LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Lebron needed better assist guys than Pippen, since Wade, Kyrie, Westbrook and Rondo average more APG than Pippen
Right, bc it was a slow, plodding, more juvenile era.
Bill Wennington and Dennis Rodman weren't bailing anyone out. It was a flawed game, which Jordan was able to exploit. Right guy, right place, right time. He's an outlier largely bc of luck. He's the Bill Gates of basketball. The Bezos of the Bulls. Dominator of the Dark Ages.
'80s and '10s on is just a better brand of ball.
SABR - let's bury the hatchet on the all-defensive thing and return to the debate. I appreciate your efforts and your points aren't lost on me.. They've helped me adjust my arguments so they're fool proof.. and obviously, I have no idea how old you are - that was my only troll in the entire thread 😉... I don't spend any time trying to dox anyone although obviously it's done to me
Could you imagine if LeBron did his winning during a diluted expansion era?
I'm sure TWOG wouldn't demerit him a bit.
Other 1st options in the 90's enjoyed all-time floor generals that averaged 10 APG like Stockton, Payton, KJ or Hardaway, while MJ was stuck with Pippen's pathetic 5 apg.
^^^ Right the no defense eras
The Bad Boys brought the game into the modern era by ending the run-and-gun era of the 80's and making basketball look like actual defense was being played for the first time ever.. This is common knowledge.
Today's era and the 80's has endless blooper reels with zero defense, while the 90's and 00's are the only time that the eye test shows real resistance.. Every other era appears to be zero defense like the black-and-white 60's, ABA 70's, run-and-gun 80's, or the current spaced-out, hands-off, beginner format where 150 points isn't rare.. Only the 90's and 00's had the perfect balance of three-point shooting while also having tough defensive environment and offensive diversity.
Shaq said he watched highlights from previous eras and it looked like easy basketball compared to what he faced in the 90's (where it was too tough for him to win)... Shaq was repeatedly destroyed in the 90's, including 5 sweep losses or gentlemen sweep despite great casts of all-star teammates for the entire decade.. He literally needed an MJ clone to win in that era.. He only won when all the 90's guys that were killing him got old (Malone, MJ, Hakeem).
Could you imagine if LeBron did his winning during a diluted expansion era?
I'm sure TWOG wouldn't demerit him a bit.
No one has explained how creating a couple new teams every few years by using existing NBA players dilutes the league or only helps Jordan and no one else
Denver or Boston's path to the title wouldn't be affected at all or made any easier by adding a couple crappy lottery teams to the bottom of today's league.
It's a weak (desperate) argument and defeated by stronger arguments like today's spaced-out, hand-off, beginner format - the NBA rules literally say that defenders cannot impede forward movement - this is essentially MANDATING no defense
I think there's one poster that doesn't think LeBron is Top 5. I have him 2nd.
I think Candybar has Jordan outside his Top 5 at times.
There's plenty of hate both ways.
But, of course, you won't see that from the side you are on.
I think I have MJ around #4 but having MJ outside of the top 5 and having Lebron outside the top 5 just aren't equivalent at all because Lebron's overall profile is substantially more resilient than MJ's. Lebron checks all the boxes - played in a difficult, modern era, showed a ton of versatility over the years as the league changed drastically during his time, has nearly unprecedented longevity, is a clear driver of his teams' success due to lack of confounding factors. So it's quite difficult to come up with coherent criteria such that Lebron drops below, say #4.
MJ's case is simply not that resilient: MJ: 1) played during an expansion era and also decades ago when the level of play was quite frankly a lot lower, 2) the game hasn't evolved drastically during his career in a way that forced him to evolve and he effectively succeeded with one style of play, 3) his longevity wasn't that great, on an absolute basis or relative to his peers and 4) analytically, his value to his teams' success just isn't that clear, as he's never had any kind of success without Phil Jackson (not to mention Pippen) who on the other hand had tons of success without him.
The overall strength of the last point I think is not well-understood I think even on the Lebron side of the debate. For example, when we try to evaluate coaches using the same statistical techniques we use to evaluate players' impact:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/c...
Phil Jackson grades out as being worth a strong MVP player by himself (accounting for playing time). In fact Phil Jackson being worth a ton fits the data extremely well (even without advanced statistcal techniques) - the Bulls improved a ton when he joined without much change in talent, the Lakers improved a ton when he joined and the Lakers declined a ton when he left. And none of the core players on his teams (MJ, Shaq, Pippen, Kobe, Pau, Kukoc, etc) showed similar impact in terms of winning without him.
