LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
taking peds is a good thing. we used to call it WIM.
No one said that big legs = roids.....
It's going from bird legs to big legs that indicates roids, according to the GOAT bodybuilder - and we aren't just talking quadriceps - Lebron's calves are more indicative - but I suppose that you'll claim that he's calf-raising 300?...
otoh, you never saw Jordan's calves double in size like Lebron's - he always had bird legs.. Once bird legs - ALWAYS a bird legs, except for roid users apparently.
Maybe Jordan skipped the weight room? We know LeBron does not. The frequency and intensity of his workouts is living legend.
Jordan quit a couple of times, liked to party, couldn't hold up physically with the Wizards, etc. He's not the template for keeping the work real. I can say from a quarter century of natural lifting my legs have grown a lot bigger, that's the entire ****ing point.
Didn’t MJ say he never lifted until the Pistons started mashing him?
That said, Bron is definitely on some next level designer PED ****
^^^ In the absence of threes, the paint was packed, which meant that highly-contested paint shots and mid-range were the only shots available.
So if we transplanted the modern ball-dominator like SGA or Lebron into the 80's, they wouldn't have teammates spacing the floor for them, so they wouldn't have spacing for their drives and ball-dominance like they do today.. They would be forced to shoot over packed pants like everyone else back then, and this type of tough mid-range is Lebron's weakness
Without artificial coach imposed limits, Mark Price would have been Steph Curry (he was just as good a shooter). In that epoch he was just the rare guy allowed to pick his spots to shoot threes, provided he kept the volume within reasonable (then) limits.
The league is far far better now. The style of ball is far far more boring to watch.
Mark Price could never have been Steph Curry and I love me some Mark Price (criminally underrated).
Fixed
And itt we confirmed that the doubling of Lebron's calf from bird leg to tree trunks isn't normal and indicative of roid use . Heck, even footage of 60-year old MJ on vacation shows him with the same bird calves..
Maybe Jordan skipped the weight room? We know LeBron does not. The frequency and intensity of his workouts is living legend.
Jordan quit a couple of times, liked to party, couldn't hold up physically with the Wizards, etc. He's not the template for keeping the work real. I can say from a quarter century of natural lifting my legs have grown a lot bigger, that's the entire ****ing point.
Jordan's meniscus injury in 2002 occurred on a banging of knees, which indicates jelly knees - any trauma was going to cause injury - those knees were ready to go.. So he probably came back 1 year too late where he couldn't hold up for the whole year.
That said, it only shows that he probably wasn't on anything and was all natural.
he maintained bird calves the entire time (like everybody does), whereas Lebron's calves going from bird leg to tree trunk is a big sign.
Without artificial coach imposed limits, Mark Price would have been Steph Curry (he was just as good a shooter). In that epoch he was just the rare guy allowed to pick his spots to shoot threes, provided he kept the volume within reasonable (then) limits.
The league is far far better now. The style of ball is far far more boring to watch.
Mahmoud Abdul Rauf is probably closer to Curry, and actually Pete Maravich was really that guy
Didn’t MJ say he never lifted until the Pistons started mashing him?
That said, Bron is definitely on some next level designer PED ****
There are videos that show every Jordan dunk for each year and if you compare 87-90' to 91-93', it isn't even close - he was far more explosive pre-1992.. And even in 1991, he only had a couple posters (baseline on Ewing and drop-step on Sikma) that compare to the nightly posters that he had before.
Therefore, I actually think Jordan's prime was 87-90' but he just didn't have any help.. Give him "Bad Boy Killer" James Worthy and he easily destroys Bad Boys and 4-peats from 87-90'... Of course it doesn't have to be Worthy - anyone that can provide 17-20 and then if Jordan has a top 10 team defense = unbeatable.
This is significant because we saw Bird/Magic struggle mightily with the Pistons despite having super-teams, while the Pistons were a piece of cake for MJ with just 1 all-star .. a pretty massive difference
It's almost as if a man's body matures from the age of 18 to 30. Throw in some (serious) weight training and yeah. twog you're grasping at invisible straws here.
Jordan was jacked in the mid 90s. Not Karl Malone or David Robinson quite, but the possibility that Jordan used peds is probably higher than the probability that LeBron is using. He was definitely in the top 5% of muscularly among NBA players.
