LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
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I agree, and it supports the idea that Jordan in fact had a great supporting cast during his 3-peat years.
Fallguy only sorts by ppg when doing his naive analyses that conclude that Jordan carried his "bed-wetting teammates" to championships. Those "bed-wetting teammates" were some of the best defenders and rebounders in the league, which fallguy never mentions.
it's about opponent - he carried the load vs trash Pistons in 07' but when did he do that to Finals teams or even top 5 SRS teams, aka top teams?
literally never, whereas MJ did it all the time - he was routinely carrying bed-wetting sidekicks over top teams or carrying the scoring load on the championship level (defeating max defensive attention)
Jordan simply defeated more defensive attention than Lebron (carried scoring load far more) and also carried bed-wetting teammates over top teams while Lebron never did.. Bron simply lacks the expert jiumpshooting skill to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level), while the lack of jumpshooting also prevents sufficient brand at carry-job volume to beat top teams (can't carry bed-wetting teammates over top teams)
GTFO, you and Montrealdonk keep ignoring my point.
What was his TS%? I'm not impressed by 25 ppg and a TS% way below league average.
Using your cut-off of Feb 7th, he had 25.1 ppg on 42 FG% and 17% 3pt.
The injury killed his playing time, but not his efficiency. His efficiency was already bad.
Wizards Jordan wasn't close to all-NBA, stop coping and telling me what his ppg was as an inefficient chucker.
Question - You don't believe MJ makes All NBA if he finishes the season averaging 25/5/5 on a team that would have been 5th or 6th seed? If you don't believe that, you don't know the media.
Question - You don't believe MJ makes All NBA if he finishes the season averaging 25/5/5 on a team that would have been 5th or 6th seed? If you believe that, you don't know the media.
I'm not convinced. Jerry Stackhouse literally had 30 ppg a year earlier on mediocre efficiency and wasn't All NBA. And his TS% was almost exactly league average.
Jordan's TS% was significantly below league average in his first season with Washington. It's possible that Jordan would have been voted All NBA had he stayed healthy, just because he's Jordan, but he wouldn't have been deserving of it. All NBA 3rd team that year had Steve Nash and Paul Pierce who were way better than Jordan at that point.
LeBron tore a tendon in his foot, lost a month and was in a walking boot in Feb 2023, he still made all-nba 3rd team.
In 2003 Jamal Mashburn beat out all these players for all-nba. All the voters thought these players were better players than Jordan was in 2003:
Probably true but I don’t think even peak Jordan would ever be able to be all-nba center either ?
No idea why centers and shooting guards matters he was SF in his return ?
It doesn't matter how much you cherry-pick Jordan's injuries, his efficiency was still awful in 2001-02. I don't care what his ppg was when his TS% was way below league average.
And why the hell are you comparing him to rookie LeBron? Rookie LeBron was not all-NBA, and this whole argument was about Wizards Jordan also not being all-NBA, because he was an inefficient chucker.
True but mj plays usually all games and when we look slightly after the mid season (46 games) , MJ numbers were on an clear ascendant trend on better shooting and better stats with 35 games to go , which means his end season numbers could of been even better .
27-29 ppg with 6-7 rebound/assist and good D with +.500 team success (after a 19 wins season previously ) are good stats to consider as well imo
Fwiw It’s not like he was peaking at 25-5-5 or being in a descendant trend ….
2nd , Simple reasons.
It was similar nba competition , similar situation in trash team for both and lebron still was mvp 9 even tho not all-nba , shrug.
I'm not convinced. Jerry Stackhouse literally had 30 ppg a year earlier on mediocre efficiency and wasn't All NBA. And his TS% was almost exactly league average.
Jordan's TS% was significantly below league average in his first season with Washington. It's possible that Jordan would have been voted All NBA had he stayed healthy, just because he's Jordan, but he wouldn't have been deserving of it.
Fair enough but those are guards right while MJ was playing SF ?
Didn’t they respected position at that time ?
I was always under that assumption ?
Do you have trouble reading?
