LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

You said he lost two series bc Pippen didn't score enough.

That means he needed more scoring help those games. He couldn't close the deal by being a single player in a team sport, just like all his wins too. This isn't hard.

Pippen wasn't a franchise player because he wasn't a 1st option... Otoh, guys like Mullin, Hardaway or Richmond were.

They were good right away and quickly became elite scorers (as required of franchise players), while Pippen was an 8 PPG rookie that wasn't even a 15 PPG scorer outside the triangle and virtually never asked to take big shots.. Think about it - he was just an athlete-defender type that wasn't asked to take big shots.

Accordingly, Pippen was never tasked with building a team from scratch because if everyone on a team is a worse scorer than Pippen, then the team has a serious lack of talent.. So instead of building a team from scratch like a franchise player does, he was given a ready-made dynasty that had 3-peat chemistry already... Yet it still ended up being a good example of what happens when you give a 3rd or 4th option his own team - it gets quickly destroyed to barely .500 in less than 18 months.

Btw, you're laughing at Hardaway getting 20 and 10 APG but there were no high-scoring ball-dominators back then because ball-dominance was considered bad (where do you think I got it from??)... So 20/10 from a point guard was considered elite and dominating.. Many of Jordan's peers enjoyed all-time floor generals that averaged 10-15 APG like Hardaway, Stockton, Payton and KJ, while Jordan was stuck with Pippen's 5 assists, bricklaying and choking.

Finally, the Bulls had a chance to beat the Pistons in 89' if they had any 2nd option instead of Pippen missing the closeout game, so the reality is that they didn't improve much from the 89' to 91'... Pippen increased from 14.4 to 17.8 and BJ increased a couple points, but that's it... Jordan simply won with a really low-producing cast of cheap defenders that had simply learned effective basketball... There were no additions of talent, so the "lose, try again" approach produced an improvement of pure basketball that produced the greatest team ever.

Again, the argument was never that Jordan went 1 on 5 and basketball isn't a team sport - you're trying to make this the argument because you lost the real one.

The real argument was that Jordan needed the least of the biggest help category - scoring help.

Jordan's ability to carry the scoring load required less stars to win and allowed the GM to find defensive help - this is why carrying the scoring load is a top 10 criteria and Lebron lacks it.. Lebron never carried the scoring load on the championship level (never defeated max defensive attention) and never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick)..

Again, he's too ball-dominant as his scoring levels get high, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams and needs all-time scoring help.. This contrasts with Curry, MJ or Duncan that drop 40 while the ball moves, so they can carry the scoring load and win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.

You just don't understand positions. You're comparing Pippen to point guards and then comparing Jordan (a shoot first scoring guard) to a point forward (a better Magic ftmp) and then complaining that LeBron doesn't do what a scoring guard does. When it's pointed out to you that's there's other things in basketball besides scoring you hand wave it and keep posting your walls of text that you alter slightly, post, delete, alter a little more, post, delete, then settle on a final version.

Don't feel embarrassed that Lebron needs so much scoring help because everyone did, except Jordan.. It's one of the many good reasons that he's the goat.

And I'm just pointing out that Jordan actually needed less playmaking help too, since Pippen averaged less assists than other 90's sidekicks, or Lebron's sidekicks (Kyrie, Wade, Luka, Reaves), or Jordan himself..

Jordan had a good chance to beat the Bad Boys with the 14 ppg version of Pippen in 89', and Pippen was only at 17.8 when Jordan began the goat dynasty in 91'... Essentially , Jordan won so many chips with cheap defenders that they're looked at as more than that.. All 6 chips were won with low producers and Jordan carrying the load.. Imagine going into a playoffs and knowing that you'll have to win the title without any teammates ever scoring 30 points - you must completely take over every night.. Pippen scored 30 six times in his playoff career.

It's also interesting because everyone had a better playmaker than Pippen like Kemp had Payton or Ewing had Mark Jackson, while also having a forward to destroy Pippen like X-Man, Schrempf, Barkley, Dumas or Malone.. And then Horace was destroyed at 3rd option by the opponents' 3rd and 4th option.

That's not a counter to what I posted at all. It's just more of what you do. You can't discuss it bc you don't understand it.

Lebron needed a lot more scoring help and playmaking help, yet your counter is to say that I don't understand positions?

That isn't a counter either.

