LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

The very fact that Lebron needed a hybrid of Magic/Bird and arguably the best player in the league confirms that he stinks - none of his rings with franchise player teammates mean anything compared the rings with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player won by Kobe, Curry, MJ, Duncan, Jokic, Tatum and others.

And we know that low-assisted 1st options like Luka (he'll lead the scoring in the playoffs) cannot be 1st option for dominant title runs or dynasties (the best basketball), so we know that Luka/Lebron won't be 16-4 in these playoffs.

2nd Team All-NBA isn't goat-level basketball.. Period... Full stop... It's literally top 200 basketball.

And it's a black mark that Lebron needs the league engine behind him by forming super-teams of multiple franchise players that no one else gets, along with 3x the transaction activity as any other team, and perennial leader in FT differential... He's enjoyed this for 15 seasons (same as MJ's career), yet he has half the rings as the best player as MJ, less MVP's, and less of everything.. It's a joke to even compare.

Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

MJ has zero Championships that mean anything as he won them all with Pippen who proved himself a franchise player by finishing 3rd and 7th in the MVP (And all NBA first team, All NBA defensive 1st team in both seasons) in the only two season he was a teams best player.

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Let's see what arguments remain the same by noting the "x":

[ x ] can't carry scoring load, so he requires more star help that hinders GM's from getting defensive help*

[ x ] horrific chemistry of lowering teammates' assists and producing low assist teams, which caused team assist deficits in every series loss of playoff career.

[ x ] can't win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player due to aforementioned bad chemistry and inability to carry scoring load, so he needs "super-teams" of multiple franchise players

[ x ] unprecedented stacked decks and then mostly lost on 3 different occasions

[ x ] underachieving favored rosters by turning 6 straight preseason favorites into underdog or loser from 11' to 16', and also 21' and 26'.. (edit: Allen miracle)...

[ x ] losing records with every type of good team (preseason favs, Finals teams, 1 or 2 seeds, all-star teammates)

[ x ] never produced great team (dynasty) or dominant champion (dominant title run)

[ x ] weak title frequency despite more star help than anyone ever had

[ x ] arguably not top 10 in anything, such as scoring ability, passing ability, rebounding ability, perimeter defensive ability, clutch ability and many weaknesses like offensive rebounding, turnovers, FT's, clutch efficiency, ball-domination, chemistry/fits/teammate performance/never a great team

[ x ] worst-ever combination of efficiency and ball-control in history with 35% and 5 TO's in the 07' Finals & 08' ECSF, while having historic upset losses for 3 straight years from 09-11', i.e. goat loser with normal rosters of 1 franchise, so he needed super-teams of multiple franchise players

* never carried scoring load on championship level, and never carried weak help over top team, aka never won series vs top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick)

^^^ all of these are demonstrations of basketball ability, so bad brand/losing stats or media accolade (media groupthink) shouldn't be part of any top 10 criteria
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Who cares about Lebron playing top 200 basketball for 20 years (2nd team All-NBA) because that's inferior to Jordan playing top 1 basketball for 11 years from 87' to 98'.

MJ won MVP's at the age of 25 and 35, which is the best longevity of MVP-caliber, while Lebron won MVP's during a tight window of 5 years (09-13").. Lebron's MVP's also didn't include titles for half of them, or scoring titles and DPOY for all of them...

MJ was top 2 for MVP from 87-98' except a 3rd in 90' and 93', while Lebron was 4th in 08' or 17', and 11th in 2019.. Lebron is clearly a few levels below Jordan.

Got it. Thank you for clearing that up.

I don't have time right now, but can you let me know all the Top 200 players that averaged 25/8/8 over any reasonable period of time while making deep playoff runs. I was a little surprised by the number, but I know you do your research.

If your counter relies on Pippen being a franchise player, then you lose resoundingly and obviously because he wasn't and he was never built around..

