LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Westbrook hasn’t even been good on the Clippers - he’s basically the same player as he was on the Lakers. On the Lakers he was traded for making a max salary and expected to be the 3rd best player and all-star caliber basically. On the Clippers he’s the 6-7th most important player and makes $4 million a year. If he was on a $4 million contract and picked up off the scrap heap to play 20 mpg on the Lakers he’d have been fine too.

Go ask Alice

When she's 10 feet tall

^^^ that's completely disqualifying because MJ was 30-30 with no cast at the same age in 2002... He obviously would do amazing with a Westbrook/MJ backcourt - yikes - goat intensity and competitiveness plus great fit with MJ off-ball....... plus AD?... it's over..

But this isn't the only disqualifying thing... There's so many things in Lebron's career that are disqualifying, such as 22 on 35% vs Spurs in 2007 - this worst-ever performance is disqualifying... Ditto the 26 on 35% vs 08' Celtics... Then the historic meltdown in 2010.... All of this is disqualifying... Then his team gave up on national television mid-series in 2014 Finals - a joke - completely disqualifying... He was lottery in his prime in 2019 - disqualifying.... He lost 3 times with multiple all-star teammates - completely disqualifying.. So we don't even need to mention 2011 because we have the 07' Finals, 08' ECSF, 09' ECF, 10' ECSF, 14' Finals, and also the 2019/2021/2022 seasons - all this these are disqualifying.

right and the Heat were poorly constructed.... and so were the Cavs...

why are all his teams "poorly constructed"... why is it nearly impossible to build good fits around him?

we know the answer - his abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position imposes spot-up roles that prevents good fits and elite chemistry.

based on this hoops 101 regarding ball-domination, we know that SGA and Luka's team will both flame out in these playoffs - both teams need WAY more help to offset the crap brand of ball they play... Minnesota is more for real but the reality is that Ant lacks half-court dominance, so their team struggles in a lot of halfcourt situations.. They will also flame out despite having a better overall combination of players and less ball-dominance than OKC or Dallas.

Centers don't hold the ball for 5 minutes per game and run a bunch of high-screen rolls... only point guards do... Yes I understand that the announcer introduced Lebron as the starting center, but as soon as the tip-off happened, he returned to his normal primary ball-handler role, hence the horrific fit with Westbrook.

the question is - are YOU trolling with your delusional post?

The reality is that Lebron uses up the Lakers offense to get his stats, which is why they don't win - he really needs cookie cutter situations to score and sometimes this takes some set up time... Of course his defensive intensity rubs off on the team too - it would be night and day with a goat-level defender like MJ on Lebron's teams for the last 10 years (the years Lebron wasn't all-defense).

We know that MJ had alien energy because he shot 54% despite playing the best defense in the league and averaging 35/6/6 with 3.0 steals and 1.6 blocks)..... and still shot 54% against max defensive attention (carrying scoring load)... no tired legs - infinite energy - goat energy

complete BS

Longley was a bench player on an expansion team before 3-peating with MJ and then averaged 6/5 on 46% after MJ

So when was he ever "good to great" like you said??... it's just a blatant lie... more Klutch Sports propaganda

Similarly, BJ Armstrong was quickly relegated to a bench player on an expansion team after 3-peating with MJ, while Harper averaged 7.0 on 48 TS in 1995 before MJ returned.

So you're just telling blatant lies.. And Pippen wasn't good after he left MJ either - Houston hated him and couldn't wait to get rid of him, while he was 8th option on Portland and had historic choke - he couldn't make the Finals without MJ even with a 17 point lead in the 4th of Game 7.. You can't make this stuff up.

So wtf are you talking about by saying "all these guys were good to great in other circumstances" - they were all literally trash without MJ... Kukoc averaged 18 on 49% true shooting in 1999 for a 13-win team, and then nothing after that - is that "good" and is that a good "peak", because that was Kukoc's peak.

Longley's career TS is 50%

Harper's career TS is 51%

Kukoc's career TS is 53%

These are in line with their performance in 1998 - MJ simply played with a bunch of bricklayers and lane-cloggers - Kerr and MJ were the only good jumpshooters on the team (kukoc was incredibly streaky).

