway is how he feels about it, and this thread is conclusive prove that you can’t change how people feel about the past.
65 games would be missing 1 game in 2012. 7 games in 2020 and 2021.
Christ, do you ever think before posting?
?
Ok i just went through very fast without being precise so yeah for 2012 but it ain’t 1 season that will break the trend of missing a LOT of games for more then a decade …..
And even if it missed 1 games in 2012 it still wasn’t a full season so who knows if he would have played it all shrug .
Point is 55-70 is a number of game he usually plays regardless if it’s a short season or not right ?
For the rest of your post :
2019-20 lakers played 71 games LeBron played 67 games missing 4 ( yeah a good number but lucky the season got short again I suppose …..)
2020-21 lakers played 72 games LeBron played 45 games missing 27 ( 37% games miss )
2021-22 laker played 82 games LeBron played 56 games missing 26 games (31% games miss)
So I don’t see where u get your 7 games …
the guy played only once 82 games in 21 years ….
It’s just a fact LeBron james miss a ton of games .
Not just him but it’s the kind of era we have …
?
Ok i just went through very fast without being precise so yeah for 2012 but it ain’t 1 season that will break the trend of missing a LOT of games for more then a decade …..
And even if it missed 1 games in 2012 it still wasn’t a full season so who knows if he would have played it all shrug .
Point is 55-70 is a number of game he usually plays regardless if it’s a short season or not right ?
For the rest of your post :
2019-20 lakers played 71 games LeBron played 67 games missing 4 ( yeah a good
Bro you tried to take an average across all seasons when literally 3 of them were significantly shortened, therefore your math doesn't work.
Take the L and move on instead of doubling down on your ignorance. That your first reaction wasn't just to say "my bad I see where I screwed up" and instead you doubled down is frankly embarassing.
Jeez if the season was only 65 games and you played 65 games you must have still missed 17 games huh? ****ing facepalm.
Jordan retired twice because of mental fatigue.
Give it a rest.
Bran has more endurance and stamina than Jordan, end of story.
Typical answer for a guy who never play at national level in any sport .
If u think playing 2A baseball at the level mj played aren’t athletes and it just vacation i got news for u ….
Probably MJ worked even harder then when he played basketball because it’s a games he mentality and his body isn’t familiar with .
https://www.ryanweissbaseball.com/blogs/...
AA Division Baseball
The MiLB AA division, also known as Double-A, is where you find difficult competition and a lot of talent. These are the baseball players that have the potential to be playing in the MLB within very few seasons. It is very difficult for baseball players to make it to the Double-A level because the competition is much tougher, which is why it is considered the division that weeds out most MiLB baseball players.
Baseball players who get the opportunity to play in the Double-A division have to have a strong physical ability as well as mental ability. The division is usually composed of players who have worked their way up from lower divisions, veteran baseball players from foreign leagues with professional baseball experience, and occasionally you might see an MLB Draft pick placed directly in the Double-A division, but it is rare.
The baseball players playing in the MiLB Double-A division usually see higher salaries and have the possibility to jump straight to playing in the MLB and not playing in the next division. Some of the baseball players in the Double-A decision might even have MLB experience.
In the Double-A division, there are also 30 teams, each divided into three different MiLB leagues, which include
Double-A Central
Double-A Northeast
Double-A South
What would Chamberlain have to do to merit consideration? Obscene scoring, obscene rebounding, obscene blocked shots, obscene minutes played, iron man games played, and spearheading the two GOAT teams (to that point) to the title isn't doing it for him. His FG% was strangely weak admittedly for the first half of his career, say compared to Shaq or Kareem. FT% of course. There's a stat researcher putting him on about 8 blocks per game in traceable games. That's a whole lot of triple doubles. And an influence on the games he's in like no other.
Bro you tried to take an average across all seasons when literally 3 of them were significantly shortened, therefore your math doesn't work.
Take the L and move on instead of doubling down on your ignorance. That your first reaction wasn't just to say "my bad I see where I screwed up" and instead you doubled down is frankly embarassing.