The one time he was thrust into the role, he was literally begging the real franchise player to return midway through the 2nd season after cratering the goat dynasty to barely .500.

If everyone on a team is a worse scorer than Pippen, the team has a serious lack of talent and will fall out of contention quickly, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 1995 (after the ceremonial season and honeymoon of the 94' regular season).. Dominique said Pippen was a role player (here), so you sound silly trying to pretend that a mostly a transition player and defender was a franchise player.

2nd Team All-NBA = top 200 all-time.

That's what the criteria was - it was 2nd Team All-NBA.

But now that I destroyed the idea that making 2nd Team at 40 is goat-caliber basketball, you want to change it to making a deep playoff run with 25 ppg - again, making the WCF with 25 ppg is about a top 150 accomplishment, so I guess you moved him up 50 spots... But still not enough.

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CAREER STATS

Lebron won titles in 20% of his seasons with this:

Wade........ 22.3..... 6.0... 5.4
AD............. 25.2... 12.1... 2.8
Kyrie......... 23.7..... 4.1... 5.6
Luka'......... 27.1..... 8.3... 8.3
Bosh......... 19.2..... 8.5... 2.0
Jamison.... 18.5..... 7.5... 1.6
Love.......... 16.2... 10.0... 2.0
Pippen...... 16.1..... 6.4... 5.2 <------- MJ won in 40% of his seasons with this

When a player needs top 3 players in the league like Luka, AD or Wade, it means the player is inferior to someone that won more with far lesser guys like Hal Greer, Klay, Pippen, Parker, Pau, Horry, or Murray.

So it's pretty simple - Lebron is a fraud by virtue of a skillset that has bad chemistry stats (imposing spot-up roles) that needs the most help ever but still achieves weak title frequency.

Kyrie’s entire career has 1 2nd team all nba and 2x 3rd team. LeBron does this from age 38-40 when 99.9% of players are retired.

Yet Kyrie is seen as a goat level sidekick, top 75 alltime player or better, HoFer etc. per Fraudguy.

LeBron’s longevity is insane considering that after this year, he’ll have 10x more all nba selections than Jordan including 3 more 1st teams minimum. Only 28 guys in history even have 10 selections.

Russel
Wilt with LA
Kareem in LA
Top 5 huh

Yes kinda agree with that .
Pippen great number 2 (obviously there was better but he became a very good number 2 over the years )
Pippen winning as number 1 option ?
Meh .
Never was perceived as a franchise player when being drafted .
Had 3 great season (be perceived as a possible number 1 ) , that’s about it imo .

I personally never perceive pippen on the same tier (franchise) as Malone, Barkley, Wilkins, IT, Robinson, mj, drexler, Ewing, the dream , just from the top of my head shrug ….
When he was draft still bird, magic , Moses playing etc .

Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

Pippen must be on a short list of players that had 3 straight seasons as all nba 1st team (both regular and defensive) and not considered being capable of being a franchise player. Very unlucky for him. I thought he was okay, but being a Top 5 player on both ends of the court for 3 straight seasons obviously not good enough.

He needs to be better like Kyrie who has one All NBA second team in his career and never had a vote for an all defensive team. Then maybe he could be a franchise player.

LOL you said they would lose badly in the playoffs.

I had the extreme foresight... to know LeBron and Luka as teammates would do amazing.

From 2-3-25

So fallguy you were wrong, I was right. Checkmate!

Man, LeBron is 5th in the MVP tracker. That's not very impressive though for someone over 40.

If he loses LeBum; if he wins LeFraud

There is nothing LeBron can do that’s good.

All of your arguments amount to "I heard a few guys at a bar say Pippen was good"... That's what media awards amount to - a few people's opinion... And history shows that winning sidekicks like Klay, Pippen, Pau, Parker and others needed the winning spotlight of titles to be seen as All-NBA by the media - so your argument is fraudulent on many levels - i.e. who cares about a few people's opinion that have group-think regarding carried, winning sidekicks.