Rodman averaged 3/8 on 42 TS for the entire 97' Playoffs and this poor rebounding performance caused MJ to co-lead the rebounds with Rodman for the 97' Playoffs - both averaged 8 RPG, except MJ also led the assists and carried the scoring load at goat levels and also played goat defense (the biggest load ever).

I believe MJ is the GOAT but Pippen slander is unwarranted. Jordan was one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all-time, but was the second- best on his championship teams. The last three, Jordan was the third-best defender on his own team.

LeBron has played with better scorers, but where Jordan's supporting cast contributed most to wins was on defense.

Are we trying say these are bad numbers? Hmm let's see:

MJ TS% in 94-95: .493 (with the short 3-point line, wow)
MJ TS% in 01-02: .468
MJ TS% in 02-03: .491

Is anyone saying that MJ is better when super-old than LeBron?

please enlighten me .
What years longley , kukoc , Ron Harper you consider they were “ great players “ ?

Yeah you right Michael could have been more efficient because being scoring champ , mvp , nba1 , def1 winning a title and mvp final while missing his number 2 for half season isnt enough and great ?
Yes mj should have been more efficient to achieve what more exactly ?
Ah yes winning isn’t important , whats important is efficiency and padding the stats -> no wonder u love Lebron , winning is secondary ….

Ps: and again that was the east has its strongest ….

Yup it shows me in 1997 with only 17 games he was rusty and like in his first year return in the 2002 he was VERY rusty but was doing pretty well after 46 games , him and his team , before the injury shrug .
That team mj had in 2000s was incredibly bad compared to what LeBron had and yet couldn’t make the playoffs either …
Both injured , and their number 2 were injured too but instead of having Carmelo, Howard, monk or Westbrook …
Mj for a number 3 had a freakn Chris Whitney !
Yeah I know who t f is that ..

2021-2022 Lakers top 5:

LeBron 7.7 BPM, 5.1 VORP
AD 3.8 BPM, 2 VORP (40 GP)
Monk -0.5 BPM, 0.8 VORP
Melo -0.5 BPM, 0.7 VORP
Dwight -0.2 BPM, 0.4 VORP (971 mins)

2001-2002 Wizards top 5:

MJ 3.1 BPM, 2.7 VORP
Whitney 1.5 BPM, 2 VORP
Laettner 0.5 BPM, 0.9 VORP
Hamilton -0.9 BPM, 0.6 VORP
Nesby -0.8 BPM, 0.4 VORP

So LeBron was significantly better than MJ and also had worse help especially considering injuries.

Trying to argue wizards MJ is anywhere even close to late years Lebron is hilarious. Late years Lebron is an all NBA level player and probably top 5-8 for a playoff series. MJ had one year as a solid starter level player then a decent role player. That’s after taking a bunch of years off and having way less miles. It’s not close.

Disqualifying compared to what? MJ didn't finish out the season, he was the GM who built the team, he was playing for the minimum opening up lots of cap flexibility to sign guys around him, it was his chosen coach, and they didn't come near the playoffs in the end. And MJ himself was hugely inefficient, just chucking up tons of shots.

In 2022 LeBron and AD managed a total of 96 games between them, and Westbrook is now a non starter who earns $4m a year who was on the buyout market in 2023.

There's nothing "disqualifying" around 2022.

Jordan never got his equivalent teams of the 2007 Cavs to the Finals. And he never played a team in the finals near as good as the 2007 or 2014 Spurs. They were just awesome basketball teams.

The 2007 Cavs are universally understood as one of the worst teams ever to make the finals. You are the only person I've ever seen trying to talk up the average NBA starters and sub replacement level rotations on that roster.

Then in 2014, the Spurs were awesome and Wade was done.

Again, "disqualifying" compared to what? These are entirely incomparable situations.

The 2022 Lakers were objectively horrendously constructed. Again, nobody other than you disputes this. Westbrook was a terrible addition as a third "star" around LBJ / AD. Their lack of health mitigated against this team doing a huge amount anyway, but Westbrook's time as a high usage top 15 player was over. Again, this is not a matter of debate, based on him being on the buyout market the following year and earning a relative pittance as a depth player now.