The Cavs won 53 in 2017 and the Heat won 54 in 14', so Lebron never won a lot of games except a couple seasons when his stiff-arm received great spacing help (Mo & Ray Allen).
So the point is that the reason the Lakers haven't won many games this year despite Lebron getting good numbers is because Lebron's good numbers (Bron-ball )never produced great records except a couple one-offs when his stiff received a notable spacer..
Yet people have this misperception that he previously achieved great records and now he's just "old".. But the reality is that he was never a great winner that achieved great records - he only had 1 sixty win season from 11-17'..
Furthermore, another reason he isn't winning despite good numbers is because he's playing more off-ball now and stinks at it.. He doesn't know to how to foster great chemistry off-ball, while his ball-dominant approach never had great chemistry or developed young players - he's simply bad at chemistry.. Unlike MJ or Curry, Lebron never developed the kind of expert jumpshooting skill and great instinct to play off teammates because he was too busy dominating the ball, imposing spot-up roles and cratering teammates.
Love the reference. Ironically, I think Zach Edey's NBA potential is somewhat underrated because a lot of people are quick to write him off as a college big with an obsolete skill set that doesn't fit a modern NBA offense or defense. In a bizarro way, he reminds of Curry or rather how Curry was doubted before the draft despite his success in college because of 1) perceived athletic/positional/role limitations, 2) the difference between and pro and college ball, 3) superficial comparison to other successful college players who struggled to transition to the NBA. I think what's being overlooked is 1) how big of an outlier they are compared to their peers in college, 2) how clearly their strengths would be outliers even at the NBA level and 3) the extent to which work ethic can make up for what appear to be innate athletic limitations.
Could you imagine if LeBron did his winning during a diluted expansion era?
I'm sure TWOG wouldn't demerit him a bit.
Well if you swapped MJ & Lebron's circumstances, I don't think this is a debate at all, so twog would have had to blame his disappointing college basketball career (as far as we can tell, 4 points in 2 total games) on something else. Somehow I doubt twog is a well-adjusted, productive member of the society in that scenario.
No one has explained how creating a couple new teams every few years by using existing NBA players dilutes the league or only helps Jordan and no one else
Denver or Boston's path to the title wouldn't be affected at all or made any easier by adding a couple crappy lottery teams to the bottom of today's league.
It's a weak (desperate) argument and defeated by stronger arguments like today's spaced-out, hand-off, beginner format - the NBA rules literally say that defenders cannot impede forward mo
the diluted argument is terrible because Lebron never won anything until he literally diluted the competition by teaming up with them and forming a superteam in the weakest conference in the history of professional sports.
Lol? Lebron didn’t have AD until his age 35 season, which is legit this year for Curry. You think giving that version of AD to Curry starting this year would have yielded 3 titles in 4 complete seasons? Maybe more? Are you aware of how difficult it is to win NBA titles?
Bear in mind AD played 36 and 40 games two of the years. The two other relatively healthy years they won the title and lost in the conference finals to the eventual champion.
Curry has already shown signs of decline this year. He
You're expecting too much from "Hellmuth is right" - he's the guy who unironically clicks "Like" on twog's terrible posts to show his approval, but somehow looks even dumber when he does post.
Well that's one opponent.
Anyway it's just hilarious that both sides basically do the exact same thing as the other side and both sides say the other side are stupid for doing it.
You know virtually nothing about basketball and your opinions on this topic are almost entirely formed by averaging terrible casualfan takes, while applying your biases in an incoherent way. You're not even really above twog (or other deranged members of the Jordan camp) in terms of your ability to analyze the game, you're just not quite as insane.
The Cavs won 53 in 2017 and the Heat won 54 in 14', so Lebron never won a lot of games except a couple seasons when his stiff-arm received great spacing help (Mo & Ray Allen).
Just a couple of seasons as in, likely the two most impactful regular seasons by an individual player ever:
I don't think people remember how absurd it was that the Cavs somehow had the best record in both 08-09 and 09-10. Both teams were completely awful outside of Lebron. And by that, I don't mean a bad supporting cast for a good team, but rather two of the worst teams ever assembled.
In the 09-10 season, these were the team leaders in minutes played:
Lebron
Mo Williams
Anthony Parker
Anderson Varejao
JJ Hickson
Delonte West
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Shaquille O'Neal
Here's how each player performed without Lebron
Lebron played in the era that was designed for perimeter players, while MJ was forced to take over a big man format and league.
Specifically, the 2005 rule changes made penetration automatic via hand-off rules, while emptying the paint via defensive 3 and spacing strategy.
That's a format optimized for perimeter players, which MJ missed out on.