So your argument is based on the opinion of Rachel Nichols and Skip Bayless, while my claims are based on Pippen's actual performance of never dominating, getting statistically carried in every series, never hitting a big shot, worst-ever bricklaying/lane-clogging, "just a transition player and defender" (not a scorer), zero clutch (not an option in the 4th quarter), the most historic chokes of any player, and cratering the goat dynasty to barely .500 in less than 18 months.

I'm going by the facts... The league just sent Luka Doncic to the Lakers, so this isn't like sending a 35-year old rebounder to the Bulls in 96'... This is a signal to the league of "let's get this done for Lebron".

If you can't see that, then you're blind and impressionable on this issue.

The "decision" was a decision by the league to send Lebron as many good players as possible for the last 15 seasons to see how many rings he can win - the rigging includes unprecedented team-ups with opposing franchise players, 3x transactional activity and massive FT differential - so this means comprehensive rigging by refs, GM's, league office, and colluding players, yet Lebron's bad chemistry still produces perennial losers with every cast and has the lowest title frequency of any top 10 candidate.

Got it. Thanks for clearing it up. I'm learning so much.

All-NBA teams are based on a few people opinions (checks notes - over 100 people's opinion who follow the sport as part of their full time jobs).

Skip Bayless's love for Scottie Pippen is well known.

And it's good to hear that you now believe Scottie Pippen has the most historic chokes in NBA history. Not LeBron. I personally though it was LeBron, but now that you tell me it's Pippen I'll change it. Unfortunately now that Pippen has the most, it probably bumps LeBron back into the Top 10 of all time. But you're probably right.

Curious to know who you believe in 1995 was considered a franchise player?

I missed some other great points in this post.

Like that winning makes you look better than you actually are. So, like Kyrie for instance. Excellent point!

And I love the comparison of Pippen to other side kicks like Klay, Parker, Kyrie and Pau (I added Kyrie because I think you accidently left him out). I mean, Pippen must have got a lot more attention by the media though. Those other 3 didn't have any All NBA first teams even once between them. Weird. But obviously the same level for the people in the know like us.

Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014 before Lebron arrived, and this was after being the prodigal #1 pick after about 8 college games... But again, Kyrie's range isn't 15-22 ppg of mostly transition like Pippen - Pippen was viewed like Draymond and never expected to go toe-to-toe with the best players in the league, while Kyrie was considered a 1b that would match Lebron's scoring and outplay MVP Curry or young MJ... Kyrie put Luka over the top in 2024 and Lebron in 2016, so he essentially made the Finals on his own since he did it with both.

Again, having guys like Kyrie that can dominate clutch-time and "take over" the scoring load allows the GM to sign defenders like Mosgov, Birdman, Tristan, Shumpert, Varejao, Shawn Marion, Jae Crowder, Jeff Green, and George Hill.

Lebron's skillset of using teammates as bailout options REQUIRES this type of all-time-scoring "closer" and saver of possessions, games and legacies.. Otoh, Pippen was just a transition player/defender that forced others to carry the scoring load, such as Bonzi, Rasheed, Sabonis, Steve Smith, Barkley, Hakeem, and of course MJ.

Fallguy,
What do you think would happen if LeBron and Jordan played together on the same team, both at their absolute peak? Jordan at shooting guard and LeBron wherever you think he would fit best — I assume either point forward or like a hybrid small forward.

Would the team collapse because LeBron’s brand of ball must lead to terrible team chemistry, would the team be elite because Michael Jordan’s assisted rate would will the team to organically become a dynasty? Something in between?

Prime LeBron and Prime Jordan would win the title every year even if Fidstar, Matt R were teammates, I was the final starter and played wearing oven mitts.