Like this is a key aspect of the entire debate as far as I am concerned. Wade and Bosh did nothing after LeBron; Love did nothing after LeBron; Kyrie didn't prove to be the no.1 option he felt he was; Ingram, Caruso et al from the 2019 Lakers have all proven to be decent NBA starters at best; and Westbrick is a decent depth player. The 2014 Heat and 2018 Cavs were at the end of the road. They could not be fixed, and there's no way to say in hindsight that those teams should have been expected to beat those magnificent Spurs / Warriors teams. And all of these teams had horrendous cumulative records without LeBron on the floor.

Meanwhile, the 1994 Bulls without Jordan (playing a sub replacement level player in his stead) remained 6th in defense, won 57 games and lost a close second round series. And post Jordan, Phil Jackson proved himself the GOAT coach and Pippen led a Blazers team to a 7 game conference title loss to Jackson's Lakers.

The continued tone of your posts remains ridiculous - LeBron has won 4 titles and gone to 10 finals, including 8 finals in a row. That requires good fits, good chemistry and great teams. The 2011 finals is the one that got away (losing a finals as favourite). The rest of the years have their explanations, whether it be teams being outmatched or injuries - but he never lost another finals as a series favourite.

More "the passion of the Mike" bollocks. Luka and SGA's teams (and Ant's) will likely flame out in these playoffs because Denver may be one of the better all time teams, and Boston have had a ridiculous net rating all year, including a 10+ net rating with Tatum off the court.

It's not 1 or 0, there is an ocean of nuance that explains the difference between championship seasons, playoff seasons where you eventually lose a series, and seasons where you can't hit .500

I'm sure Jokic doesn't play Centre like your narrow prism understands, because he certainly doesn't play it like people understood the position in the 90s. But like it or lump it, LeBron's positional allocation is the record and assigned using the same rules that apply to every basketball player season.

"They don't win", except the season they did win, and excepting last year's great underdog run to the Conference Finals.

And as others have said, the biggest determiner of the Bull's great defense was coaching and stuffing the roster with great defenders, as per them being a great defensive team during Jordan's first retirement.

You remain full of ****.

As far as the Wizards years are concerned, I continually see the MJ side ignore the fact that HE WAS THE ****ING GM WHO BUILT THE TEAM (along with adding himself on a min contract). It's all fun and games criticising "LeGM", but Jordan literally WAS the GM.

I suppose it proved a preview for owning a team for 13 years, going 423 - 600 and never winning a playoff series. Jordan, the great winner, one of a kind: who did all of his winning under the greatest basketball coach to ever walk the earth. Just a coincidence I'm sure.

Well LeBron is off to a good start as far as money earned as a player goes!

LuckyLloyd for thread co-MVP imo.

Not enough space in the title to include him.

When MJ's TS% is low, it's his teammates' fault, but when his teammates' have low TS%, it's because they suck? The most likely explanation is that MJ just doesn't have the type of impact Lebron has on his team's offense. Also, why did the 97-98 Bulls drop off from a 69-win pace with Pippen to just a 56-win pace without Pippen? Which is a bigger drop-off than what we saw when MJ left the team? Was Pippen secretly the most impactful player on the Bulls all along? Probably not, but it's absolutely within the realm of possibility.

What if we bump MJ?

LeBron is completing his 20th straight season of 25+ ppg, fyi.

Rodman wasn't all-defense in 97' or 98, while MJ was 1st-team defense from 96-98' and placed ahead of Rodman in the 96' DPOY voting.

So Rodman wasn't considered on Jordan's level as a defender during the 2nd three-peat..

Fossil Rodman averaged 3/8 for the 97' Playoffs and wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs..

MJ and Rodman both averaged 8 rebounds during the 97' run, so MJ co-led the rebounds while leading the assists and carrying the goat scoring burden plus goat defense (the biggest burden of all-time).. Jordan also had the goat clutch playoffs on that 97' run.

DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)

During their 9 seasons playing together, Michael Jordan finished higher than or tied with Scottie Pippen in DPOY voting 7/9 times, including 6/6 before his first retirement.

Furthermore, Jordan was the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Miller, Isiah, Payton and many more of the opposing team's best players.

In 2021, the Lakers picked up Andre Drummond off waivers for nothing and he proceeded to lead the team in rebounding with 10.2 RPG.

This is just a simple example, but the point is that rebounders and defenders are replaceable and cheap players, while 20-point scorers are "stars" and therefore hard to replace, and very expensive players... That's why it's significant that Jordan could carry the scoring load far better than anyone in history because it meant that he needed less "star" help, aka scoring help.. He had the least number of all-star teammates of any top 10 player and the lowest-scoring casts of all-time.

Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring allowed GM's to surround him with a team of cheap hustlers and defenders (a GM's dream), while everyone else in history needed expensive star help (a GM's nightmare) due to their massive scoring deficit compared to Jordan.

Finally, carrying the scoring load means that a player is defeating max defensive attention.. Accordingly, by virtue of carrying the scoring load more than anyone else did by an utterly massive margin, Jordan defeated the most defensive attention of all-time.. No one has anywhere near as many series of carrying the scoring load and this includes against the top teams in the league.. Of course, if the Bulls needed elite assists, dribble forays and passing, Jordan was the only option and he led the bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen (3 title runs).

Lebron missed more games in 2022 than Jordan did in 2002..

Both teams were heavily-injured, which is why injuries are no excuse for MJ winning more games overall than Lebron's superior cast, or having the same win percentage when healthy as Lebron/AD/Westbrook.

You said yourself that Lebron/AD were barely .500 when they played together in 2022, while Jordan did the same thing with a worst cast in 2002.

Furthermore, MJ and Rip were 15-1 in games that they played together leading up to Jordan's injury in Game 47 - they were already unbeatable, so compare that to Lebron and AD's record together in 2022.

everyone agrees that MJ is the worst-ever GM and gave himself a horrible team that he had to carry in 2002

Btw, rip hamilton was a baby that rarely played with MJ that year and the horrible roster forced MJ to carry the scoring burden (defeat max defensive attention), which hurt his efficiency compared to Lebron getting carried by veteran all-stars like AD and D-Lo

Jordan's teammates proved to be trash elsewhere too - he won a 6th title with Pippen just months before Pippen was trash in Houston..

Pippen averaged 14 on 43% in Houston - that's worse than the Lakers' version of Westbrook... Meanwhile, BJ Armstrong was quickly relegated to the bench of an expansion team after 3-peating with MJ, while Longley averaged 6/5 after MJ.

Harper averaged 7 on 48 TS before MJ returned in 95', while Rodman was a cast-off that Jordan saved - the 36-year Rodman repaid Jordan by not being the starter in the 98' Playoffs and averaging 3/8 in the 97' Playoffs (no all-defense in 97' or 98').

MJ would've made the play-in in 2002 if they had play-ins back then and that's with a far worse cast than Lebron had in 2022

Missing the play-in is disqualifying (not a top 10 seed in the conference), especially with a favored team like the 22' Lakers were in many people's eyes.

Every tom, dick and harry took a 1-star team to the Finals from 2000-2009 (Miller, Iverson, Kidd, Kidd, Lebron, Dwight).

So the 00's East was the weakest conference ever, while Lebron's Eastern run was further invalidated in the Finals when the Spurs showed that a 22 on 36% player won the 07' East.

History shows that alongside an expert jumpshooter (Arenas), Larry Hughes averaged 22/6/5 with 1st team defense, but then he cratered when lebron's ball-dominance made him a spot-up shooter.

Hughes was a coveted free agent that Lebron RECRUITED - this recruitment is detailed at the top of this post - Hughes was recruited similar to Westbrook and Lebron already had a 2x all-star center that could shoot jumshots like a modern big.

So the 07' Cavs had more scoring options than the 1st three-peat Bulls, while also having superior defensive ranking even though Lebron wasn't an all-defensive player until 2009.. People forget that Snow and Hughes gave the Cavs a backcourt with all-defensive resumes, while Zydrunas routinely averaged 2 blocks and other good defenders littered the roster.. This kind of developed, 4th year team with great coaching, defenses and decorated teammates cannot be compared to jordan's 80's teams.

based on what exactly - certainly not the numbers.... certainly not Kobe easily destroying the 08' Spurs... Certainly not fossil Dirk nearly beating the 14' Spurs with an 8 seed.

the odds were even heading into the 2014 Finals, yet the Heat lost by record amount and gave up mid-series - this is disqualifying.. Duncan had all the age excuses to lose in 2014 that lebron had last year, so your lauding of these teams is hypocritical and nonsense.

^^^ you guys do that with Jordan's teams by pretending that Longley, Kerr, Paxson, Kukoc, BJ, Cartwright or fossil Rodman were really good players.. They were carried trash and the stats show that Jordan's casts were the most carried casts of all-time.

