LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Ie: bird and the Celtic were an amazing +160 preseason odds to win in 1987 ?
And they failed -> proof bird bad chemistry and bad player - > still top 10 ?
No one had the perfect career where they're undefeated with preseason favorites, Finals teams, homecourt, 1 or 2 seeds, and barely ever losing with all-star teammate (just the migraine year and baseball year).
Otoh, everyone else has bevies of losses in these scenarios, so it makes no sense to cherry-pick with Bird because we know that no one lost more with these good teams than Lebron - Lebron has the most losses ever with preseason favorites and Finals teams, while also having a losing record with all-star teammates (4-7), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5) and 3 losses with homecourt.. He's simply the biggest loser of all-time and therefore not top 10.
And i think it's hard to argue that Jordan had a better career than Lebron on an individual level.
2 three-peats, 70 wins, and the goat modern dynasty, and then there's the goat individual caliber of MVP's that include titles, DPOY and scoring champ - no one can match this caliber of team and individual success, which makes it the goat career BY FAR...
Otoh, why would a career of teaming up with opposing franchise players (cheat code) and then mostly losing be the goat career?... Why would a career that includes a losing record with every type of good team be the goat career, such as going 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-7 with all-star teammates, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 3 losses with homecourt - this is nowhere near the goat standard, which is to never lose in ANY of these scenarios... Why would a career of being everyone's punching bag be the goat career, such as being the Nuggets' yearly punching bag, or the Warriors' ragdoll, or the Spurs b*tch, or goat upsets from 09' to 11' that caused "the decision" to team up with opponents.
It's impossible that this losing charade is the goat career and this thinking is a product of fans simply believing the crap they hear on TV and any narrative that is pushed..... because it's on TV.
Anthony Davis played 36 regular season games in 2021. LeBron played 45.
Your nonsensical arguments and extreme to the point of absurdity cherry picking sometimes makes me think you are being serious but are just biased to the point of delusion and a complete idiot. This, and other blatant lying about the data, makes me realize you just crave attention because you have nothing else going on. The Platonic ideal of a troll. Either that or you are on the Klutch Sports payroll, are the greatest mole of all time, and have convinced 90% of the die hard Jordan fans and LeBron haters to switch sides.
I can't believe people make roster excuses for this guy for 22 years - it's literally schizophrenic..
Oh wait. You have schizophrenia don’t you? That would explain A LOT. If you legit can’t control this I apologize.
Pretty much in full agreement with Matt regarding Pippen.
Bubble AD, when he had his jumper really cooking and was super athletic, was a tier above Pippen’s peak I think. He hasn’t really been able to replicate that for extended stretches since.
It really wasn’t remotely close in terms of consistency. Pippen had a 8 year peak with MJ (including his retirement years) where he averaged 6 BPM with a floor of 4 BPM and peaking at 7.7. He made 7 all-NBA teams in a row, 3 first team. Top 10 in MVP voting 5 times, top 10 in DPOY 5 times. Only missed 57 games over 8 years also.
With AD, LeBron got 5 years. Peak 8 BPM (title year), average 5.8. 2 all-NBA teams, 1 first (again title year). Two top 10 DPOY finishes. Missed 140 games! Basically the only year LeBron reasonably got of all-NBA level healthy of AD, he won a title. He got another all NBA year at age 38.
With Wade, 4 years. Peak 7.9 BPM (title), average 5.5. 3 all-NBA, no first teams. Top 10 MVP 3x with 2 of them being 10th exactly. Missed 80 games.
Pippen was basically giving peak Wade/AD or one tier below (but still a top 10-15 player) EVERY year for 8 consecutive seasons while missing very little time. AD/Wade were constantly injured and inconsistent, and ADs slight revival the last couple years came at age 38-39 for LeBron, well past his prime. Pippen is incredibly underrated considering this.
So the rest of the post is accurate and I'm right about everything.
Carry on deflecting...
Your nonsensical arguments and extreme to the point of absurdity cherry picking sometimes makes me think you are being serious but are just biased to the point of delusion and a complete idiot. This, and other blatant lying about the data, makes me realize you just crave attention because you have nothing else going on. The Platonic ideal of a troll. Either that or you are on the Klutch Sports payroll, are the greatest mole of all time, and have convinced 90% of the die hard Jordan fans and LeBr
^^^ meltdown
And I am on the Klutch payroll, or was.. They threw me out after I showed them how having a bunch of guys be spot-up shooter to accommodate Lebron's skillset prevented elite construction, chemistry and team ceiling/Finals record... That's actually how I got my screenname (fallguy).