Scoring is the star category, so Lebron's inability to carry the scoring load requires more stars and leaves less room for defenders.

It isn't better to need franchise players like AD, Luka and Wade plus franchise guys at 3rd option because you can't carry the scoring load, rather than just need some cheap defenders because you CAN carry the scoring load.

Lebron is a 1st option, so his primary job is to score and he simply does it far worse than Jordan.... Since he can't carry the star category of scoring, he needs more star help and prevents the GM from signing as much defensive help... Any role player can pass and rebound, but only stars can score a lot.

Playoff Stats for First 9 Years of Playoff career before Curry's Spacing Era Made Offense Easier For Everyone From in 2015 Onwards:


85-93' Jordan........ 35/7/7 (6.6 APG)
06-14' Lebron....... 28/8/6 (6.4 APG)

So Lebron and Jordan were always comparable passers but Lebron's skillset is massive ball-domination, so it gets noticed more.

And regarding the scoring, part of the reason that Lebron can't win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player is because he can't carry the scoring load, such as failing to carry the scoring load on the championship level, or carry weak help over top teams (beat top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick).

.
.

PIPPEN - weak scorer/system player <---- MJ must carry scoring load*

KYRIE - all-time scoring ability <---- Lebron gets to chill

LUKA - all-time scoring ability <---- Lebron gets to chill

WADE - all-time scoring ability <---- Lebron gets to chill

AD - all-time scoring ability <---- Lebron gets to chill

* defeat max defensive attention

The reason Lebron needs the all-time scoring help is because he can't carry the scoring load... Specifically, he's too ball-dominant as his scoring levels get high, so he can't carry the scoring load against top teams and needs all-time scoring help.. This contrasts with Curry, MJ or Duncan that drop 40 while the ball moves, so they can carry the scoring load and win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.

Thank you for the knowledge explosion. So wonderful. I think I got it now.

So Franchise guys are good straight away. Looking at the numbers Mullin, Hardaway and Mitch peaked when playing with each other. But they lost. So weird. I assumed winning has something to do with being a franchise player, but that's silly talk. Especially when you have 3 of them. I mean you dinged LeBron when he only won 2 out of 4 chips with 2 other franchise players (2 other finals appearances). But, once again, silly talk.

They also need to be high scorers (or scorers and assisters).

Like now. Ball, Fox and Maxey. All high scorers. All franchise players. I couldn't agree more.

Definitely more so than Pippen.

I'm sure Pippen would go last in a draft of those 4 players.

I am curious though. You ding Pippen for not being built around. Which of the 3 players for the GSW did they build around? Can't be all three. Doesn't make sense. I'm sure you know.

No because Lebron had a bummy 45-win team in Year 5 (2008) until he got the all-star spacer that his stiff arm needs to open everything up.

Lebron was also lottery in 2019 I'm his prime, or 04' and 05'... And also 1st Round loser in 22' and 24', yet he's still a "franchise player".

I'll say Mullin but they did a poor job... The 04-10' Cavs did an amazing job by comparison.

(by 2010, the Cavs had acquired a better scorer than Pippen to be 3rd option, while already having better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls)

Pippen wasn't a 1st option or built around by a franchise (franchise player), which is why he was handed a ready-made goat dynasty with 3-peat chemistry... Yet it still ended up being a good example of what happens when you give a 3rd or 4th option his own team - it gets quickly destroyed to barely .500 in less than 18 months.. With Pippen as the best scorer, a team simply lacks talent and a real 1st option that you trust to make the big shot.. Remember that Pippen was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer, otherwise he was a tertiary option and not even a 15 ppg scorer outside the triangle.

Fallguy , is scoring 27-28 ppg average high or low ?
Why you keep saying lebron need more help in scoring then anyone else to win when his at the 7th rank all time in ppg in scoring, to win ?

You really believe Russel, a guy you put at number 2 all time, had less need of scorers beside him then lebron ?
Wtf ….

Because Lebron is the only guy that had sidekicks outplay league MVP's like Curry (Kyrie), Jokic (AD), and Dirk (Wade), and also young MJ (Kyrie), while also being the only guy with sidekicks that made the Finals without him (Kyrie, Wade).. He's also the only team in the league with super-teams of multiple franchise players from 2011-2016 and 2020-present.. Also, how many guys have a sidekick average 27+ in a Finals like Lebron enjoyed in 11', 16', 17' and 20'?... (edit: "only" 25 from AD in 20' Finals).