And his early teams weren't comparable to any of Lebron's teams because Jordan had no all-star teammates until Year 6, while Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team - the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a HOF coach and 22/6/5 all-defender before entering their first playoffs in 06'... So lebron's first playoff casts were FAR better than anything mj had in the 80's.

"Fossil" Dirk almost beat the 14' Spurs with an 8 seed, while the "wade was done" argument fails since he was an all-star through 2016 and averaged 20/5/5 (prime pippen)...

And the Heat had an extra star with HOF Bosh, but his capacity to step up had been taken away by lebron reducing him to spot-up role - it's just another example of Lebron's worst-ever brand of ball and chemistry causing favored talent to underachieve (losing with preseason favorite).

Prime lebron missed the playoffs in 2019 with Ingram, Kuzma and Rondo - that's disqualifying.

It's also disqualifying to be 2nd option and have teammates lead you in scoring for entire playoff runs like 2011 or 2020 and many series.

Bad fits are disqualifying - Jordan was elite on-ball and off-ball, so he fit with every player and system, while Lebron is only elite on-ball, so he clashes with MANY players.

wade, bosh and love gave up their remaining prime for bron-ball..

but the 16' Heat still nearly made ECF after being injured in 15'... Meanwhile, the 19' Cavs lost Love... so that explains those teams.. And the 11' Cavs lost their entire starting 5, not just Lebron - team-hoppers like Lebron GUT teams.

of course ingram was an all-star talent but Lebron isn't capable of developing a "pippen" because he imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win

and the 94' Bulls had 3-peat chemistry against opponents that were no longer circling their calendars or thinking about what they would tell their grandkids - no one cared about playing the Bulls anymore - it was a complete letdown .. But the no pressure honeymoon period and the cat was out of the bag in 95' when the "real" Bulls without MJ were barely .500 and headed to perennial lottery in 96' if MJ hadn't returned..

no chemistry or fits are required to make the Finals if you take 3 franchise players from 3 different teams in the conference and put them on 1 team.

Lebron is a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy) that never learned how to win (chemistry development, organic)

There's no explanation in 2010 except Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games to lose as a massive favorite - it was a historic meltdown - this is disqualifying

There's no explanation for 2014 except that Lebron lost to fossils by record amount with the preseason favorite and 2 all-star teammates - this is disqualifying

There's no explanation for 2009 except that Lebron cratered in the clutch of 4 winnable games - he lost 3 fourth quarter leads and had historic choke in the 4th quarter of Game 4 that swung the series (7 TO's).. This is disqualifying.. He was also too ball-dominant at high scoring volume and had massive defensive blunders like guarding Courtney Lee instead of his own position (forward).

And Lebron wet the bed against the 07' Spurs and 08' Celtics, which is disqualifying - bed-wetting is disqualifying

Even the current Pistons will eventually win a game but this isn't something to cheer or pretend is goat - Lebron's teams are the "pistons" of the Finals but it isn't better to mostly lose so you can treat the 1 win as a big deal - it's better to mostly win than mostly lose.

And again, Lebron was 2nd option for the 2020 regular season and playoffs, which is disqualifying.. or the 2011 playoffs.

it's disqualifying to be an underdog with a sidekick as good as AD - that isn't anywhere near Jordan-caliber

San Antonio were -125
Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one

Yep - that helps my side of the argument.

This is all so silly and irrelevant. In a career that is going to end up just shy of a quarter century, the 2022 Lakers really don't matter. The roster was badly constructed, and the two main players managed a total of 96 games. Next.

Jordan had high usage the first Wizard's season, but his lack of efficiency was more tightly correlated to a waning of skill. 3 of the 4 worst true shooting years of his career were 98, 02 and 03. In 03 his usage dropped ~8 points and was his TS% was below .500.

He was old, and he played like an old man with waning abilities. That's okay, you're not supposed to be All NBA and a top star in your late thirties. LeBron is simply a better old player and a better young player than MJ. There is no reasonable debate on who has the better longevity / better career.

This is absolute NONSENSE and is why your account has been banned so many times, a textbook example.

Pippen was All Defensive first team during his year at Houston. And was All Defensive second team the following season at Portland, as part of playing a key role for a team that took Jackson / Shaq / Kobe and the Lakers to 7.

