LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

90-98' Playoffs Pippen'........ 18/8/5 on 45%... woat clutch
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2011-nba-finals-mavericks-vs-heat.html]2011.. FINALS. Lebron[/url]......... 18/7/6 on 47%... woat clutch

^^^ MJ went 6/6 with the worst version of Lebron (2011 Finals version), so he would easily 10 straight with a rich man's Pippen (Lebron)

I love how media awards mean nothing when you want them to, but other times DPOY is involved in the GOAT standard or discrediting Pippen/LeBron. (and now All Star MVP too!)

Inconsistency is your consistency.

And now Pippen doesn't stack up to Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway, and Mitch Richmond.

Your posts are nothing if not entertaining.

Also,

seriously, what the **** is going on here?

I’ll have you know fidstar has a wet jumper and I used to have slick handles back in the day. I’m no Uncle Drew but I would for sure maximize fid’s assisted fg%.

I agree 10 rings is within the realm of possibility. Maybe even likely.

Is it fair to say LeBron would be able to effectively feed Jordan assists to keep his assisted fg numbers high? Do you think Jordan would see much dropoff in his offensive numbers?

Some guys deserve the accolades, such as guys that are obviously dominant players and therefore make All-NBA without playoff success (KAT, Bosh, Love, AD)... This contrasts with many winning sidekicks that are secondary producers and not dominant, so they only make All-NBA upon winning titles and getting inflated by the winning spotlight (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Parker, Ginobili, Dumars, Worthy).

Of course, MJ wins the argument either way, whether we go by demonstrations of great play or media accolade... Despite not being a "nice guy" that everyone likes, MJ got the media's respect due to his sheer superiority on the court.. So they gave him a bunch of accolade despite still slighting him of MVP in 87', 89', 90', 93' and 97'.

KJ and Tim Hardaway were 20/10 guys and better scorers, passers and leaders than Pippen - they simply didn't have the stable situation that Pippen had for 9 years alongside the GOAT.

I suppose that KJ's situation was stable but his performance was also clearly superior by having 2 seven-game series against Hakeem with 28/4/9 stats and then he had the historic upset over Magic's 1 seed to make the WCF in 1990.. KJ's career would have a much bigger spotlight alongside the GOAT for 9 years and MJ would've had an easier time with KJ carrying a bigger passing, scoring, and leadership role than Pippen did.. Ditto Mitch Richmond, who didn't get to develop and garner spotlight from playing next to the GOAT.

They're also 6'2 point guards. They're supposed to be better passers and shooters.

2-way wings are way more valuable. No team would ever take them over Pippen.

Fallguy,
How much would Jordan’s offensive output have been hurt if he had played with a ball dominator? I was just using LeBron as a placeholder; you can substitute anyone you want here. Say Luka, SGA, Allen Iverson, Kobe, whoever. Or would it have been about the same?

This also illustrates why you can't gauge LeBron's value even close to correctly.

Athletic 6'7+ guys that can do everything are the most valuable thing in basketball. They also are never redundant. You don't want two 7 foot posts, you don't want two 6'2 guards, but you would love four 6'8 guys + a defensive backstop. They aren't a weak link on offense and are the ideal on defense.

This is why your takes on Mo Williams are the worst of them all.

I'm a bit of a ball dominator though. I guess MJ and LeBron can play as my supporting cast.

Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

Mitch Richmond a franchise player, a guy who peaked as a 2nd All NBA team guy. Pippen not (3 time first team, 8 time defensive). Nash (2 x MVP) probably not.

16 franchise guys in 1995, but not Pippen who was a Top 5 guy in the league and Top 5 defensive.

Michael Jordan is the greatest of all-time, aka G.O.A.T

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8 of 8 "DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION FOR THAT PLAYOFF RUN:

1. 2017 Warriors (16-1).............. DURANT

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1).................. SHAQ

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)................... DUNCAN

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)................. TATUM

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).............. JOKIC

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)................... DUNCAN

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).................. SHAQ

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4)..................... JORDAN

4 0f 4 "DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION:

1. CHICAGO BULLS..................... JORDAN

2. LOS ANGELES LAKERS)........... SHAQ

3. SAN ANTONIO SPURS............ DUNCAN

4. GSW WARRIORS...................... CURRY

^^^ 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) required bigs or jumpshooters at 1st option.