Jeez if the season was only 65 games and you played 65 games you must have still missed 17 games huh? ****ing facepalm.
huh ?
i did say my bad for the 2012 season so u want me to take the REAL numbers instead of a good approximation ? fine ?
tell me what is the big difference ...
including this year to be even more precise since 2012...
849 game played on 1010.
161 game miss almost 2 season...
missing 16% of the time around 13 games per season, plays 69 games.
that is since he was 28 !
since his 34 (around the age mj retired in 1998), lebron miss 26% of games in regular season !
played 333 games on 452.
and then i hear MJ would not dominate anymore because too tired and old ????
lol thinking mj missing so often like lebron he wouldnt be in great shaped to be all nba for many years past 1998...
This is completely wrong. I'll leave it as an exercise for others as to what Montrealcorp did (because he is who he is) and why that's wrong in a hilarious way.
FWIW, Lebron missed 9.1 games per season on average, MJ 10.5. And that's despite playing 20 seasons to MJ's 15 and Lebron spending the tail end of his career in the fast-paced load management era. Their MPG is also almost identical, again, despite the fact that MPG for top players has trended down and Lebron spent far more of his caree
how in the hell u arrive at that number saying lebron missed less games per season then MJ ???
Lebron played one time an entire regular season Mj played 9 full regular season and once 81 games and once 80 games....
How in the hell u arrive at 10 games per season o0....
The 2 covid seasons weren't 82 games either.
Do I need to spell it out why "he played 65 games on average and therefore missed 17 games on average" is just wrong, when your denominator is off by like 40?
Is that too difficult for you? And you're still doubling up on it, saying oh it's a close enough approximation. No dude, just take the L when you **** up.
Talking about a playoff series from his 20th season, where he was obviously injured to downplay his endurance vs a guy that only played 15 while taking 4.5 seasons of vacations in there is impressive even for you
Kareem is the only guy you can really say matches Lebron's endurance and he slowed way down at the end, while Lebron is still a top 10 guy in year 21
Nvm
The 2 covid seasons weren't 82 games either.
Do I need to spell it out why "he played 65 games on average and therefore missed 17 games on average" is just wrong, when your denominator is off by like 40?
Is that too difficult for you? And you're still doubling up on it, saying oh it's a close enough approximation. No dude, just the L when you **** up.
hey did u see the work i did...
its all there...
2012 to this season:
62/66
76/82
77/82
69/82
76/82
74/82
82/82
55/82 (Lebron 34 years old/MJ retired 98) )
67/71
45/72
56/82
55/82
55/63 (this year)
849/1010 =16% since 2012
lebron 34 years old 333/452
119 games miss ! (26% missing )
no there is no let it go ...35 years old+ MJ, taking like 20 games per season a break, would not be old to dominate and be all-NBA....
hey did u see the work i did...
its all there...
2012 to this season:
62/66
76/82
77/82
69/82
76/82
74/82
82/82
55/82 (Lebron 34 years old/MJ retired 98) )
67/71
45/72
56/82
55/82
55/63 (this year)
849/1010 =16% since 2012
lebron 34 years old 333/452
119 games miss ! (26% missing )
no there is no let it go ...35 years old+ MJ, taking like 20 games per season a break, would not be old to dominate....
Is 16% the same as 20%, that you claimed? You're off by 25%. Like I said, take the L when you're wrong.
And why are you arbitrarily using the last 12 years?
For his entire career, LeBron James has actually played in 88% of available regular season games.
But wait! We're not done yet! LeBron has never missed a play-off game in his entire career! Load managing in the regular season is very different than not being available in the play-offs at all (looking at you, Kawhi Leonard).
Adding the postseason, LeBron has played in 89% of available games. That's pretty far away from the 80% you came up with.
Shut up already when you're blatantly wrong.
Is 16% the same as 20%, that you claimed? You're off by 25%. Like I said, take the L when you're wrong.
And why are you arbitrarily using the last 12 years?