It's a low default/standard level for elite scorers like KD, Kobe and of course Jordan - the standard for prime versions of these guys was 30+, while Lebron's was 25+.

Lebron won titles with only 25 ppg because he needed more scoring help and had it.

Otoh, it's high for 2nd option.. I think that only Lebron had 2nd options that averaged 27 in the Finals (11', 16', 17', 20')

This is what it’s all about, in the end. The religiosity that surrounds Jordan is antithetical to how the world actually works. Sports are constantly improving. Players are more athletic (only slightly, but still) and far more skilled. Nutrition is better, more is known about stress and recovery. Coaching is more advanced, systems are more complex. But the Jordan argument supposes that basketball perfection was attained in 1998 and can never be surpassed.

It’s so ****ing stupid.

Once again, learning so much. I think I'm almost there.

Got it. Winning has nothing to do with being a franchise player. Just scoring. So, you must have missed Rice, Howard, Ricky Pierce, Daugherty, Gill, Abdur-Rahim, Finlay and Rider. Obvious franchise player. Scored a lot. Sad that Pippen is not considered a Franchise player, where as these guys are. Such a con job by the media t have us believe that Pippen was better than these guys.

I mean none of those guys probably have an All NBA first team between them. But that's irrelevant.

Also, poor construction around Mullin is a bit sad too. Adding two franchise players and a HoF coach. Terrible construction. It's almost like it's not all about scoring. I mean it seems like that. But obviously not.

Building around a star with component that they need to be successful. Not possible.

Like maybe building around Pippen with Mullin and Hardaway would work well. Nah, no chance of being successful though. I mean he made it work with Grant and a lot of other terrible players (as you have pointed out all the Bulls players were), but this wouldn't work.

Also sad that Kidd, Walton, Nash, Thurmond and Bill Russell can't be considered franchise players. Just didn't score enough. Can't build around them.

A reminder that LeBron James has the most points scored in the history of the NBA, and he has led his team in scoring every single year of his 22 year NBA career, except 2019-20 (where he averaged 25.3/10.2/7.8).

LeBron’s career TS% is higher than Jordan’s despite playing 7 more years (and counting).

One could convincingly argue that LeBron is actually a superior and more efficient scorer than Jordan, as fallguy’s arguments are starting to highlight, by getting people to fact check him and look at the data in more detail. The Klutch Sports mole cannot be stopped.

I think it’s also important to highlight that when Jordan was not playing for Chicago, on a team that unwaveringly fed him the ball, he averaged 14.9 ppg on .451 shooting (‘92 Olympics) and 17.7 ppg (UNC). These were the only times in his career where he was on a balanced offense with other elite scorers, and he couldn’t even break 18 ppg.

Here is fallguy agreeing with our central point — that LeBron James feeding other players assists does not decrease their scoring efficiency. Therefore it is actually a good thing when a player creates assists. Even when that player is LeBron James.

Outside of the Chicago Bulls offense, which fed him the ball constantly via assists, Michael Jordan was unable to average 30 ppg — he averaged under 15 ppg on .451 shooting when he played with other elite scorers at the ‘92 Olympics. He averaged under 18 ppg in college, at an age when LeBron was already dominating the NBA and nearly winning MVP.

Steph Curry capped out at 24 ppg until Steve Kerr took over as Warriors coach. He did not score 30 ppg until Kerr installed the appropriate triangle-inspired motion offense.

This is definitive proof that coach, scheme, and offensive system matter. Once again refuting fallguy’s central point and solving the thread from a different angle.

You're just making us dumb **** now because you can't defend Pippen's weak scoring.

None of the guys you mentioned were ELITE scorers except Glen Rice, who was better-suited for franchise player than Pippen and outplayed him HU twice in the playoffs.. Daughtery was also a franchise player and better than Pippen...

But the other guys - no - Ricky Pierce and Finley weren't elite scorers or franchise players... However , neither was Pippen.. Pippen was a Finley-level talent - that's my point.. He's simply inflated because his Finley caliber was dragged to 6 titles.

Get off this All NBA bullshit and the opinion of Rachel Nichols and Skip Bayless - if you can't point to actual PERFORMANCE, then you have no argument...