Fallguy said that if Jordan shot 45% for a series it would be his worst series ever.
You're lying - I never said that
So you apparently have trouble reading
I said 25 ppg would be the worst series of Jordan's career yet that's all Lebron needed to win the 07' East and he only needed 22.8 to win the 14' East.. These would be the worst series of Jordan's career, yet Lebron won the East with that crap, thus confirming a worst-ever conference.
It's true that during the 07' ECF and 96' Finals, Lebron/MJ carried the scoring load and therefore faced max defensive attention that caused poor shooting, but the difference is opponent - Lebron carried bed-wetting teammates vs crap teams like 07' Pistons but never did so against Finals teams or even top 5 SRS teams like MJ routinely did.
Anyway, I'm only mildly surprised you lied about what I said like that.
I'm not convinced. Jerry Stackhouse literally had 30 ppg a year earlier on mediocre efficiency and wasn't All NBA. And his TS% was almost exactly league average.
Jordan's TS% was significantly below league average in his first season with Washington. It's possible that Jordan would have been voted All NBA had he stayed healthy, just because he's Jordan, but he wouldn't have been deserving of it. All NBA 3rd team that year had Steve Nash and Paul Pierce who were way better than Jordan at that poin
Wizards MJ and peak Stackhouse aren't the same player just because they both had weak shooting efficiency - Jordan was still far superior because he had a goat presence from being goat - Stackhouse was a little boy by comparison.. If you watched at that time, this would be obvious and not worth mentioning.. MJ was also a much better passer than Stackhouse ever was because Stack would average 4 TO and 4 APG or 4 TO and 5 APG - those are his peak assist years, whereas MJ had goat IQ.. MJ was also still a far better defender too - just a far superior overall player - not comparable at all.
Secondly, Nash was a 1st-time all-star in 02' after having his first double-digit scoring in 01' as a 5th year player (aka sub-par reputation).
If MJ stays healthy and gets the 5 seed in 02', there's zero chance that Nash would make All-NBA over Jordan, nor would he deserve it.. This idea that baby Nash was "way better" than pre-injury Jordan is 100% wrong and a complete misrepresentation of history.. 02' Nash was an okay player that was just beginning to come into his own but had a ways to go.
Jordan could also make it over Payton - he was good but not better than pre-injury Jordan - he couldn't carry the offense like pre-injury Jordan still could and old Jordan still carried more respect than Payton.
Ultimately, millions of people have a complete miscomprehension of the game, it's players and history due to fake news by mainstream media.. I'm happy to inform a few dozen on here and put the real information in their subconscious (even if their conscious won't concede) and call it a day.
Btw, only Lebron lost series as 1st option that could be attributed to shooting under 40% (07' Finals, 08' 2nd Round, 15' Finals), while Kobe or Jordan never lost series as 1st option due to shooting under 40%.. Only Lebron wet the bed and couldn't hit the broadside of a barn vs top comp, while MJ and Kobe weren't capable of playing that badly as the lead dog vs anyone, even the top teams.
Clearly, Lebron's lack of expert jumpshooting skill causes him to struggle against max defensive attention (carrying scoring load vs top teams).. It's intuitive.
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Instead of having a dynasty like any all-timer should have with another all-timer, Lebron and AD produced this trash for the last 4 years:
When you post this nonsense you know that we have access to historic facts and remember what happened, right?
2021 - 1st Round loss with 2-1 lead as the preseason favorite and defending champion[/QUOTE]
LeBron and AD missed games down the regular season stretch due to injury, with LeBron being well short of 100% during the playoffs and AD going down in the playoffs with the Lakers up 2 - 1.2022 - biggest underachievement ever (missed play-in with 3 top 75 players) - this occurred due to Lebron's worst-ever fit with Westbrook (inability to fit with teammates and have great chemistry like expert jumpshooters do, aka Curry, Kobe or MJ)
You are unhinged. Westbrook was a terrible fit and was on a terrible contract. The trade was a terrible idea. As it was, LeBron / AD / Westbrook were 11-10 in the games they did play together, and maybe they could have figured something out, before AD went down for the year.