For his entire career, LeBron James has actually played in 88% of available regular season games.
But wait! We're not done yet! LeBron has never missed a play-off game in his entire career! Load managing in the regular season is very different than not being available in the play-offs at all (looking at you, Kawhi Leonard).
Adding the postseason
Lol I’m wrong from 20% to 16% and that means I’m super wrong because I admit I just went though an easy quick approximation ?
Lol ok.
Here is a fact , LeBron miss over 26% of games since the age of mj retired .
Now tell me , would MJ be ok missing so many games to be all-NBA after 1998 ?
You were off by 25%. It's ok to be wrong, but you keep trying to defend yourself saying you were close instead of admitting you used the wrong numbers and were off.
I think 25% is also roughly the difference between your self-perceived IQ and actual IQ.
We were talking game 7s so I showed Bron's game 7 playoff stats. Which also includes 2 games in the finals against 2014 Spurs and 2016 Warriors.
Not all playoff comparisons are clear cut LeBron, or clear cut Jordan. Jordan and LeBron are the 2 highest peak + most consistent playoff performers of all time
They’ve both been killers in the playoffs imo, that’s the point. The myth is LeBron is not clutch across his career because he choked in 2011, when we have a huge weight of clutch game 6 / game 7 performances since then that prove otherwise.
As an aside, Rafiki ignored those game 7 stats the first time the point was made so I don’t expect him to reply a second time (a feature of this thread). But the reason he’s taking MJ anyway is how he feels about it, and this thread i
This is the thing with a lot of these arguments. You can't change nostalgia.
Endurance definition:
: the ability to withstand hardship or adversity
Stamina definition:
: the bodily or mental capacity to sustain a prolonged stressful effort or activity
21 straight seasons played, 19 straight all-nba, and if he makes all-nba this year (on pace for 2nd team all-nba) that's 20 all-nba seasons in a row.
Leading your team as the best player to 10 finals in your career takes enormous endurance and stamina.
How is it not Bran that edges everyone here? No brainer.
Yes, for the majority of this thread you are wrong.
Typical answer for a guy who never play at national level in any sport .
If u think playing 2A baseball at the level mj played aren’t athletes and it just vacation i got news for u ….
Probably MJ worked even harder then when he played basketball because it’s a games he mentality and his body isn’t familiar with .
Jordan was shoe horned (Reinsdorf owned the team) into a MLB position to mess around and he sucked at it relatively.
Sorry that doesn't compare at all with playing in the NBA at an elite level.
Is 16% the same as 20%, that you claimed? You're off by 25%. Like I said, take the L when you're wrong.
And why are you arbitrarily using the last 12 years?
For his entire career, LeBron James has actually played in 88% of available regular season games.
But wait! We're not done yet! LeBron has never missed a play-off game in his entire career! Load managing in the regular season is very different than not being available in the play-offs at all (looking at you, Kawhi Leonard).
Adding the postseason
Let's not forget LeBron was thrown into the NBA at 18 while Jordan entered NBA at 21.
Jordan also took 1.5 years off in the middle.
So add all those NBA games and seasons and then compare how Jordan would fare later in his career if he entered the league at 18 and took no seasons off.
jordan would still be goating today if he load managed and ped'd like labald, luckily he realized there's more important things in lfe than bulk $tat$ and losing in the final
hey did u see the work i did...
its all there...
2012 to this season:
62/66
76/82
77/82
69/82
76/82
74/82
82/82
55/82 (Lebron 34 years old/MJ retired 98) )
67/71
45/72
56/82
55/82
55/63 (this year)
849/1010 =16% since 2012
lebron 34 years old 333/452
119 games miss ! (26% missing )
no there is no let it go ...35 years old+ MJ, taking like 20 games per season a break, would not be old to dominate and be all-NBA....
A lot of missed games are injuries, he's not invincible and recovery slows as you age. When he's been healthy he's still a dominant player far deeper in his career than anyone else in NBA history
basically all of the players that went deep in the covid title year had rough following seasons, it was not a normal offseason as well
