LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

TWOG is seriously trying to spin adding 40-year old Shaq as a positive.

Is this real life?

I love how his arguments are so intellectually dishonest and hate-based that he's literally turned all the neutrals ITT to the LeBron side. Well done, TWOG, congrats!

Fallguy and other Jordan stans in this thread like allblackdan, hellmuth, Matt R, 72off are on the same level of basketball understanding, literally at the very bottom of the barrel.

Emotionally driven mixed with high levels of nostalgia.

Yup. At this point all the Jordan stans left simply don't believe their hero could ever be unseated. "Passion of the Mike" is literally what it is.

he made one today

He was throwing all kinds of spectacular passes typical of the best passers in NBA history, like Nash, Magic, or Jokic.

TWOG logic would be that LeBron was "carried" by Anthony Davis because he outscored LeBron by 2 points in this game.

The GOAT should be selfish and never be outscored by a teammate, you see.

Don't forget that you need 6 uncoordinated oafs who can't dribble or shoot to stand in the paint and clog everything up. 90s basketball the beautiful game where 50% of the roster has no skill set other than being tall.

Jordan was a ballhog and control freak. He punched Steve Kerr in the face at practice! Steve Kerr! What kind of threat has Steve Kerr been to anyone ever in his entire life??? Jordan really deserves more gripe over that.

LeBron is a giver, not a taker. Always has been. He made "the right basketball play" by passing in the clutch before it was "cool" and "accepted". He never once backed down on his beliefs that he made the best basketball play. He probably has the highest basketball IQ of all time. I remember a Ringer (?) article I read some years back about LeBron playing chess, and people were saying that should be his game.. but then some others were saying nah, he's a Grandmaster at Basketball and the top one at that. He's like the Magnus Carlsen of Basketball.. except he would be rated 3200 ELO and not 2882. And he has the freaking all-time scoring record. How sick is that. A pass first guy is the all-time scorer. LeBron was never Jordan, was NEVER going to be Jordan. He had elements of Magic and that was about it.. he was really his own player, in his own mold. Much like Wemby is his own player with some elements of Durant and Gobert. I feel privileged for being able to watch LeBron all these years and I really hope he keeps playing as long as possible.

I just think it’s unlikely his body holds up for a decade+

But I can see him putting together a 5 year peak that is unrivalled

LeBron regressing athletically and aging into prime Magic was not an outcome I was prepared for!

He was ****ing awesome yesterday from the jump, including locking down Zion on defense. Privilege to watch.

this X-post where I predict something which I believe has a very real chance of happening...

is fallguy's worst nightmare:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...

“MJ never shot poorly on high volume, only low volume, therefore he would have been an elite shooter on high volume because of a couple cherry picked games” is possibly the worst argument I’ve ever heard constructed.

Bam Adebayo is a career 40% 3 point shooter on all games he’s shot 3+ 3PA. By the logic of some, Bam is basically Steph Curry, just held back by Spo’s system.

MJ shot poorly on high volume vs the Sonics in the Finals didn't he!?

fallguy is not even grasping at straws at this point, his entire drink is split all over the table while he fumbles with his keyboard.

😆 FACTS!

In many ways this is the most important thing to understand about the GOAT debate. The MJ side has a core logic that LBJ is not MJ, and this is a bad thing. His record is not like MJ, his game is not like MJ, he switched teams, he deferred and he had a passive aggressive persona. The logic flows that if LBJ is not MJ, he cannot be the greatest.

The LBJ side never claims he is MJ. He IS different - we agree entirely. But it's a good thing.

MJ could have entered the NBA from high school, there just wasn't a mutual appetite to do it. He wasn't ready. In the respective timelines, a few weeks after MJ hit the winning shot for the Natty LeBron was scoring 25 points in a row to beat the Pistons in the ECF.

At the end of his career, MJ had an opportunity to do something really interesting as Wizards GM adding himself on a 1 year deal with a coach of his choosing. The imagination wasn't there. LeBron changed the game in this regard, having a transformative impact on the player / team balance of power. I would see this as a massive positive because the players are the product, in the end, and they deserve the freedom to maximise their careers.

(and @AllInMcLovin has a non zero chance of being correct in predicting LBJ to do something wild this offseason)

I'd take that a step further when it comes to Jordan leaving the Bulls, and how it is portrayed in the Last Dance. The implied lack of agency on the part of MJ, that he wanted to try another year but ownership wouldn't let him. And that - given he implies he would have played post lockout - he wouldn't demand a trade somewhere, or advocate against ownership via acolytes in the media. As I've said before, if that portrayal in the Last Dance is accurate, then MJ was beta with regards to his career management. Going cap in hand to ownership, and meekly accepting their decision. All a bit sad.