We know what Westbrook is at this point, and what he was that year. I like Westbrook, but his time as a top player was over.2023 - upset sweep loss to Nuggets (Lakers considered the hottest team entering playoffs... due largely to a run that was spearheaded when Lebron was out)
Again, you know we have access to the data right?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/pla...
Denver were -175 in the Western Conference Finals before the series started.
Golden State were -150 and Memphis were -140 in the prior rounds.2024 - barely over .500 with the most stacked cast in the league - many examples of stackedness such as Christian Wood averaging 21/9 on other teams but buried on Lakers, or D-Lo is 3rd and 4th option for the first time in career, and many more examples of stackedness such as having the best sidekick (either AD or Lebron)[/indent]
The Lakers were +1500 with an o/u of 47.5. They are on pace for ~46 wins. 'Most stacked cast in the league', says who? Not Vegas, not any serious analyst I've heard. Gabe Vincent has been injured all year and Vandy has been injured since January. In theory, with everyone available, this is a good group. But as is they are 6 games over .500, won the in season tournament and are 17 - 9 in their last 26. The Western Conference is brutal this year.
Broadly speaking, when LeBron and AD have been healthy since 2020 they have done well. AD has struggled and LeBron is starting to be banged up more frequently. This is what happens to players as they age (and big men like AD as they move into their thirties). But saying they have fallen off or played poorly or whatever, it doesn't stack up. Their one (relatively) healthy year since 2020 they made the conference finals, this year is yet to be decided.
So a healthy Wizards MJ easily makes All-NBA over baby Nash in 02', whereas are we sure Lebron deserves All-NBA this year? I doubt it - I'm sure there are 15 guys or enough perimeter players to put above him.. There's never been a player that underachieved a rosters' talent like post-organic Lebron (the talent-based-winner) - specifically, there's never been a player that craters preseason favorites to underdog or loser like Lebron did from 2011-2016 and 2021.. And there's never been an all-timer that routinely has weak records with stacked casts and super-teams.
I'm not convinced. Jerry Stackhouse literally had 30 ppg a year earlier on mediocre efficiency and wasn't All NBA. And his TS% was almost exactly league average.
Jordan's TS% was significantly below league average in his first season with Washington. It's possible that Jordan would have been voted All NBA had he stayed healthy, just because he's Jordan, but he wouldn't have been deserving of it. All NBA 3rd team that year had Steve Nash and Paul Pierce who were way better than Jordan at that poin
I don't even know if the term "true shooting" existed in 2002.
When you post this nonsense you know that we have access to historic facts and remember what happened, right?
LeBron and AD missed games down the regular season stretch due to injury, with LeBron being well short of 100% during the playoffs and AD going down in the playoffs with the Lakers up 2 - 1.
You are unhinged. Westbrook was a terrible fit and was on a terrible contract. The trade was a terrible idea. As it was, LeBron / AD / Westbrook were 11-10 in the games they did play together, and may
Westbrook always made playoffs with jumpshooters like Paul George, Durant, Beal and Harden, but had horrific fit and underachievement with LeBrick.. So Lebron's skillset deficit caused the bad fit because 2 spotty-shooting ball-dominators cannot fit... History shows that Lebron has always been bad at chemistry because his skillset imposes spot-up roles, which yields weak chemistry, aka doesn't fit with other spotty-shooting ball-dominators like Westbrook.
And any team with David Robinson, I mean AD as 2nd option should have a dynasty... But instead the Lakers had a weak record in 2023 so they were Vegas underdogs despite having the superior roster and being the media favorite.. It's standard for Lebron to underachieve with favored rosters such as turning preseason favorites to underdog or loser many times.. But regardless of the Lakers' underachieving record, most media picked Lakers to beat Nuggets - I'm literally the only person in the world that predicted a Nuggets sweep.. There's a poll in another forum where 1 guy picked the Nuggets to sweep (fallguy).. Ultimately, the Lakers had a big on-paper talent advantage with 2 perennial All-NBA players, while the Nuggets had only 1 all-star.. And as usual, Lebron's sidekick had already outplayed the Nuggets' best player just like Kyrie over Curry or Wade over Dirk.. So the Lakers had a far more talented roster but got swept.. 4-0 sweeps are always black marks especially with superior rosters.