It is entirely disingenuous to say Pippen was trash post Jordan, and there is simply no comparison between Pippen and Wade / Love / Bosh / Westbrook.

Preseason hype really doesn't matter a fiddler's ****. There was extensive posts on this forum during the 2021 offseason strongly predicting that the Lakers would be a mess and that Westbrook was a terrible fit. Any analyst or fan expecting otherwise were delusional and misinformed.

It *is* true to say that - across his career - LeBron's teams have underperformed on preseason O/Us. Boomers hate this, just like they hate switching teams. It doesn't matter, they are wrong. Analytically speaking, individual regular season games do not move the needle and this has been aggressively reflected by LeBron (maybe second only to Kawhi in terms of modern star players).

But that is because LeBron has brought it to be the most clutch postseason basketball player in NBA history, the 2011 finals aside. You want to endlessly talk about the 2022 Lakers season or preseason odds in random years. Your determination to not keep the main thing the main thing at all points remains stunning.

You can keep saying this, the basketball world remembers LeBron's pulsating solo effort against a tough hard Pistons team differently. You are wrong, it is what it is.

If you want to argue the 2007 Cavs as more talented than the early 90's Bulls...I'm sorry this is such ridiculous nonsense. You can say it, you are wrong.

Spurs were -450 in 2007
-125 in 2014, and you just needed to watch those games. They played breath-taking basketball, the beautiful game.

It is what it is TWOG.

Listen to this CRAP. It is absolute garbage.

The Cavs won 17 games in 2003, they sucked. Ziggy making the All Star game doesn't change that.

Again, saying the Bulls were the "most carried casts of all time" is just silly. The vast consensus of basketball does not agree with you. The Bulls under Jordan had the GOAT coach, perfect role players, insane defenders, etc.

Comparing stats for Wade as a 1st option in 2015 and 2016 to stats put up by Pippen from an entirely different era as a 2nd option is just entirely disingenuous, or stupid. As is pointing at All Star appearances as significant indications of quality play. Old stars keep making All Stars long after they should.

So silly, 2019 Lakers were 20 - 16 when LeBron got injured, he subsequently missed 27 games during which the Lakers went 9 - 18. Ingram and Kuzma have done...what exactly since the Lakers? They are NBA starters and Kuzma specifically is arguably stealing a living.

He was poor 2011 finals, as said many times.

2020? Finals MVP. Turns out there's more to basketball than scoring.

Wade and Bosh went to four straight finals with Bron and won two rings. What are you ****ing talking about? The fit stuff is the "passion of the Mike" nonsense.

Spoelstra is a great coach and Miami is a well run organisation. They made the playoffs in 2018 with Wade sucking up cap room and only managing 21 appearances from the bench. But Bron went to four straight finals there - exactly what you would expect in a positive context.

Ingram has played 7 of his 8 NBA seasons without LeBron James. LBJ has nothing to do with the fact that Ingram has just become a reasonably expensive above average NBA starter.

Whatever man. MJ missed an entire season and they remained contenders. LeBron's teams have fallen apart immediately after his absence.

This is just more stuff that only you really think - the Bulls were an exceptional team organisationally, coaching wise, fit wise.

Old man yells at cloud, wonders why the world is different.

There is a very well known explanation, that I am sure you are fully aware of.

Spurs were brilliant and it turns out going to three straight finals is exhausting, particularly when you don't quit after it. Wade was a shell of himself after 2013, all stuff you know.

Blah blah blah. MJ won when the greatest coach of all time was added; the perfect no.2; great role players like Horace Grant, etc. It's hard to win playoff series in the NBA.

LeBron has four NBA titles, all as Finals MVP, with three different teams / coaches / supporting casts. He has gone to 10 finals across a period where the game substantially changed.

"The passion of the Mike", check my ppg.

Again, LeBron got AD as his sidekick in his age 35 season. Which is literally the current year of Steph's career. Since then they have gone:

• Champion
  
• LeBron / AD both injured during season and banged up in playoffs, up 2 - 1 when AD goes down against Suns
  
• Lost season due to bad roster construction and substantial unavailability
  
• Conference Finals
  

And now we have this year, where they are going to win 45 or 46 games on good availability and the reality is that both LBJ and AD are declining to some extent. LeBron is 39, and AD has declined a touch in terms of his rim defense and mid range shooting.

