LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Is this fallguy real or some AI prank?

I can only imagine he is in these same debates in 14 other online forums, spending 12 hours a day finding ways to make LeBron look bad.

Sick life.

no offense but you guys are all lunatics

How many forums are you posting your copy-pasta in that you didn't realize you replied to me twice?

You clearly have a deep pathological hatred for LeBron James that's causing you a lot of issues. It's really unhealthy man. Imagine making hatred of a celebrity your hobby. Don't you have anything better?

Yeah that's the point - Jamison wasn't some elite-producing sidekick like Kareem, AD or Wade, so he fits right in with Klay, Murray, Middleton and Pippen - these guys were the caliber of cast used by Curry, Jokic, Giannis and MJ to achieve organic juggernauts/league favorites by Year 7.. Lebron was on this track in 2010 but he gave up and teamed up with opponents thereafter.. He gave up on learning how to win via normal casts and chemistry development, and opted for a talent-based approach instead.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic

I just replied a 3rd time to drive the point home

Lebron gave up in 2010 on learning how to win via normal casts and chemistry development, and opted for a talent-based approach instead.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic

If course it's personal because Lebron's own teammates like Chalmers and Shumpert said that Lebron ruined the game of basketball by teaming up - their words, not mine.

So you can ignore me but his own teammates are stating the obvious historical record.

Wade himself conceded that after Kobe got #5, Lebron and Wade immediately got on the phone to plan the collusions and this was while Kobe was still on the court celebrating!!!

So yes, Lebron is a "bum" and a "loser" that mostly lost after forming super-teams, while MJ was unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star... It's so obvious who is far superior..

And now Lebron is paying minions to go out there and trash the 90"s???... yeah f*ck this guy.. He's a colluding loser and beta

I'm honestly waiting for this bum to retire so the media can cover the game more objectively like they used to instead of clamoring for some opposing GM to bail out Lebron with a trade deadline miracle.. Of course the refs give his team a historic FT advantage... The entire league helps him yet he still mostly loses.. It's pathetic.. get this bum and loser out of my face and off my TV

By that logic Magic Johnson never learned to win "organically" because he was drafted into the Lakers who already had the best player in the world. We needed to see him drafted by the Clippers to see how he'd do.

The whole winning "organically" is just arbitrary bullshit that you came up with, with no real meaning. Just like "expert jumpshooter" is also arbitrary bullshit with no real meaning. Your two favorite terms.

The problem with your "analysis" is that you're starting from a position of personal hatred for LeBron James. Nothing you say has any objective value.

Now he's just furiously replying multiple times hoping it gives him more credibility.

It does the opposite. Another TWOG meltdown.

lmfao here is fallguy on another forum having a meltdown 2 years ago over LeBron:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthr...

You're just upset that we are dunking on fallguy over and over and over at our pleasure so you want to "both sides" this by calling us lunatics.

Your hero fallguy has been banned over 20x on this forum alone and has invested 100 000+ posts on this topic, meanwhile I spend about 10-15 mins a week on this subject. Hardly an investment of time and energy.

You, All black dan, Hellmuth was right, Matt R. and a bunch of other Jordan stans are wincing in pain watching fallguy getting lashed here.

anyone else just click on this thread to practice scrolling and look for gifs?

today was a good day for those

Organic is meaningless in NBA context. The word organic:

: of, relating to, yielding, or involving the use of food produced with the use of feed or fertilizer of plant or animal origin without employment of chemically formulated fertilizers, growth stimulants, antibiotics, or pesticides

:relating to, being, or dealt with by a branch of chemistry concerned with the carbon compounds of living beings and most other carbon compounds

: having systematic coordination of parts

: of, relating to, or arising in a bodily organ

All which have nothing, nada, zero to do in any kind of NBA discussion.

Another myth busted!

If you want to transmute the word organic into NBA context.

Building a team revolves 3 things:

1) Draft
2) Free agent signings
3) Trades

Which is exactly what Jordan's teams did and LeBron's teams did.