0 of 12 instances had primary ball-handlers as 1st option

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Stats for the last 7 games since Luka returned from his inactive game on 2/20 (since the win vs Denver):

Luka............. 28/9/9...... 23.5 gmsc.... +12.4
Lebron........ 28/11/6..... 23.2 gmsc...... +3.0

^^^ Lebron is carried compared to Jordan, Duncan, Hakeem or Jokic.

More importantly, Luka's time of possession is 9.0 minutes (ball-domination), which cannot win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player and requires "super-teams" of multiple franchise players like he has now with Lebron.. However, ball-domination is only capable of one-offs and otherwise perennially-loses with every cast, while never producing the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champion) - see previous post above.

In addition to Luka's ball-dominant style only producing one-offs and perennial losers historically, his sidekick (Lebron) relies heavily on ball-domination in the playoffs (50-100% higher time of possession), so the Lakers are likely to devolve into your-turn-my-turn in these playoffs and not win the title at all.. It's still likely to be another catastrophic upset loss, due to Lebron's suboptimal skillset of high-scoring, primary ballhandling (ball-domination).

But currently, it's a remarkable to see how the league shipped Magic Johnson to the Lakers (Luka) to prop up Lebron's off-ball bonafides and his stats while having a higher assisted rate (more assisted buckets) - Magic will make anyone look good... And the numbers above show that Lebron is getting carried by virtue of an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so he doesn't face max defensive attention (carry scoring load) like MJ, or face double-teams like MJ always did throughout the game against every opponent - so Lebron's caliber is always below goat-level (MJ)... Btw, these double-teaming efforts decimated the opponents' defensive rebounding capacity (thus inflating offensive rebounders like Rodman), according to Jeff Van Gundy (here).

Btw, a quick reminder - the Lakers are currently playing good defense because they're doing what I told them to do, aka they put Lebron off-ball to improve the Lakers' brand of ball, which reduces the their defensive requirements by facing worn-out opponents from the superior brand of ball.. i.e. an opponent is less likely to get hot or be humming offensively if they're on their heels defensively - this is called "winning the attrition battle", which abides by a tenet of all competition, i.e. the best defense is a good offense... In this case, we're talking about an effective offense that appropriately wears down the opponent or puts them on their heels, thus leaving them with less capacity for offense... These are all my preachings itt and we're seeing it played out in front of my eyes - I've essentially been coaching the Lakers and the Lakers are proving everything I've ever said.. The playoffs will continue this trend as Luka's 9.0 time of possession craters the team or maybe provides the one-off that ball-dominance can provide with another franchise player (super-team)... lol, smh.. Enjoy.

Before I get to Richmond, it should be noted that if you have a defender like Draymond of Pippen as the "franchise player", the team still needs expensive scoring help like Curry or MJ, and that doesn't make a whole lot of sense obviously - Curry and MJ are the franchise players, not the defenders (Pippen and Dray).. Franchise players require elite scoring ability, which allows a team to build around them with lesser scorers and not need additional stars (elite scorers)..

Elite scoring ability is why Richmond was a franchise player, and he was also viewed as such because he was amazing right away and the next big thing - rookie Richmond was already better than peak Pippen because he was already a pure shooter, pure scorer and go-to player (franchise player), while Pippen's transition and defender player-type needed a franchise player (elite scorer) as a teammate.. It's night and day...

And again, if we're going by media awards, then Lebron wasn't all-defense for his entire 30's, so he wasn't a good or elite defender for the majority of his career.. He also wasn't as clutch as Curry, since Curry won the CPOY last year (Clutch Player of the Year, aka Jerry West Award).. So there it is - it's settled - Lebron is a bad defender compared to other all-timers and also inferior at clutch compared to Curry... Based on your logic of media awards..,.. smh..

Again, the true gauge of ability are the actual demonstrations of high-caliber that we witness from some players.. Guys like Kyrie were expected to go toe-to-toe with the best players in the league, while Pippen never was, just like Draymond wouldn't be expected to go toe-to-toe with Kobe or something.. We have to differentiate between secondary producers like Pippen, Klay, Pau or Parker that only get All-NBA after winning titles, and dominant elite producers like AD, Bosh and Love that get All-NBA without any playoff success (because everyone knows they're a boss).

