LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Jamal Crawford said that Jordan will be the goat for the next million years

He's simply the perfect player and I'm glad that I got to see the phenomenon and clutch perfection first hand, while you guys have to watch a reputed choker that can't even carry the scoring load and needs teammates to match or outscore him..

You don't understand how much less dominant Lebron is and I honestly feel sorry for you that you never got to experience the tsunami that was the GOAT

It proves that outside the Chicago Bulls system which force fed Jordan the ball via assists, he no longer averaged 30+ ppg. In fact, it wasn’t even close. He averaged 14.9 ppg on .451 shooting in the ‘92 Olympics and 17.7 ppg at UNC.

If it was close and he only had a small dip in scoring, you may have a point that scheme matters little and Jordan could will himself anywhere under any scheme and system to 30+ ppg. But he didn’t, he couldn’t, and it was not even remotely close. This proves that system, scheme, and coach matter immensely and it refutes the entirety of your arguments. Don’t be upset by it — try to learn from it. That’s how you get better.

You lost

I won

Are you ok?

Thread Cliffs

Lebron can't carry the scoring load against top teams or on the championship level, so he needs more star help and prevents GM's from signing defensive help, which makes him inferior to guys that can carry the scoring load to win with less (Duncan, Kobe, Jordan, Hakeem, Bird, Jokic and more).

Lebron is too ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams, aka this is a skill-based issue.. Otoh, all the highly-assisted skillsets (bigs and jumpshooters) can drop 40 while the ball moves and effectively carry the scoring load against top teams, so only ball-dominators cannot carry the scoring load and need more help.

I didn't want to reduce the thread to bball 101 by responding to this.

But obviously, the difference between Jordan's 14.9 with the Dream Team or North Carolina and his 35 in the NBA was the enormous difference in roster, not the scheme (which was largely the same in all three instances - ball movement).. It's obvious that Jordan would carry the scoring load as always if the roster was made up of Paxson, Cartwright, and Horace instead of Magic, Bird, and Malone.. This is similar to Lebron needing 28 ppg with Zydrunas, Jamison, Mo, Shaq and Varejao, versus paltry PPG on the Dream Teams.

The Dream Team certainly didn't need MJ to average 35 because they had Pippen as the 11th-best scorer instead of 2nd-best.. When Pippen is the 2nd or 3rd-best scorer, then 36 ppg is required as Hakeem found out, or the Blazers, and also MJ during the 91-93' Finals - the requirement went down slightly during the 2nd three-peat when Kukoc bumped Pippen down to 3rd-best scorer.

This is categorially false. Stop spreading lies. He also scored 21ppg as a Wizard. I mean he had to take a lot of shots to get there. But he did just crack 20ppg.

And we know if you are only scoring 20ppg, you are terrible.

Thank you so much. Learning so much.

Following information picked up.

• Russell, Thurmond and Walton were floor generals averaging 10-15 assists per game. Someone should let bball ref know they need to update their stats.
  

• 1993 57 win team was the GOAT team.
  

• Finley = Pippen
  

• Walton was an elite producer who had career scoring average of 13ppg, and topped out at 19ppg. Some would say it can be more than scoring, but not us guys in the know. We both agree this guy couldn't be a franchise player.
  

• All NBAs don't mean anything. They are definitely not based on assessment of performance. Just random really. I mean there isn't a Franchise Player among last years All NBA team
  

FIRST TEAM
Giannis Antetokounmpo, Milwaukee Bucks
Luka Dončić, Dallas Mavericks
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Oklahoma City Thunder
Nikola Jokić, Denver Nuggets
Jayson Tatum, Boston Celtics

SECOND TEAM
Jalen Brunson, New York Knicks
Anthony Davis, Los Angeles Lakers
Kevin Durant, Phoenix Suns
Anthony Edwards, Minnesota Timberwolves
Kawhi Leonard, LA Clippers

THIRD TEAM
Devin Booker, Phoenix Suns
Stephen Curry, Golden State Warriors
Tyrese Haliburton, Indiana Pacers
LeBron James, Los Angeles Lakers
Domantas Sabonis, Sacramento Kings

I agree with Crawford. I love having a pre-determined outcome before things happen and then making up stats and rules of being GOATs to confirm that pre-determined outcome.

Now, that Crawford could score. Could have been a franchise player if the coaches played him enough.

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Game 4 of 2009 ECF:

Lebron isn't top 10 because:

1) He can't carry the "star" category of scoring, so he needs more stars and can't win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, while the need for extra offensive help prevents the GM from getting defensive help.. Specifically, Lebron can't carry the scoring load on the championship level (can't defeat max defensive attention), and can't carry weak help over top teams (can't beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick).. He's too ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams like highly-assisted skillsets (big or jumpshooters) that drop 30 while the ball moves (Duncan, Curry, MJ, Kobe, Bird, Hakeem).

+

2) His ball-dominant skillset has bad chemistry by turning everyone into spot-up shooter, thereby preventing elite roster construction, chemistry and teams, while also lowering everyone's assists, thus producing low assist teams and assist deficits for every playoff loss of career.