Oh wait. You have schizophrenia don’t you? That would explain A LOT. If you legit can’t control this I apologize.
Of course I'm a schizo.. How else would I have these insights
How else would I notice that Lebron-ball skillset has a losing record with every type of good team like 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-7 with all-star teammates, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 3 losses with homecourt .. No one ever noticed that before, remarkably.
Pretty much in full agreement with Matt regarding Pippen.
Bubble AD, when he had his jumper really cooking and was super athletic, was a tier above Pippen’s peak I think. He hasn’t really been able to replicate that for extended stretches since.
It really wasn’t remotely close in terms of consistency. Pippen had a 8 year peak with MJ (including his retirement years) where he averaged 6 BPM with a floor of 4 BPM and peaking at 7.7. He made 7 all-NBA teams in a row, 3 first team.
It's weird how people look at things because you guys say that "MJ had prime Pippen for 7 years" or whatever but all the data and evidence shows that it's the other way around... Pippen benefitted from being in a stable situation alongside the most-willing and capable burden-carrier of all-time, which contrasts with the less stable situations of superior scorers than Pippen - this includes guys like Hornacek, Schrempf, or even Igoudala, who had shorter stints in great development situations, and also as 20 ppg sidekicks, before being shipped to a different situation and stacked team.
Regardless, Pippen's efficiency died by 93' playoffs and 96-98' Playoffs, which confirms that he handled the sidekick load much worse than his peers - he was mostly a transition player and defender, and only a 2nd option alongside Jordan - otherwise, he was worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle he grew up in.
Btw, peak capability, aka the difference between Shaq and Pippen isn't determined by BPM.. Otherwise, pippen's prime could be considered better than Shaq's... There are countless examples of this... And Pippen's career BPM is less than Kyrie, AD, or Wade, and barely ahead of Love.. So there you go regarding BPM... Pippen's BPM is less despite it being his best stat and the only one where he ranks in the top 100, since PER, WS/48 and peak VORP show him out of the top 100... (peak VORP is required since career VORP is an accumulative stat based on games/minutes played, so individual seasons is the only appropriate way to compare players - Pippen's best season is outside the top 100 peak VORP's).
Regarding AD - there is no comparison of Pippen to the #4 PER ever, or the #15 WS/48, who is the only player to lift a lottery team to champion in 1 year.. If AD averaged 19 on 42% in a single Finals like Pippen's Finals career, no amount of defense would stop him from getting traded and demoted in the all-time rankings.. Yet this Pandemic P caliber was Pippen's standard.. He was mostly a transition player and defender that was lucky to land alongside the only MVP/DPOY and greatest 2-way player of all-time.
I'm just saying what you guys say - I've heard you guys say many times that Luka is the best player in the league..
So now that the league has sent him to Lebron, the league agenda is clearly to get Lebron #5... And before that the agenda was to get him #4.... Imagine failing for 5 years to get #5 with AD, so now the league upgrades you to the league's best player (Luka).
Got it. You parrot what others say and don't have an independent thought.
Just like Phil didn't know about modern concepts like 3 > 2, win shares, or offensive rating, he also didn't realize that most of Jordan's buckets were assisted and therefore mistakenly thought Jordan's 37 ppg meant he always had the ball...
But nowadays, the assisted rate stat exists so we can wrap our head around he concept and easily know that Klay has a high assisted rate even without looking it up, or Reggie Miller, Dale Ellis and the goat off-guard, Michael Jordan.. The eye test easily sho
Got it.
MJ hardly ever had the ball and scored 37ppg. He was a highly assisted first option that dominated the scoring without dominating the ball. By your definition that must have meant the Bulls were very successful at the time.
fallguy has every single person in this thread that put Jordan at #1 arguing against him in this thread. Incredible.
One thing we aren't considering in these GOAT debates is how difficult it is currently to construct contending teams with all the new league rules.
If you threw Jokic into the league in the mid 90s and then gave him Kobe on the Lakers, we probably would have Jokic as a top 3 GOAT all time if not the GOAT.
No chance. Kobe would have run him out of town after 3 chips.
Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991 and 1998, so Jordan only had 5 years with an all-star teammate, while Lebron had 7 years with 2 perennial all-stars from 11' to 17', and then a rich man's Pippen from 20-25'.. And now he has Magic (Luka).
Ok so you just repeat yourself that’s great but
show me where Lebron had 2 all stars in 2015 and 2016 cause I can’t see it ….
And again Lebron failed in 2015 because the only allstar he had couldn’t play in the final and u blame LeBron ?
Ps: what MJ got anything to do in this ?
Wade's 2013 Finals was equal or better than Pippen's 93' and 97' Finals:
13' Wade........... 20 on 50.5 TS.... 4.6 APG... 2.2 TO's
97' Pippen'........ 20 on 54.1 TS.... 3.5 APG... 3.5 TO's
93' Pippen'........ 20 on 46.9 TS.... 7.0 APG... 4.3 TO's
And destroys Pippen's 96' and 98' Finals:
13' Wade........... 20 on 50.5 TS
96' Pippen'........ 16 on 42.8 TS
98' Pippen'........ 16 on 50.2 TS
Got it. Thanks for clearing that up. How do you compare Wade to Pippen in the 91 and 92 Finals? I assume that you don't think rebounds are important and you left them out.
Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991 and 1998, so Jordan only had 5 years with an all-star teammate, while Lebron had 7 years with 2 perennial all-stars from 11' to 17', and then a rich man's Pippen from 20-25'.. And now he has Magic (Luka).
Got it. Pippen wasn't an All Star in 98. It wasn't because he was injured.
Based on that assessment you'll give LeBron extra credit when he finishes as a Top 3 seed without an All Star this season (Luka was not an All Star).
No one had the perfect career where they're undefeated with preseason favorites, Finals teams, homecourt, 1 or 2 seeds, and barely ever losing with all-star teammate (just the migraine year and baseball year).
Otoh, everyone else has bevies of losses in these scenarios, so it makes no sense to cherry-pick with Bird because we know that no one lost more with these good teams than Lebron - Lebron has the most losses ever with preseason favorites and Finals teams, while also having a losing record w
- yet that is what u ask from LeBron …..
- yes you are right because Larry bird had a better team most of the time then LeBron ever had right ?
And yet u don’t blame Larry bird to have less ring and mvp final then LeBron while bird had a Better team ?
Doesn’t take much sense .
- ok so what’s more important for you to be top 10 isn’t success , it’s about how much they failed ?
Success is irrelevant ?
Maybe Lebron failed because he didn’t t had the luxury like magic Kareem and bird to have much better team to take over when they had a bad game …..
never though of that ?
Ps: it’s funny you give no value at all about longevity record (scoring pts etc) for LeBron but yet because of his longevity , you are blaming him for all the losses , turn over , etc just because he was good enough to lay that long at a high level !
You don’t think that is a problem ?
Something related to longevity has meaning or it doesn’t !
I can’t say all the good thing he done because he play longer it does not count while u use the same principle to blame him when he failed …
Again as usual no consistency at all .
2+2 always equal 4 , not sometimes 3 or sometimes 5 depending on the situation u like or not .
Got it. Pippen wasn't an All Star in 98. It wasn't because he was injured.
Based on that assessment you'll give LeBron extra credit when he finishes as a Top 3 seed without an All Star this season (Luka was not an All Star).
Exactly !
Fg just keep changing the value of something depending what the subject is .
How can u have a serious discussion with somewhat like that ?
Stats , maths, scientific method all goes out the window .
We entering in the mystical quantum world of FG ….
Got it. Pippen wasn't an All Star in 98. It wasn't because he was injured.
Based on that assessment you'll give LeBron extra credit when he finishes as a Top 3 seed without an All Star this season (Luka was not an All Star).
I was using your guys' logic again because another poster used the all-star thing with Kyrie in 2016 to say that Lebron won without an all-star that year.
The reality is that Jordan had a perennial all-star for 7 years while Lebron had 2 for 7 years, and then a rich man's Pippen for 6 (AD).
Why Lebron isn't top 10
1) Cannot carry the star category of scoring against the top teams, so he needs more star help and prevents GM's from signing defensive help.. (Lebron never carried scoring load on championship level, and he never carried weak help over top teams, aka never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick).. The issue is that Lebron's ball-dominance increases as his scoring increases, so he can't carry scoring load vs top teams and needs all-time scoring help.. Otoh, off-ball guys like Curry, MJ and Duncan drop 40 while the ball moves, so they can effectively carry the scoring load and win with less scoring help (and allow the GM to find defensive help).