5 Mitch Richmonds vs 5 Pippens, who would win?

You even admitted your limitation as a college player was BBIQ. You have no idea how this all works yet you remain strident.

Took spam-bot-FG 5 attempts to get that post right.

Awesome. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm learning so much.

Mitch Richmond. Franchise player.

Tim Hardaway. Borderline Franchise player.

Mullin. You haven't made comments about him. But you have noted that to be a franchise player they need to be able to score lots. Checks notes. Mullin scores a lot. Outscored Mitch in every season they played together. Did better in awards than Mitch too. So, arguably a Franchise Player.

Checks notes. Warriors topped out as an easy beat 2nd round playoff team. Never winning more than 1 game in the second round.

That's weird for Mitch Richmond to be a franchise player with two other, at worst, borderline Franchise players.

I wonder how Pippen would have gone running and gunning with Hardaway and Mullin?

Poorly no doubt. I mean especially with the poor coaching of... checks notes... a Hall of Fame coach.

Then Mitch went to Sac and scored some points, but not much else (23/4/4), where this Franchise Player led the Kings to one playoffs in 7 seasons as an 8 seed. Definitely a Franchise player over Pippen. Definitely.

Thanks for teaching me so much.

You basically asked me if 5 Jalen Williams can beat 5 Draymonds.

Mitch was a good defender and passer that had a much better handle than Pippen (but without the passing targets in his prime that Pippen had), so he did everything that Pippen did, except he was also an elite shooter, scorer, clutch player and leader as well.. That's why he was a franchise player and Pippen wasn't.

Mitch had the same issue compared to Pippen that a lot of guys did (like the aforementioned Mullin) - they didn't get to play with MJ for 9 seasons like Pippen did, so they didn't get that development and spotlight that Pippen got, despite being better, more dominant players.. Elite producers and dominant players like Mullin, Richmond, Bosh, AD, KAT or Love achieved All-NBA on their own without needing the winning spotlight of titles like many carried sidekicks did (secondary producers), such as Pippen, Klay, Pau, Parker, Ginobili and others.

Pippen couldn't go behind the back like Mullin does here, and Pippen couldn't set up the crossover like Mullin does here:

I'm glad you brought up Chris Mullin, who completely destroys Pippen as a scorer, shooter, leader, dog, and winner, and was also good friends with MJ.. MJ and Mullin would fit like a glove and they would win every year from 89' to 95' (7-peat).. If MJ retires in 1993, then I guess they just 5-peat.. Mullin averaged 26/6/4 for the 5 seasons from 89' to 93' and didn't fall off precipitously until after 95', hence the 7-peat with MJ from 89-95'.

Again, franchise players require elite scoring ability, so Mullin, Tim Hardaway and Richmond all qualify, but they were young when they played together and the competition was THAT tough (Drexler's Blazers, Magic's Lakers, KJ's Suns, etc).

Btw, Mullin had the same issue compared to Pippen that a lot of guys did - they didn't get to play with MJ for 9 seasons like Pippen did, so they didn't get that development and spotlight that Pippen got, despite being better, more dominant players... Elite producers and dominant players like Mullin, Richmond, Bosh, AD, KAT or Love achieved All-NBA on their own without needing the winning spotlight of titles like many carried sidekicks (secondary producers), such as Pippen, Klay, Pau, Parker and others.

No I didn't. 5 Jalens would easily win. Jalen is much closer to Pippen than Richmond also.

Stop comparing Draymond to Pippen, Draymond is much more Rodman ldo.

You are delusional

Pippen couldn't go behind the back that seamlessly

and he couldn't set up a crossover like that at all (maybe you don't know what I'm referring to) - very few forwards set up a crossover like that back then.. Pippen's crossover was designed for transition and was more like a slight change of direction than whippy modern crossover like Mullin showed in the clip.

Pippen did not have a handle like that and had zero touch on his shot-making - stone hands... He was mostly a dunker and literally worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle that he grew up in, where he learned to scrape together 15-20 ppg of flow points or transition... Otherwise, he wasn't even a 15 ppg scorer.

Fallguy,
Given your unwillingness to respond to the above posts, I am guessing you have realized that Michael Jordan, despite his high assisted fg%, would not be good enough to retain his scoring numbers if he played with LeBron or some other ball dominant player, and his scoring average would tank?