=

3) He cannot win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player... Specifically, he either has worst-ever individual performance like an unprecedented 35% and 5 TO's per game in the 07' Finals and 08' ECSF, or he has worst-ever choking such as historic upsets and meltdowns from 09-11' (see Lebron's quote about the 09' ECF above).

Wrong.

Magic Johnson didn't carry the scoring load yet won FMVP 3x.

Scoring load argument refuted.

Can't build a team around him though.

The Pippen slander ITT is just amazing. He’s a consensus top 5 defensive wing of all time, top -30-40 or so overall all time, 55 wins or whatever with Toni Kukoc as the second best player. But 1X AllStar Larry Hughes superior in every way.

Pippen vs Peak Wade is a convo. Other than that he’s >>> any other teammate LeBron has ever had. Kyrie, AD, Love, BIGZ. Every single one of their teams are hot garbage when they’re the best player. Plus he had has an enormous schlong and his son is a decent player instead of a raging coke head.

2016 Finals

Kyrie.......... 27
Lebron...... 29

^^^^ not carrying scoring load, and therefore needs all-time scoring/star help, which hinders a GM's capacity to get defensive help..

Lebron simply lacks the expert jumpshooting skill or post dominance required to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level).

Lebron had the unprecedented help of 6 straight preseason favorites (no one in history had more than 3) and a sidekick outplaying a league MVP (unprecedented), so the media's trick was pretending that this unprecedented advantage wasn't something that required another unprecedented advantage to overcome it (KD's Warriors).

Pippen also had worst-ever true-shooting and advanced stats for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP).
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Magic isn't in my top 10 - you guys are getting it confused because carrying the scoring load is a top 10 all-time criteria, while being an elite scorer is a requirement for franchise player... (and carrying weak help over top teams in a playoff series is a goat criteria, aka beating a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick).

Bill Russell specifically, or GOAT floor generals like Kidd, Magic, or Nash are exceptions to the rule that franchise players are elite scorers, but Pippen isn't anywhere near their level, so your argument fails and makes my point that Pippen is lower caliber - he wasn't even a 15 ppg player outside the triangle and barely a 5 assist player, while having the worst playoff efficiency and bricklaying/lane-clogging of all-time (see previous post).

Okay, so to be a Franchise Player you need to be a scorer. Except when you are a floor general (like Magic, Hardaway and Nash). Or if you are a defensive big (like Russell, Howard and Walton).

Man, that's almost like saying there's a big range of different sort of players that can be Franchise Players. You just build around them based on their talent. Crazy talk though.

and yet you have russell at number 2 all time lol....
And lebron james scored much higher then what u imply and lost when he did !
maybe the way to win was actually to score less ? look at wilt succees that strangely u have at number 3 i think ?

The 91' Bulls had the most dominant title run ever by many metrics, while the 93' team was the 3-peat team.

Finley was a better shooter, clutch player and scorer or go-to option than Pippen but simply didn't get 9 years of development, stability, spotlight and zero clutch burden... Finley and Elliot fall into this category.. Schrempf was actually much more talented than Pippen but they didn't use 6'10" do-it-all guys back then like they do now..

Bill Russell and Walton, or GOAT floor generals like Kidd, Magic, or Nash are exceptions to the rule that franchise players are elite scorers, but Pippen isn't anywhere near their level, so your argument fails and makes my point that Pippen is lower caliber - he wasn't even a 15 ppg player outside the triangle and barely a 5 assist player, while having the worst playoff efficiency and bricklaying/lane-clogging of all-time (see shooting stats in previous post above).

Btw, Magic isn't in my top 10, so you guys are getting it confused because carrying the scoring load is a top 10 all-time criteria, while being an elite scorer is a requirement for franchise player... (and carrying weak help over top teams in a playoff series is a goat criteria, aka beating a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick).

Not everyone that gets All-NBA is a franchise player, since many guys are secondary producers that didn't get All-NBA until they won titles, and therefore inflated by the winning spotlight - it's quite common, i.e. Klay, Pippen, Pau, Parker, Ginobili, Dumars, Worthy, Chauncey, etc).

Russell is the 1 exception in my top 10 because he straddled the line between black players being allowed to play, so I give him credit for other intangibles... And he came before Wilt, who came before Kareem, so I order them in that way and respect history in this way - I think they themselves would agree with this ranking with regards to how those 3 specifically should be ranked historically.

I'll check with Bill and Wilt if they agree.

A few years ago you said Curry was most overrated of all time and then same year you put him in your top 5.

What makes you think your top 10 has any credibility after such a gigantic flip flop?

29>27 So LeBron did carry scoring load.

Also carried scoring load in 2012 / 2013 / 2020 finals.

Also Kyrie scoring 27ppg in 2016 finals (above his career averages) is proof that LeBron elevates his teammates, contrary to your claims.

Facts presented, arguments disputed.

The few goat floor generals like Magic, Stockton, Nash, Kidd, Isiah, Payton and maybe 1 or 2 others are franchise players, otherwise all the franchise players are elite scorers or the occasional all-time big like Walton (but not Dwight - not a sufficient scoring ability and not a go-to offensive player like Walton).

Regardless, Pippen isn't in any of these groups because he's in the transition player/defender and low peak scoring ability group... He never had the defensive impact of a great big like Walton or even Dwight, while having half to one-third the APG of the goat floor-generals OR elite scorers.