Verdict: LeBron and Jordan's teams were all as organic as another since both teams used the above methods to put their teams together.

nah it's more about how after 11 years, 20000 posts and only god knows how many words i can't believe that you guys are still in here every day like there's something new to say about this inane argument about whether blue or red is the best colour. move on, find a new slant

Sure that's why I have Magic and Lebron next to each other in the all-time rankings - they're the best ball-dominators of all-time but this style needs the most help, which puts them behind the best centers (9. Shaq 8. Duncan 7. Kareem 6. Russell 5. Wilt). followed by the best expert jumpshooters of all-time, who needed the least help (Bird, Curry, Kobe, MJ)..

"Passers" like Magic and Lebron inherently need all-time scoring help - they need all-time scorers at sidekick that can lead the team scoring for entire playoff runs and outplay league MVP's.. Only Magic and Lebron had this caliber of help, aka all-time scorers at sidekick that outplayed league MVP's, i.e. Kyrie over Curry, Kareem over Bird, AD over Jokic, or Wade over Dirk.

The reason why winning "organically" matters is because every lottery pick is drafted to a horrible team, so they must build it from scratch "organically" without good supporting talent.. Without good talent, a team must learn to win by developing great chemistry and brand of ball, which are hallmarks of an "organic" path.. Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Mj and Lebron all took this organic path of chemistry development to achieve league favorites by Year 7 with "normal" or "organic" rosters... But Lebron simply gave up in 2010 and teamed up with opponents thereafter.. He gave up on learning how to win via normal casts and chemistry development (organic), and opted for a talent-based approach instead.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic

This is all intuitive when commentators, coaches and media talk about winning "organically" or building a team "organically".. Winning organically usually takes years to achieve league favorite status, whereas Lebron took the easiest path by forming Year 1 league favorites via ready-made talent, aka non-organic in 2011, 2015, and 2020.. I suppose 2020 was technically year 2

"Organic" winners like Curry, Jokic, Giannis or MJ had regular rosters with only 1 franchise player, while Lebron obtained better rosters by putting 3 franchise players on 1 team, aka "super-team"... (and still mostly lost).

Ultimately, guys like MJ, Jokic, Curry, and Giannis took years to develop league favorite status, while Lebron formed a Year 1 league favorite in 2011 via super-team - that's the easiest path possible (Year 1 league favorite)..

Then he formed another Year 1 league favorite in 2015 via another super-team formation (the Cavs were preseason favorites in 2015 and 2016 due to being the only team with 3 franchise players on 1 team, aka super-team)... Once again, he mostly lost.

And it's a skillset issue - Lebron lacks expert jumpshooting skill and elite ability to play off teammates (off-ball) - the resulting reliance on ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. Zero young players grew from single digit rookies to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch (zero young player development in 2 decades).
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Thread Summary

"Organic" winners like Curry, Jokic, Giannis or MJ had regular rosters with only 1 franchise player, while Lebron obtained better rosters by putting 3 franchise players on 1 team, aka "super-team".. Since organic rosters are characterized by lacking ready-made talent, they must win with development of chemistry, brand of ball and young players.. This kind of chemistry and young player development are hallmarks of the "organic" path, but unfortunately, Lebron's reliance on ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stalls young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically).. Lebron is forced to rely on ball-dominance because he lacks expert jumpshooting skill, while also lacking the ability or great instinct to play off teammates (off-ball).. Since Lebron's skillset of imposing spot-up roles hinders teammate development, chemistry or strategic capcacity/coaching, he fields mostly weak records, perennial underdogs and low team ceiling/Finals records regardless of cast.

Ultimately, guys like Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Mj and Lebron all took the organic path of chemistry development to achieve league favorites by Year 7 with "normal" or "organic" rosters... But Lebron simply gave up in 2010 and teamed up with opponents thereafter.. He gave up on learning how to win via normal casts and chemistry development (organic), and opted for a talent-based approach instead.. As a talent-based winner that now used talent as the excuse for losing (not enough help), he never truly learned how to win, aka chemistry, organic
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Thread summary is you being a dumbass for thousands of posts.