PED use had a major spike in the 90s (during Jordan's 30s) and a major backlash followed (most notably in Baseball, a sport Jordan was involved in right when PED use was starting in baseball.
LeBron saw that backlash, and an awareness of it is likely to have reduced the probability that he used PEDs. Also, if you look at the character traits they've exhibited in their lives, it also seems far more likely that Jordan would've been the one who used PEDs.
Small calved men in this thread
There are videos that show every Jordan dunk for each year and if you compare 87-90' to 91-93', it isn't even close - he was far more explosive pre-1992.. And even in 1991, he only had a couple posters (baseline on Ewing and drop-step on Sikma) that compare to the nightly posters that he had before.
We already went over this:
I wrote this earlier but it's hilarious that when twog is talking about athleticism, he's using MJ from when he was at his athletic best (at around 190-200) and is trying his best to compare to Lebron after he's bulked up (maybe around 270) but now that we're talking about weight, he's trying to compare MJ that's fully bulked up (at around 220) that wasn't nearly as athletic as his earlier self, and comparing him to young Lebron (240-250) when he was athletically very much like MJ in his early d
According the the GOAT bodybuilder (Ronnie Coleman), a telltale sign of PED's is increase of leg size, not just upper body, aka size increase of entire body, not just upper body (aka no workout hero).
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I assume you've been skipping leg day your entire life.
You can barely see a difference if you squint real hard and depending on angles, there are tons of recent photos where his legs look skinny and old photos where his legs look larger. On the whole. it's laughable to look at such small changes over literally over a decade to pretend that this means something. MJ's body went through similar changes over a shorter period of time.
Then again, twog, that's the kind of sad person that you are.
Twog, also, how is it that during MJ's time, the paint was packed because there was no spacing and no one was guarding the 3-point line, but somehow the reason why MJ's 3-point shooting percentage was so low is because all his 3-pointers were contested? Do you ever think anything through?
It's almost as if a man's body matures from the age of 18 to 30. Throw in some (serious) weight training and yeah. twog you're grasping at invisible straws here.
I understand that people's bodies fill out but not normally the calves - show me someone that started with skinny bird calves but then developed tree trunks for calves.
Show me where Tmac, Kobe or MJ turned their bird leg calves into tree trunks like Lebron - Lebron was initially like them (bird calves)... see pics on previous page of 2000's lebron and his "tmac" calves)
Twog, also, how is it that during MJ's time, the paint was packed because there was no spacing and no one was guarding the 3-point line, but somehow the reason why MJ's 3-point shooting percentage was so low is because all his 3-pointers were contested? Do you ever think anything through?
It wasn't that no one guarded the 3-point line - it's that no offensive players were out there spotting up - that's why it wasn't guarded... But if someone was out there, then you would see a defender out there unless it was like Daryl Dawkins or someone that obviously wasn't a threat of any kind.
Ultimately, end of shot-clock bailouts are often well-contested and high pressure (so they're harder to make) but it's irrelevant because today's threes aren't defended anyway - 80% of them are "open" or "wide open" according to NBA.com.. Lebron hit literally 0 threes this year where the defender was within 0-2 feet and only 0.7 attempts per game where the defender is 2-4 feet away and the remaining 4.7 attempts are when the defender is 4-6 feet away ("open") or 6+ feet (wide open).. So nearly all of Lebron's threes are open.
Accordingly, today's threes are literally guarded much less than previous eras because the spacing strategy spreads out defenders and prevents defenders from rotating in time... Otoh, Reggie Miller always had someone on him like white on rice because there was no spacing strategy to allow late rotations and open shots like today's game..
The scrambling of today's defenders and the crazy spacing was accomplished by moving screen roll action back about 10-20 feet (closer to the half court line) and putting shooters at the 3-point line - this completely spreads the floor and removes basically all players from the middle of the floor/paint.. Previous eras didn't have this strategic breakthrough (no high-screen roll action in previous eras), so players were forced to score in suboptimal environments, which required superior skill (touch and contested shot-making in paint and mid-range, instinct, footwork, post, fundamentals, passing, more diverse styles of play)
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Jordan was jacked in the mid 90s. Not Karl Malone or David Robinson quite, but the possibility that Jordan used peds is probably higher than the probability that LeBron is using. He was definitely in the top 5% of muscularly among NBA players.
PED use had a major spike in the 90s (during Jordan's 30s) and a major backlash followed (most notably in Baseball, a sport Jordan was involved in right when PED use was starting in baseball.