If course, MJ and Lebron played against most of the same players and MJ outperformed Lebron against some of the best players he faced... MJ was MVP in 98' over all-stars like Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Kobe and Kidd (some of the best players Lebron ever faced).
So this isn't a situation where MJ and Lebron didn't play against the same players like Russell and MJ.. The "old era" argument actually applies to the MJ vs Russell comparison.. Russell actually did play against plumbers
showed a ton of versatility over the years as the league changed drastically during his time
Lebron mostly lost with each cast regardless of era - he was never unbeatable in any era or decade like MJ took over the 90's.. He mostly loses with any cast regardless of decade or era.
Btw, the game changed drastically from the 80's to 90's, yet MJ was MVP in both decades.. Otoh, history shows that Lebron won MVP in a tight 5 year period where nothing changed (09-13').. This doesn't compare to MJ winning MVP's over a 10 year period where the game completely changed (88' & 98').
Jordan evolved by turning from the league's best rim attacker into the best jumpshooter and post player.. Jordan made the most jumpshots in the league in 1997.
Otoh, Lebron never evolved into a goat jumpshooter or post player - he's been a ball-dominator the entire time and never showed dominance both on-ball and off-ball like MJ did.. MJ had goat scoring diversity that fit any era, while Lebron remained a ball-dominator that imposed spot-up roles for 20 years.. Again , he mostly lost regardless of decade or era - he never showed that he could be unbeatable and take over a decade like MJ
Yeah fine who cares...
Miller played MUCH longer than Bird with 3k more points but you won't ever hear someone use this as an argument over Bird
is a clear driver of his teams' success due to lack of confounding factors.
So it's quite difficult to come up with coherent criteria such that Lebron drops below, say #4.
* Lowest win frequency of any top 10 candidate
* More bad losses of any top 10 candidate
* Goat chokes in 2010 or 2011
* 22 on 36% vs 07' Spurs
* 26 on 35% vs 08' Celtics
* not a goat-level shooter on threes, twos, or FT, so Lebron isn't goat-level at both rim attack and shooting like MJ was.. Lower scoring diversity = weaker chemistry, strategic capacity/coaching, and ultimately, team ceiling/Finals record.
* only 2/4 with Wade or 1/4: with Love or AD, so he isn't capable of having a stretch if mostly winning with any cast
* reduces teammates assists and increases their assisted rate (turns teammates into spot-up shooter), so he has zero young player development in 2 decades and a long list of bad fits
* much more
No one has explained how creating a couple new teams every few years by using existing NBA players dilutes the league or only helps Jordan and no one else
Denver or Boston's path to the title wouldn't be affected at all or made any easier by adding a couple crappy lottery teams to the bottom of today's league.
It's a weak (desperate) argument and defeated by stronger arguments like today's spaced-out, hand-off, beginner format - the NBA rules literally say that defenders cannot impede forward movement - this is essentially MANDATING no defense
2) the game hasn't evolved drastically during his career in a way that forced him to evolve and he effectively succeeded with one style of play,
Lebron mostly lost regardless of era - he was never able to be unbeatable in any era or decade like MJ took over the 90's.. He's a loser regardless of decade or era.
Btw, the game changed drastically from the 80's to 90's, yet MJ was MVP in both decades, while Lebron won MVP in a tight 5 year period where nothing changed (09-13').. This doesn't compare to MJ winning MVP's over a 10 year period where the game completely changed (88' & 98').
Jordan evolved by turning from the league's best rim attacker into the best jumpshooter and post player.. Jordan made the most jumpshots in the league in 1997.
Otoh, Lebron never evolved into a goat jumpshooter or post player - he's been a ball-dominator the entire time and never showed dominance both on-ball and off-ball like MJ did.. MJ had goat scoring diversity that fit any era, while Lebron remained a ball-dominator that imposed spot-up roles for 20 years.. Again , he mostly lost regardless of decade or era - he never showed that he could be unbeatable and take over a decade like MJ
Who cares - no one ever played better basketball
on an absolute basis or relative to his peers and 4) analytically, his value to his teams'
Jordan has goat impact stats like plus/minus, raptor or net plus/minus even though his ability to fit with teammates and generate great chemistry depressed his net plus/minus numbers (since the cast can play off of developed chemistry without him).. Otoh, luka-ball guys like Lebron cannot develop great chemistry, which inflates their impact numbers since the cast can't play off chemistry and therefore craters more without him
success just isn't that clear, as he's never had any kind of success without Phil Jackson (not to mention Pippen) who on the other hand had tons of success without him.