In 2021, Lebron lost in 1st Round as the preseason favorite - it doesn't matter that AD went down because it didn't matter that Dray was out in 2016 or KD went down in 2019.. Curry gets no passes for that so why should Lebron.... and why would Lebron get pass for 1st Round loss or lottery in his prime when rookie MJ doesn't get pass with far crappier rosters.
So the 2021 1st Round loss is a black mark along with lottery in 2019, sweep in 2023 and goat underachievement in 2022.
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Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team, so he never had to carry horrific rosters like rookie Jordan or Wizards Jordan and therefore we never got to see his efficiency against max defensive attention (no good teammates) like we saw with MJ.
Of course, Lebron was always going to have an inherente advantage in achieving efficiency due to his inferior chemistry and brand of ball (rim-heavy attack & ball-dominance vs Jordan's jumpshooting & ball movement/superior winning)
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You are disconnected from reality, it's just a blah blah blah of hate and nonsense.
No one cared when Jordan averaged 40/7/7 to beat #6 SRS teams like Barkley's Sixers in 1990 or the great upset of Ewing's Knicks in 89', so no one should care about Lebron beating crappy teams like the 07' Pistons either - Lebron's performance against top teams (top 5 SRS) or Finals teams is all that matters, and the 07' Finals confirmed that Lebron was a 22 ppg player with bad efficiency against top teams that year (Spurs), while repeating this performance in 2008 against the Celtics
So when Lebron faces the top teams or Finals teams, he cannot carry bed-wetting teammates and often had worst-ever efficiency (35-39%)... Otoh, Jordan carried bed-wetting teammates over top teams in many series, while obviously having many carry-jobs against crappy teams similar to the 07' Pistons as well.
btw, Daniel "Boobie" Gibson carried the Cavs to the 2007 Finals by saving the bed-wetting Lebron in closeout Game 6, which carried the Cavs to the Finals - Boobie had 31 points and hit all the big shots down the stretch, while Lebron was a pathetic 3-11 (check the numbers) with weak scoring & efficiency - Boobie literally carried a bed-wetting Lebron in a closeout game.
So you may not like these facts - but they are facts despite your efforts to dismiss them as "blah, blah, blah" (code for " i cannot refute these indisputable facts")
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Black Marks on MJ and Lebron's career:
1st Round losses'...................... Lebron 1..... Jordan 3
2nd Round losses..................... Lebron 3..... Jordan 2
Upset losses.............................. Lebron 3..... Jordan 0
Sweep losses............................. Lebron 3..... Jordan 2
Record losses............................. Lebron 1..... Jordan 0
Lottery........................................ Lebron 4..... Jordan 2
Locked up in loss*..................... Lebron 4..... Jordan 0
Losses with 2 all-stars............... Lebron 3..... Jordan N/A **
Losses as preseason fav........... Lebron 3..... Jordan 0
__________________________________________________
Total bad losses'....................... Lebron 25...... Jordan 9
* shooting under 40% in loss or a goat lockdown (i.e. 11' Finals)
** Jordan never had 2 all-stars
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btw, Daniel "Boobie" Gibson carried the Cavs to the 2007 Finals by saving the bed-wetting Lebron in closeout Game 6, which carried the Cavs to the Finals - Boobie had 31 points and hit all the big shots down the stretch, while Lebron was a pathetic 3-11 (check the numbers) with weak scoring & efficiency - Boobie literally carried a bed-wetting Lebron in a closeout game.
So you may not like these facts - but they are facts despite your efforts to dismiss them as "blah, blah, blah" (code for " i ca
This is an example of your "sort by ppg" nephew analysis that I'm going to have to dunk on again.