It means nothing to cite All-NBA when we've already established that secondary producing sidekicks that win titles are inflated by winning spotlight and don't make All-NBA until they win titles..

All-NBA simply holds zero water in any comparison of players.. No one would know who Pippen was if he was averaging 20 for a losing team.. We know this because that's what happened with Horace Grants brother!!!!.. Harvey Grant was an 18 PPG scorer that was comparable to Horace, yet no one knows about him because he didn't get dragged to 6 titles like Horace or Pippen.

History shows that it's ONLY about scoring because that's the biggest category of help that everyone needed the most of, except the GOAT...

The goat needed the least of the biggest type of help - scoring help

Everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ carried the scoring load in every SERIES.

Only the goat didn't need a go-to player as a teammate.

Mullin and Hardaway are far superior scorers than Pippen, so Pippen would be the secondary producer that is added around THEM...

You can't build around Pippen because he can't score well enough - if everyone on a team is a worse scorer than a transition player like Pippen, then the team has serious lack of talent and will crater QUICKLY, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95' - Pippen was handed the goat team and it cratered to barely .500 in less than 18 months.. Pippen was mostly a dunker and not a scorer, so how can you build around him with weaker scorers than a dunker?.. It's impossible.

You just compared all-time floor generals that averaged 10-15 APG to a guy that averaged 5 and never got over 7.

And every all-time floor general like Magic, Nash, Stockton or Lebron needs an all-time dominant scorer and "closer" to pass to, so they have never been ideal franchise players compared to the actual closers themselves like Duncan, MJ, Curry, etc.

Pippen doesn't compare as a scorer or passer to the guys you mentioned - you're comparing dominant elite producers like Walton to a dunker and low producer like Pippen, which is really dumb.

Epic meltdown from fallguy. I think we need to back off the facts and logic for a bit and let him cool off.

My post literally said "if a ball-dominator joins the team (like Lebron), and forces you off-ball into a more spot-up role, this should decrease your stats"

and yet you're lying and saying that I said it would increase.

Lebron reduced all his teammates' PPG and APG because his skillset turns them into spot-up shooter (drastically increased their assisted rate and reduced their APG).. This is all statistical fact so you simply fell for a fraud that destroys teammates and therefore has a worst-ever chemistry and title frequency.

And Jordan averaged 30-41ppg in the triangle from 90-93', or outside the triangle from 85-90', so he's the GOAT scorer regardless of offense.

Jordan was unwaveringly fed the ball by Bulls coaches the moment he arrived in Chicago (both pre and post triangle). He was the face of the franchise and the NBA — he was great for business.

He could not turn this into championship basketball until Phil Jackson arrived though. He was still force fed the ball (again, he was the NBA mega star and golden goose), it was just more balanced.

Outside of Chicago, when he wasn’t deliberately fed the ball nearly every possession, he averaged 14.9 ppg on .451 shooting (‘92 Olympics) and 17.7 ppg (college — at an age when LeBron was getting NBA MVP votes).

This proves that coach and scheme matter. It is the system, and how a player is utilized in that system, that dictates stats like assisted fg%. It can also have a huge impact on scoring average. Michael Jordan only averaged 14.9 ppg on .451 shooting when he played with other elite scorers in the ‘92 Olympics and was not force fed the ball via assists every possession. This is all historical fact and refutes the entirety of your arguments.

Lebron cannot carry the scoring load vs top teams, so he's an inferior scorer to other guys that can, while his inability to carry the scoring load prevents him from winning with normal rosters of 1 franchise player, and also prevents the GM from getting defensive help.

Specifically, Lebron lacks the scoring ability to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load vs top teams), so he needs equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention like Wade, AD, and Luka, while also needing franchise guys at 3rd option.. This need for the best scorers in the league confirms that Lebron isn't a great scorer and simply amassed points by playing longer than everyone else.

Lebron is too ball-dominant at high scoring levels, so he can't carry the scoring load vs top teams, while expert jumpshooters or bigs can drop 49 while the ball moves and therefore carry the scoring load (MJ, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Hakeem)... This ability to carry the scoring load against top teams and therefore defeat max defensive attention makes all these guys better scorers than Lebron.. Other guys like Wilt, Durant, Iverson and West are also better scorers.

Using college and the Olympics to show that Jordan wasn't the best scorer is dumb and not worth responding to.

It shows that you lost the argument.