Phil was a 1st-time nobody coach when MJ turned him into a winner in 1990/91.
The triangle never won without MJ or his clone Kobe - Phil needed peak MJ or Shaq to win and didn't get coach of the year with MJ until he won 72 games.. So people didn't view Phil as the driving force
1989......... ECF loss in 6 games
1990......... ECF loss in 7 games
The Pistons were 22-1 against everyone in the 89' and 90' Playoffs, except 8-6 vs Bulls.. The only other team to win a game was the 90' Blazers.
Jordan was nearly beating the Pistons with nothing in 89'
the Lakers improved a ton when he joined and the Lakers declined a ton when he left. And none of the core players on his teams (MJ, Shaq, Pippen, Kobe, Pau, Kukoc, etc) showed similar impact in terms of winning without him.
It's called timing son
Literally the most important thing on this planet
That was Phil's great skill - timing
The Pistons were 22-1 against everyone in the 89' and 90' Playoffs, except 8-6 vs Bulls.. The only other team to win a game was the 90' Blazers.
This is, of course, incorrect - can you get anything right at all?
It's called timing son
Literally the most important thing on this planet
That was Phil's great skill - timing
So a head coach can win 11 titles (including 6 straight seasons in which he coached at one point!) in 20 seasons by just being lucky and we should not use that as evidence of greatness, but we should use how often an individual player was part of a championship team in order to evaluate the player's career?
This still seems like a pretty good tl;dr of twog's nonsense:
Lebron's teammate plays well while playing with Lebron: Lebron has so much help
MJ's teammate plays well while playing with MJ: MJ makes teammates look great
Lebron's teammate plays poorly while playing with Lebron: Lebron makes everyone around him look terrible
MJ's teammate plays poorly while playing with MJ: MJ carrying so hard
Lebron's teammate plays poorly without Lebron: Lebron makes players worse
MJ's teammate plays poorly without MJ: MJ was carrying so hard
Lebron's teammate plays well without
.
Pure comedy from the JJ Redick podcast:
JJ Redick: I watched that 09 ECF again recently and you had no chance against us.. One of the big issues was we had Jameer Nelson that could hit threes off-the-dribble - it changes everything"
Lebron: Of course... spot on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUsTBPBa...
However........... Jameer Nelson (an all-star)............ didn't play in the series..... he was hurt.
lmao... the fraud is real
So there's fake news like that, and there's the historical record that shows Orlando had the injury excuse but still won.. That's like Lebron winning the 15' Finals or the 21' 1st Round (which he should've won anyway).
Ultimately, Lebron lost the 2009 ECF as a -700 favorite because he was too ball-dominant at high scoring volume, while also having the massive choke of 7 turnovers in the 4th quarter of Game 4 that swung the series.. For the series overall, Lebron became a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time (last 5 within 5) - it's impossible for any team to win a close game if the primary ballhandler turns into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time..
To top it off, Lebron had the goat defensive choke by guarding Courtney Lee instead of providing the height/agility required to defend the Magic forwards (Hedo or Lewis).. So he lost as the favorite because of this defensive blunder, coupled with his ball-dominance at high scoring level (weak brand of ball), and of course his turnover machine in the clutch.
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I'm the wrong one to ask but probably guys like Rakim, Slick Rick or KRS One
Sort by obscure old-school rappers
ok maybe tupac/biggie
It’s funny to see pippen being def1 in 1998 with 44 game played .
Mj supported by a 36 years old rodman who can’t score , won 62 games with a record of 24-11 without pippen .
In the toughest east conference in 1998 up to this day (.579 win rates vs the west) since 1989 …
Meanwhile LeBron couldn’t make the playoff when AD miss half a season like pippen , even tho lebron had 3 HOF in Carmelo, Westbrook, Howard and not a bad Malik monk .
Yes can’t win with Westbrook and yet the clippers seem very happy to have him !
Ah yes LeBron makes everyone better ….
Ps: lakers were at +400 pre season to win it all …
Seem AD is extremely valuable just by missing half a season compare to pippen!
62 wins vs missing the playoff.
Yup small gap .
LMFAO at calling those 3 guys HOF ers at that point of their careers. Anthony was a sub replacement player, Westbrook trash at that point and Howard a solid 16 minute per game backup center.
And here comes Jokic with the point center dominance.
Of course he (literally blindly) loves Steph as he's not really the point on the team, that's Draymond (another point forward/center).
Kudos to MJ tho, he didn't really win with a point on the team. Him and Scottie shared duties similar to a Booker and Durant currently. Of course, it was a simpler time back then. He was the tallest midget going against teams centered around centers. It was all very plodding and slow. Iso scorers and Zach E
We done with the 90’s!