=============

But here's the thing. You're just throwing so much **** at the wall, hoping long rambling posts will "stick", because people won't read it all or simply lose energy calling out the nonsense for what it is.

There are numerous points where your reality is discordant from general consensus. Arguing the 2007 Cavs were relatively more talented than Bulls title teams is ridiculous.

Sure some of what you say is silly, but would be accepted as reasonable by the LBJ hating community. Any finals loss means LBJ is a loser, etc. It's all blah blah blah, nonsense.

I'm not going to waste my time breaking down another one of your lengthy rambles again. But don't mistake that as agreement.

Again, it's disqualifying to be an underdog with the preseason favorite and 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team).. especially against a team you beat last year.

Jordan played 4 more games but his team had 4 more wins... And the issue is that Jordan had a much worse cast in 02' that was very injured just like Lebron's, yet Jordan won just as much or more than Lebron in 22'... Doing less with more is always disqualifying and that's the story of Lebron's whole career.

Bad fits are disqualifying - Jordan was elite on-ball and off-ball, so he fit with every player and system, while Lebron is only elite on-ball, so he clashes with MANY players and systems.

Lebron simply lacked the expert jumpshooting skill required to make the playoffs with Westbrook like everyone else did (KD, Beal, PG13, Harden).

Weaker efficiency from the 1st option simply isn't a deal-breaker and wins all the time.. Jordan added 18 more wins in 2002 and didn't underachieve expectation like Lebron's latest big 3 flop in 2022.

defense without offense = defensive specialist, so Pippen's time in Houston and Portland confirmed that he was a defensive specialist that was coddled by the triangle offensively (system player).

And the numbers show that Pippen was literally the biggest bricklayer in playoff history BEFORE joining the Rockets and the Rockets couldn't wait to get rid of him..

Pippen was never an all-star after Jordan and the triangle, while Wade, Bosh and Kyrie were still all-stars post-Lebron... heck, Bosh was frontrunner for MVP to start the 15' season for a couple weeks.

Since the teams haven't played yet, preseason favorites measure on-paper talent more than anything else.. And Lebron-ball consistently underachieved favored talent by losing with preseason favorites or falling to underdog every year from 2011-16' and 21'.. He lost or fell to underdog basically every year his roster was initially favored.

Bad fits are disqualifying - Jordan was elite on-ball and off-ball, so he fit with every player and system, while Lebron is only elite on-ball, so he clashes with MANY players and systems.

Lebron simply lacked the expert jumpshooting skill required to make the playoffs with Westbrook like everyone else did (KD, Beal, PG13, Harden).

Playing hard in regular season builds chemistry, a great team and favorite status..

Otoh, slanking the regular season and waiting for playoffs creates weak chemistry, "underdog" status and fake "upsets" despite having talent that was initially favored (preseason favorite).

It's basically ignoring chemistry and trying to win with talent alone (more help).. Lebron's weak chemistry and talent-based approach is a knock on him compared to guys that learned to build great chemistry every year (thereby needing less talent).

So taking off the regular season is essentially sports fraud that fools the fan into overrating players that achieve these "upsets" despite having the most help in the league and simply tanking the regular season.. Guys get praised for mostly losing and having the eventual upset, than mostly winning and producing perennial favorites.. so today's fan rewards mostly losing and having the inevitable upset, rather than producing perennial favorites that mostly win

^^^ no one believes that

Everyone saw Lebron melt down in the 2010 2nd Round - that's what made him leave and start hand-picking preseason favorite-super-teams.

Guys like Giannis, Jokic, Curry, Lebron and MJ had organic juggernauts and league favorites by Year 7, except Lebron simply gave up on climbing the chemistry learning curve and started teaming up with opposing franchise players (talent-based winning).. So he doesn't know how to win (chemistry) and always needs more help (talent-based winning).. It's a sad display as the media begs to get this loser more help.

I'm addition to the 10' and 11' meltdowns, Lebron has low efficiency of 37% on playoff game-winners (37%) and 0% on the championship level (0-7) - Lebron has never scored on the last possession of a 1-possession game in the Finals.

Lebron had bad numbers in that series and his teammate carried him to the Finals in the closeout game as Lebron wet the bed..