Imagine you are the Pistons, who just got dismantled by a 48 point performance by a 22-year old LeBron James. How do you gameplan for the next game? I guarantee you that the Pistons were coached to double and triple LeBron James all game in game 6, as to not let "LeBron beat them" again. When this kind of defensive coverage happens, other players are left wide open for jumpers, which leads to other players scoring points (Gibson in this case) if you are passing the ball correctly. According to your nephew analysis LeBron James "wet the bet" and was "carried," but the truth is that it was a natural consequence of focusing all your defensive coverage on one player.
As further evidence of what I'm saying, LeBron James was 3/11 from the field that game, but went to the free throw line a whopping 19 times, and also had 14 rebounds and 2 blocks. None of which you mentioned because your narrative was that LeBron had a terrible game. But in reality, LeBron James was +13 when he was on the court in a blowout win.
This is exactly why you suck. LeBron passes to a wide-open teammate = LeBron was carried. Busto analysis.
it's disconnected from reality to not blame Lebron for the bad fit with Westbrook.. Bad fits = skill deficit.
that's how we know MJ is the best with zero weaknesses - he had zero bad fits with teammates - he had great fits with every player type and every player type excelled alongside them (young players grew from low producer to meaningful producer on his watch, while veterans played near career highs/capacity) - his skillset was so complete that he could be chameleons with teammates and be elite at whatever area allowed a great fit.
otoh, Lebron has zero young player development in 21 years and a long list of veterans that cratered alongside him (Hughes, Jamison, Bosh, Love, IT, Ingram, Clarkson and many more).. this is because he's only elite as a ball-dominator, so he can't live on the post or off-ball to fit with Westbrook the way Curry or MJ would (expert jumpshooters).. Westbrook always made the playoffs with jumpshooters like KD, Beal, George or Harden.
No matter how much Jordan stans want to wish it into existence, Jordan never and was never close to making all-nba during his Wizards stint.
This is an example of your "sort by ppg" nephew analysis that I'm going to have to dunk on again.
Imagine you are the Pistons, who just got dismantled by a 48 point performance by a 22-year old LeBron James. How do you gameplan for the next game? I guarantee you that the Pistons were coached to double and triple LeBron James all game in game 6, as to not let "LeBron beat them" again. When this kind of defensive coverage happens, other players are left wide open for jumpers, which leads to other p
your analysis is correct in one respect - Lebron did (finally) force a team to throw the kitchen sink at him in the following game but this merely demonstrates MJ's goatness over Lebron, since MJ has a long history of facing far more of these situations and then performing much better in them, such as shooting much better and having viable scoring levels despite facing this type of "max defensive attention" - he didn't need a teammate to completely carry him like Boobie did Lebron...
And facing these types of max defensive attention "kitchen sink" situations is literally Jordan's specialty - no one carried weak scoring help vs top teams more or better, and no one carried the scoring load vs Finals teams more or better (it isn't remotely close).. Lebron's performance in the 07' ECF was par for the course for MJ - completely standard for the GOAT.. Basically every series, he was on that level and often far higher.
Here's some examples just for kicks.. MJ faced "kitchen-sink" situations such as Game 5 of the 93' Finals (after the double-nickel in Game 4), or Game 3 of the 91' Finals (after MJ's 13 straight makes in Game 2), or Game 2 of the 86' 1st Round (63 pts after dropping 49 in Game 1), or Game 5 of the 93' ECF... The list goes on and on... That's the main reason MJ was superior - he performed better against max defensive attention (carrying scoring load or carrying bed-wetting teammates), especially against top teams .
Due to his goat scoring and weak scoring help, the STANDARD was for MJ to face max defensive attention in every game (carry scoring load).. In contrast to MJ carrying the scoring load for his entire career and every chip, Lebron needs sidekicks that can match his scoring for entire playoff runs and outplay league MVP's - Wade, AD and Kyrie matched Lebron in scoring for entire playoff runs and also outplayed league MVP's.. This is an unprecedented level of sidekick help, yet Lebron had weak and underperforming regular season records, which led to perennial underdog status and massively losing records in the Finals.