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Pippen vs Reggie Lewis as #1 options in the playoffs

Playoffs

92' LEWIS..... 28/4/4.. 57.0 ts.. 23.8 PER.. 0.177 ws.. 4.1 dbpm.. 2.6 obpm.. 6.8 bpm.. 0.9 vorp
94' PIPPEN... 23/8/5.. 52.1 ts.. 22.8 PER.. 0.149 ws.. 4.0 dbpm.. 1.6 obpm.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.7 vorp

Let me ask you something... Do you think the mainstream media (Skip, Rachel, Stephen A, Broussard, Nick Wright, Shannon Sharpe, Colin Cowherd, Molly, Joy Taylor, etc) provide better insight and analysis than the best youtubers that analyze basketball?

Keep in mind that all of those names that I mentioned don't know what usage is (shot attempts) and conflate it with ball-domination (hold-time).. This is a simple example that shows the child-like level that they understand the game relative to what's actually going on.. There's no correlation of their predictions being right - they simply shift their position from game to game... Watch what happens when the Lakers lose tonight - "we always said that the Lakers were deficient inside the needed a center".. Complete poppycock and lazy, knee-jerk, "accidental" journalism.

So given the proven low-caliber of knowledge possessed by these TV personalities, why wouldn't you give credence to the unbiased historical record that Pippen never provided anywhere near the help that Kyrie did in the 16' or 17' Playoffs, or 24' Playoffs??... That's better than Pippen ever played, so MJ would presumably win all 3 years with Kyrie's superior playmaking, scoring, and clutch.

People troll MJ's 34/6/6 stats and say he was 1-dimensional, but the 1 time that Pippen had no bed-wetting and didn't shoot below league average TS in the playoffs (1991) was the 1 year that MJ averaged 11 assists.. So if he had more consistent help like this from Pippen, then he would have the super-easy 27/7/7 load that Lebron and Luka have.

Lebron has 2 historic chokes - 2010 and 2011, while Pippen has 3 (the "migraine", the "sit-out" game, and losing 17 pt lead in 4th of 2000 WCF).. But Pippen has a lot of smaller chokes (so does Lebron), but Pippen truly wasn't a scorer and he basically played like Lebron's 2011 Finals all the time - Pippen's numbers of 18/7/6 from 91-98' alongside MJ with worst-ever clutch are exactly the same as Lebron's 2011 Finals.

The best players in the 90's are widely-known to be the guys that led their team to the Finals as 1st option, so this would be MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley, Malone, Drexler, and Ewing, while Robinson had the big injury but gets credit for 99'... That's 8 guys, but we know that Grant Hill and Penny were considered franchise players too, while Payton has more All-NBA and All-Defense than Pippen plus DPOY - so he's better at scoring, passing, defense, and leadership... Kemp also destroyed Pippen in the 96' Finals, or outplayed him against the 98' Pacers (26 on 46% for Kemp compared to 16 on 39% for Pippen) - Kemp began the HS to NBA phenomenon and was better at every age, while carrying Zydrunas to the playoffs in 98' (even though the alcoholic Kemp was past his prime).

So that's 12 guys (MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Grant Hill, Penny, Drexler, Robinson, Ewing, Malone, Barkley, Kemp, Payton).. Tim Hardaway and KJ were also considered franchise players and elite scorers and distributors... So that's 14 guys.. Mitch Richmond... 15... Pippen's caliber was lower and along the lines of Nance, Schrempf, Elliot, or Iguodala.. Reggie Lewis was better than Pippen (see stats above).. The only reason that these guys had shorter stints in the 18-22 ppg range than Pippen is because they didn't get development and stability of 9 years alongside the goat, while also being on stacked teams with bevies of scorers to share with.

Btw, if Nash is a franchise player, than Stockton is too because every scintilla of evidence shows that Stockton was a rich man's Nash... However, for some reason the media decided to flip how they view the relationship between the big athletic finisher (Malone or Amare) and the short, low-producing distributor (Stockton or Nash), thereby viewing the short distributor as the MVP for first time ever.. So that's 16 franchise guys in 1995.
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