When it comes to Kevin Durant not winning with Westbrook, you say it's Westbrick, no one wins with Westbrick.

Fair, but when it comes to LeBron James playing with a much older and worse Westbrook, suddenly it's LeBron is a bum who can't win with top-75 player and HoFer Westbrook.

You cherry-pick whatever fits your narrative at any given time, and that's why no one takes you seriously.

In 2007, Lebron was given a pass for worst-ever performance vs Spurs because he was 22, while his worst-ever shooting against the 08' Celtics was overlooked because he was only 23..... So when a 23-year old KD carries 23-year old Westbrick to the Finals and manages favorite status over a veteran super-team, he should be lauded for carrying a young baby like Westbrook at the same "too young" age that got 07' or 08' Lebron a pass.

Accordingly, the last thing anyone should do is say that 23-year old KD and Westbrook were good "comp", but then give a pass to bed-wetting Lebron at the same age for being "too young".. So before we even consider Lebron's goat underachievement in 2022, we have to look back and see how KD already proved he was more capable than Lebron by carrying baby Wesbrick to the Finals when Westbrick was at the "too young" age like Lebron was when he wet the bed in 07' or 08'.

KD's superior ability with Westbrook was confirmed again in 2022 when Lebron/AD missed the play-in with Westbrick specifically because Lebron had worst-ever fit with Westbrook (literally the worst of all-time between 2 players) and this bad fit was due to Lebron's lack of expert jumpshooting skill and great instinct to play off teammates (off-ball)..

aka Lebron doesn't really play 5 positions because a 5-position player cannot have bad fits by virtue of playing 5 positions.. So Lebron's career of horrific fits with many players like Westbrook, Hughes or Ingram confirms that he only has a point guard skillset..

He simply starts at forward which creates a redundancy of ball-dominance with the actual point guard and this extra concentration of ball-dominance hinders ball movement and yields low assist teams.. This inferior brand and chemistry requires more talent and still can't achieve more than perennial underdog status on the Finals level regardless of cast.. Bron-ball barely meets this underdog expectation (4/10).

Ultimately, when we consider KD's twice-confirmed superior ability with Westbrook and superior chemistry overall with all player-types, coupled with "unbeatable" team ceiling that KD gives a team (17-19' Warriors) - while Lebron mostly loses with every lineup - coupled with KD destroying Lebron HU on numerous occasion including the 12/17/18 Finals - it's clear that KD > Lebron but Lebron simply had a 6-year headstart in the colluding space.. KD's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond because by that time he got 2nd pickings and injured players (harden, kyrie), while his moves looked late and desperate compared to 1st-mover Lebron (in the colluding space).

KD > Lebron

You can't see the forest, just individual trees.

It's a team game. That's what you just can't get (and, as a result, be able to decipher who is who and their respective ability to help a team at different points in their career). You always have to boil things down to accolades and result oriented thinking because you can't actually evaluate players based on their play.

Something like boxing or tennis would fit your fandom much better.

You're not wrong about some of this. LeBron is a point and Jordan isn't. Michael Jordan is the GOAT just like Jerry Rice is, but neither are quarterbacks. Just like Durant isn't.

So yes, Durant and MJ are better pure scorers for a team role than LeBron. They don't see the game the way LeBron does. I don't blame LeBron for wanting the keys to the car when he can play the way he does. He plays a team game but does indeed want to play point, Magic did too. You don't really disagree with me, you just don't like it and can never cede an inch bc you're so partisan.

Having your point at forward is a huge luxury tho, especially with the way the game is played now. It'd be like saying having your qb be able to scramble is a redundancy bc you already have fast guys at other positions.

A quick review of your posts in this thread shows all pro Jordan, anti LeBron takes going back over a decade! And consistently over the years too. You also have 70 000 posts on this forum.

And you have the gall to sit there and tell us to "move on".

You're just upset your fellow Jordan stan fallguy is getting whipped like a pinata all over the place while LeBRAN is extending his lead as the GOAT.