LeBron took agency over his career, that's the bottom line. It can be argued that his influence is too great at times, and he has pushed for the wrong players and the wrong coaches. If blowing up the 2020 Lakers around him and AD was his decision, it was wrong. If some of those 2018 Cavs deals were his decision, they were bad value. And so on. But the clear difference between LBJ and MJ is that LeBron wasn't waiting around for an organisation to hit on the right picks, the right coach, the right signings. He was going to set it up himself; and sign deals that give him leverage to manage his career proactively.

And if you don't like this, and you think it was better in MJ's time. Just remember that the narrative you are buying into was that the 90's world of team control which robbed MK of a chance to 4 peat and forced him to retire against his will was "better". That has to be nonsense, surely?

It is hard to build Dynasties and Phil Jackson was clearly very good at it.

Then, in regard to this exchange:

The first thing to note here is that LBJ and his supposedly inefficient "Ball domination" went to 8 straight finals, and 9 finals in 10 years. TWOG defines this period as proof that LBJ was a loser, was not capable of Dynasties. I mean, ****, he created an entire decade of LeBron vs Someone Else on the biggest stage. The reasons why it didn't work out as 3 titles in a row are well worn at this point. But to try and paint it as a losing style of basketball is just so...silly

Allied to that, trying to equate MJ's triangle offense to the death lineup Warriors is further silliness. It doesn't pass the eye test, on any sort of basic level. It's an entirely different style and pace and concept that requires different capabilities from the players involved. It's a somewhat clever way to try and argue the position: everything that is successful aligns to MJ; anything that isn't successful is different from MJ. But Mullen has it right with this:

So yeah, LeBron took a different path, played a different game in a remarkably different NBA landscape. That is good, not bad.

There's another side to this coin between the lines of the MJ people, the suggestion that Jordan could have done it if it was the done thing. If MJ could have hopped teams sooner or if he had decided to play longer or decided to shoot more, he could have done it all.

This leads us to these very silly 3 point arguments:

Like I do think MJ would have adjusted and been a better 3 point shooter in the hypothetical scenario where he was born two decades later. But it never occurred to him to try and improve that during his career, indeed he took less attempts from 3 each year with the wizards (0.9 per game and 0.7 per game).

By contrast, LeBron has actively worked on and improved this aspect of his game as he has aged. Transforming from a below average 3 point shooter with the potential to be streaky to one of the better 3 point shooters in the league, who is now very consistent from certain parts of the floor.

The MJ crew will say it wasn't the done thing at the time, but that really is the whole ****ing point here. MJ was the GOAT when he retired, but the idea that would hold forever is silly. New ideas, new applications, more players with greater skill: the endless relentless drive of human progress. LeBron has taken better care of his body; he has been more dedicated to his game; he has worked tirelessly to add new weapons as his athleticism faded. These are clearly good things, not bad!

You know, if MJ had stayed retired the second time this debate would almost be impossible. MJ's career would be essentially perfect, bookended by The Shot. 26 years later MJ fans could paint any picture they like about what 39 year old MJ would have been capable of. They could look at LeBron's age 39 season or his game last night and simply say that MJ could have done it, if he was arsed to do it.

But he did come back. He did play age 38 - 40. He did it in the context of him building the team exactly how he wanted it around his minimum deal, with his chosen coach. So we can compare. And the comparison quite simply is what it is.

Yes, MJ and LeBron are different with different paths. Different rates of maturation as young players; different rates of decline as old players. From the LBJ side, these differences are quite obviously good, not bad.

Unless they are elite passers like Luka / Jokic, I don't think anyone can over take Bron as the GOAT.

Wemby could be paired up with Cooper Flagg somehow.. maybe via ATL pick in 2025, and then they win 5 consecutive titles in their prime which would throw Wemby's hat into the GOAT discussion.

2025 first round draft pick from Atlanta
Atlanta's 2025 1st round pick to San Antonio [Atlanta-San Antonio, 6/30/2022]

Yep it's unprotected. lol Hawks.. decent chance Trae demands out and the blow the whole thing up.

That title change, GTFO

It's worth noting, that if Durant doesn't create one if the most unbeatable teams ever by joining the Warriors, there's a very good chance LeBron has a 5th or an outside shot of even a 6th championship. LeBron was so good the 2nd and 3rd best players in the league joined forces to create easily the greatest superteam of this century.

Not just the 2nd and 3rd best player overall, but also the best 3 and D in the league, and the best defender in the league.

But LeBron is supposed to beat that team with Kevin Love and JR Smith? LOL.

MJ didn't have high court passing IQ? What?

Here is a thought .
Take that Lebron and teleport him in Miami .
Do you think he gets more ring ?

Maybe. 2nd Cavs run LeBron was his most complete version IMO

Maybe ?
Are we suggesting the cavs was a better team then Miami with a 2017-19 lebron on it ?

That is why I’m not on the bandwagon lebron and consider him the goat ….
He could of and should of and he didn’t make it when he should had !

the amount of mj excuses on why he dominated while lebron excuses to explain his failure is sickening…

lol, as if the answer at that stage won't be Wemby.