2) Can't produce great chemistry because his skillset lowers everyone's assists and produces low assist teams, while also imposing spot-up roles that prevent great roster construction.. The common thread for every series loss of Lebron's playoff career is deficits in team assists, so it matters that he lowers teammates' assists and produces low assist teams, while having the spot up role effect on teammates.
3) Cannot win with normal rosters of 1 franchise player due to the aforementioned bad chemistry and brand of ball.
4) Losing record with every type of good team (preseason favorite, Finals team, all-star teammates, top seeds), due to the aforementioned bad chemistry and brand of ball
5 Can't produce great teams (dynasties or dominant champions), due to the aforementioned bad chemistry and brand of ball.
6) Horrible title frequency (due to the bad chemistry and brand of ball)
So if Lakers ship this year, does it help or hurt LeBrons case? Hard to say really
2nd team all-nba in year 22 not GOAT level, no one else has been close to the output this far into their career. He has almost 600 more games played than Jordan, and is well above a much more rested Jordan's level at age 40.
Ya’ll realize that since fallguy argues all sides and does not even have a fixed position (other than his predetermined conclusion that LeBron sucks), he will claim victory no matter what:
If the Lakers collapse and miss the playoffs because Luka and LeBron can’t play together, he was right (this would be a fair “victory” for him).
If the Lakers lose first round and have a roughly equal record to last year, he will claim victory even though this is objectively not collapsing. The ball dominator led to an equal result as the highly assisted big.
But if the Lakers end up with a better record and place in standings, yet lose at any point in the playoffs, he will still say he was right because they didn’t win a championship (even though they objectively improved in this case, after trading away their highly assisted big).
If the Lakers DO happen to win the title, he will just say it doesn’t count because they were not a “dominant champion” or they need to win 3 in a row.
If they do go 16-4 or better in the playoffs? He will just say Luka carried him.
Hell, if they go 16-0 in the playoffs and win by an average of 30 points, he will just say it was because he got carried by Luka and doesn’t count. They could win 6 championships in a row, LeBron could still be a top 5-10 player in the league at 46, and he will just say it doesn’t count because his assisted fg% is 43.2 instead of 43.6.
This is how weasel rats argue: argument by pigheadedness and constant moving of the goalposts.
Due to Lebron being the only player in history that had "top 3" players shipped to him on 3 different occasions, we're forced to start imagining what 5 rings and 5 FMVP's would look like and plan against it (media will rob luka of fmvp).
Let's see what arguments remain the same by noting the "x":
[ x ] can't carry scoring load, so he requires more star help and hinders GM from getting defensive help*
[ x ] horrific chemistry of lowering teammates' assists and producing low assist teams and team assist deficits in every series loss of playoff career.
[ x ] can't win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player due to aforementioned bad chemistry and inability to carry scoring load, so he needs "super-teams of multiple franchise players
[ x ] unprecedented stacked decks and then mostly losing on 3 different occasions
[ x ] underachieving favored rosters by turning 6 consecutive preseason favorites into underdog or loser from 11' to 16', 21', and also 26'.. (edit: Allen miracle)...
[ x ] losing records with every type of good team (preseason favs, Finals, teams, 1 or 2 seeds, all-star teammates)
[ x ] never produced great team (dynasty) or dominant champion (dominant title run)
[ x ] weak title frequency given more star help than anyone ever had
[ x ] arguably not top 10 in anything, such as scoring ability, passing ability, rebounding ability, perimeter defensive ability, clutch ability and many weaknesses like offensive rebounding, turnovers, FT's, clutch efficiency
[ x ] worst-ever combination of efficiency and ball-control in history with 35% and 5 TO's in the 07' Finals & 08' ECSF, while having historic upset losses for 3 straight years from 09-11', i.e. goat loser with normal rosters of 1 franchise, so he needed super-teams of multiple franchise players
* never carried scoring load on championship level, and never carried weak help over top team, aka never won series vs top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick)
^^^ all of these are demonstrations of basketball ability, so bad brand/losing stats or media accolade (media groupthink) shouldn't be part of any top 10 criteria
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