LMFAO at calling those 3 guys HOF ers at that point of their careers. Anthony was a sub replacement player, Westbrook trash at that point and Howard a solid 16 minute per game backup center.
I think u missing the point .
I’m not speaking about being a super team and winning a title.
First off Carmelo was doing a great job that year for what he was asked to do .
(Taking SABR words , TS% .579 and .375 from 3s)
Malik monk was fine too it seem
(TS .597 with .391 from 3s )
Howard was doing fine for what he was ask to do for the minutes he played
(TS .657 giving 6 ppg and 6 rbn as back up )
Westbrook wasn’t trash at 18/7/7 with TS .512 .
And being 3 hof they actually known how to play .
And AD is an hof too even tho he played half a year (just like pippen) .
AD had better numbers then pippen across the board .
And listen I’m speaking about not even able to make the playoffs With that squad
and the west wasn’t the tough west it was use to be at all .
Compare to mj doing 62 wins !
With what ? Rodman , Harper , kukoc , Longley ?
Rodman TS .459
Longley TS .492
Harper TS .503
Kukoc TS .525 .362 from 3s . (Carmelo was at least equal)
Don’t tell me Rodman wasn’t past hof at 36 like what LeBron had with Carmelo , Westbrook and Howard .
It’s the same thing …..and Rodman couldn’t score much .
U think when mj had the ball , players guarded Rodman ?
I guess mj had almost all the pressure from the D .
Yes kukoc wasn’t better than Carmelo ….
Half a season with pippen (like AD had with LeBron ).
Not mentioning the eastern conference was the toughest since 1989.
MJ played like a mad man all over , no wonder he was mvp, nba1,def1,dpoy4 and the only 1 of 2 players on his team to play 82 games …
Seem pippen there or not , mj did the job .
I think u missing the point .
I’m not speaking about being a super team and winning a title.
First off Carmelo was doing a great job that year for what he was asked to do .
(Taking SABR words , TS% .579 and .375 from 3s)
Malik monk was fine too it seem
(TS .597 with .391 from 3s )
Howard was doing fine for what he was ask to do for the minutes he played
(TS .657 giving 6 ppg and 6 rbn as back up )
Westbrook wasn’t trash at 18/7/7 with TS .512 .
And being 3 hof they actually known how to play .
And AD
We’ve been over the 2022 Lakers numerous times. AD / Westbrook / LeBron played a total of 21 games together in which they went 11 - 10. They were 16 - 13 when AD got his first injury. AD missed 21 of their final 24 games (LeBron missed 9), where they could have potentially pulled together enough to sneak a play in spot.
But health and unavailability aside, the Lakers were a terribly constructed team in 2022. Sure, you can wonder whether the “big three” could have sorted it out over a larger sample. But - as much as they had some shooting - they lacked credible defensive rotations and continuity on offense (availability related).
LeBron averaged 30.3 / 6.2 / 8.2 on .619 true shooting playing predominantly at centre as a 37 year old…so really what the **** are you talking about? You can’t compare MJ at this age, he wasn’t playing basketball and he never played for such a poorly coached and illogically constructed roster.
This is trolling right? You couldn’t possibly be this stupid.
Like we know what Jordan would do in his late 30’s in a non perfect situation (even if it was a situation entirely of his making as GM): absolutely ****ing nothing. LeBron has managed a Conference Finals while maintaining consistent All NBA level play. Come on now, this is not the part of the debate you want to be spending time on.
With what ? Rodman , Harper , kukoc , Longley ?
Rodman TS .459
Longley TS .492
Harper TS .503
Kukoc TS .525 .362 from 3s . (Carmelo was at least equal)
Sounds like without Pippen around MJ struggled to run an efficient offense. These are all players that have been good to great in other circumstances, why can't MJ make use of these pieces well enough for them to score efficiently with MJ? Or perhaps MJ has a negative impact on his teammates' efficiency? Speaking of which, how did the Bulls do with and without Pippen that year?
With Pippen
36-8 (equivalent to 67-15)
Without Pippen
26-12 (equivalent to 56-26)
I don't know, that seems like a bigger drop-off than when MJ missed the 93-94 season, but I'm sure twog has an explanation for it.
Westbrook as a 23 minute per game bench player who takes a back seat on a team with 3 superstars still in their prime. Yes, that's about what he's good for. On the Lakers he was trying to be another number 1 option and he can't shoot at all. Now he's accepted a role more appropriate for him.