Furthermore, the performance was invalidated once we found out that the player who achieved it was a bed-wetter against championship comp (22 on 36% vs 07' Spurs and 08' Celtics).

The stats confirm it - they had the lowest scoring casts ever among title winners.

And they had worse defenses than most ECF and Finals opponents during the 1st three-peat.. This includes the 91' Pistons, 91 Lakers,92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, and 93' Knicks..

^^^ that's just a euphemism for saying that Jordan won with a bunch of hustlers, defenders and little scoring/star help.

In the 2016 2nd Round, Wade was up there with Curry as the leaders in clutch points for that round (30 pts each), while Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th of the 94' 2nd Round.. Pippen was a joke and embarassment.

^^^ that pace easily misses playoffs that year - by a mile

It's simply disqualifying to miss playoffs in your prime, especially with good players like Ingram

Lebron was the 2020 FMVP mostly because of scoring - Bron-ball works against weak and injured Eastern teams, but AD-ball was needed against the top teams like WCF (the "real" Finals).

Regardless, it's disqualifying to have an equal-scoring teammate and not carry the scoring load because MJ always carried scoring load (defeated max defensive attention).

Wade/Bosh is more help than Pippen, yet Lebron barely went 2/4 including goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do with a "not 6, not 7" expectation and obviously nowhere near Jordan being unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star.

Lebron didn't develop Ingram or Hughes and cannot develop a "pippen" because his game imposes spot roles that stall young players.

It's statistical fact that he imposes spot-up roles because he lowers teammates' APG and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing rate).

The 2011 Cavs lost everyone, not just Lebron, while the 19' Cavs didn't have Love and the 16' Heat nearly made ECF.

So you've overstating Lebron's impact and this has always been the case

Otoh, the Bulls were a 3-peat team that quickly fell apart in 95' after the cat was out of the bag and opponents woke up.. If MJ never returned, the 95' or 96' Bulls would be lottery versus 3-peat with him.

Nope - it turns out that if you team up with opposing franchise players within your conference, you dilute the competition - Finals appearances are therefore conference-dependant and Lebron would make 4 Finals out West for his career - that's why winning the Finals matters because it confirms you win the LEAGUE, not just a conference you diluted.

Mental breakdowns aren't allowed and Lebron's meltdown showed incredible mental weakness and the mind of a kindergartner.

You would think his parent died mid-series like Joe Dumars.. But it was just his Mom dating a teammate - why in the hell would this make someone quit.

Would this be an acceptable excuse for Jordan?

Once Jordan had 1 other star, Jordan made sure that his team was brilliant so he could beat other brilliant teams... He almost never lost with 1; all-star while Lebron mostly lost with 2.

Ultimately, Lebron-ball simply got solved which is why ONLY the Heat were blown away like that.. It wasn't a one-off because Lebron has many sweep losses or record losses or upset losses.

Lebron shouldn't need Wade to be a Kobe-level player and carry him - this shows tremendous lack of awareness by Lebron fans for complaining that Wade fell to Pippen-caliber (21/5/5), especially when the team had an extra star in Bosh

Phil was a 1st time nobody coach in 90/91, so you're lying by saying the Bulls added the goat coach - they literally added a nobody coach that MJ turned into a winner.. MJ was the goat candidate in 1990! and Phil was the 1st time nobody coach.

Horace is a 1-time all-star and Bosh 11-time.. Love also destroys Horace..

Ultimately, MJ was forced to win by carrying the most important category - scoring - no one else in history had to carry the most important category for more than 1 ring.

Lebron mostly lost everywhere with every cast that he ever had

Let me tell you something - if a teammate matches your scoring then you didn't carry s**t.

So cut the crap... it's easy to find rebounders and defenders compared to scorers (stars) .. Jordan's ability to carry the scoring load meant that he could win with the least all-star help of any dynasty or anyone that won multiple chips..

And Jordan was a goat rebounder among SG's, while being the Bulls' only option for elite APG and point guard play.. so the "sort by PPG" argument doesn't work because MJ is the most well-rounded player ever (2-way play, on-ball, off-ball).

Never understood why changing many teams is a plus .
Maybe mj should have just join the lakers or the spurs in his comeback and wins a tons of more rings …?

It’s funny how many keeps defending LeBron on injuries issues and yet ready to blame mj to be not has great precisely because of injuries issues while still playing more games …