LeBron saw that backlash, and an awareness of it is likely
Lebron's wife and trainer were caught dealing with the drug dealers - if this happened with Dillon Brooks' trainer and wife, the situation would be viewed as Dillon getting busted - no one would give a **** that it was actually his wife and trainer that accepted the PED's and not Dillon.. Everyone would know that the wife and trainer obviously got the drugs for Dillon.
Everyone simply has their head in the sand, "b-b-but the wife was on PED's... and the trainer...... never Bron"...... I have simple response to this thinking....... g....t.... f.....o.... Actually I have a lucrative investment that you should invest in.
Of course, when we compare Jordan and Lebron, we see that Lebron's body size grew much more from a young man to older man, - he increased as much as 40 pounds, while MJ increased about 15-20 (200 to 215).
Regarding Jordan, he might've taken stuff during the summer of 1990 because he couldn't lose to the Pistons again, and then again in 1996 because he had to get back on top.. It's possible... His definition in those 2 seasons in clearly higher than the next 2 years of each 3-peat where his definition falls off - once he was champ again each time, he was like "okay, i'm good" and tapered off for the next 2 years.
As you can see, unlike Lebron fans, I can concede that there's a slight chance that MJ might've been on something at some point....... and I use my knowledge of his career to point out when... I could post pics but I won't do that to the GOAT... But I will do it to a fraud that is pretending to be capable of Jordan's winning and dominance but actually isn't and repeatedly fails at achieving that level.. So yeah, I'll expose a fraud like Lebron... #checkmycalves
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Based on every stat there is, Chet Holmgren is already as good as Pippen, so if SGA won 6 titles with Holmgren as 2nd option (take Jalen Williams off the team - no 3rd scorer), that would equal MJ's 6 chips.. MJ won 6 chips with a guy like Holmgren at 2nd option, which is why he's goat.. of course holmgren is a rookie, so he will likely end up far better than Pippen ever was.
Holmgren is 21 years old, while rookie Pippen was a 23-year old bum (8 ppg), so Holmgren has far more upside than Pippen ever did, yet people say that the Bulls were "saved" when they got a 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg... Most prospects have far more upside and would've developed to greater heights alongside MJ than Pippen did... Surely a 21-year old rookie that achieves peak Pippen stats has more upside than a 23-year old rookie that averages 8 ppg... Similarly, even a guy like Andrew Wiggins was a 19-year old rookie that averaged 17-24 ppg right away, so he had more upside than 23-year old Pippen.
The only reason anyone knows about pippen is because he landed alongside the GOAT, who could sweep the Pistons with just 1 all-star, while Bird/Magic needed super-teams to go 7 games or lose.. This is part of the reason MJ was crowned GOAT - he clearly needed far less help to sweep the Pistons, while Bird/Magic needed super-teams to barely win or even lose.
Wow the Lakers have Spencer Dinwiddie TOO?
He's buried just like Christian Wood?
It's clearly a conspiracy to get the Lakers all the good players but it's overkill and quite obvious .. what a joke
it's also quite telling that lebron can't have a great team despite all these good players... it's like he kills any team... put him on the 16' Warriors and they don't win anywhere near 73 games - Lebron had 1 60-win season from 2011-2017 despite having 2 perennial all-star teammates during this period, so any idea that you can "put Lebron on this team and they would be unbeatable" is pure BS - 2 decades confirms that he isn't capable of mostly winning with any lineup... He mostly lost and had weak records everywhere he went.
Oh forgot, twog, did you score any points in college basketball?
I thought we already went over this? Are you so so braindead that you forgot all this? Weren't Antawn Jamison, Mo Williams and Mike Brown supposed to be super amazing and the main reason why the Cavs were so successful in 08-09 and 09-10 seasons?
Antawn Jamison played 0 games on the 08-09 Cavs that went 66-16. He played 25 games on the 09-10 Cavs and they went 44-13 in games he did not play. I wonder what explains this sorcery. How could they play so well without such an esteemed scorer in Antawn Jamison? Oh yeah, Lebron James.
Antawn Jamison did play 56 games on the 10-11 Cavs however. They went 9-47 in those 56 games.
The Antwan Jamison + Mo Williams combination was +8.9/100 in 09-10. The same combination was -12.5/100 in 10-11. I