LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
The Bulls went 47-35 that year, finished 5th in their division, 6th in the Eastern conference, and then went 9-8 in the playoffs. They won two games vs the Pistons, but it’s important to not cherry pick and respect sample size. The other 97 games matter too, and 97 games is a greater sample size than 2.
Again, you should improve your reading comp..
it was clear to anyone that watched those playoffs and it was common knowledge that BY THE END of the 89' Playoffs, MJ had built the Bulls to the 2nd-best team and steepest trajectory in the league.. Phil inherited an impending champion.. That's what the historical record shows.. The Bulls could've won in 89' or 90' but Pippen missed the closeout game both years.
Rudy Gobert has a 90% assisted rate, so does that mean he's demanding the ball more than anyone else?
It means he's in more of a play-finishing role, which is loosely called "spot-up" role... These are the lower production roles that only generational players can achieve dominant stats within (Curry, MJ).
I'm merely informing you of the historical record that Phil was the dummy that thought Jordan wouldn't be scoring champ anymore in the triangle, and then Jordan proceeded to be scoring champ 7 of 7 times in the triangle.
How could the so-called genius be so wrong??
Again, he did the same thing today's pundits do - Phil conflated shot attempts (37 ppg) with ball-domination (hold-time) because he didn't have assisted rate stat to guide him.. It would've shown him that Jordan's buckets are already assisted often and his hold-time was already pretty solid for a high-scorer (time of possession)... Upon seeing these numbers, Phil would've thought for 2 seconds about Jordan's game and it would've clicked - Jordan's quick-hitting game, quick pull-up's, and turnaround jumper is perfect for the triangle.
Again, you should improve your reading comp..
it was clear to anyone that watched those playoffs and it was common knowledge that BY THE END of the 89' Playoffs, MJ had built the Bulls to the 2nd-best team and steepest trajectory in the league.. Phil inherited an impending champion.. That's what the historical record shows.. The Bulls could've won in 89' or 90' but Pippen missed the closeout game both years.
Wait, what?!?!?!?
Jordan needed Pippen to seal the deal? I thought Pippen sucked?
You meant to disparage Pippen again but didn't think that one through
The reason that there's a lot of time and effort spent on catching gambling cheaters is because one guy doing some point-shaving has a massive impact on the outcome.
Accordingly, no one is saying the Bulls needed Pippen to be a hero - the bulls never needed that from pippen... But don't go 1-10 with 2 points and a "migraine" excuse that makes the gambling enforcement investigate to see if any big bets were placed... Don't play so badly that it sabotages the outcome.. Pippen did that in 1989 closeout game (1 point) and also 1990 (2 points)...
If he just did his normal 19 on 42% trash Finals averages that would get any of Lebron's sidekicks traded or LEFT by Lebron - that trash would've been more than enough to win titles in 89' and 90' so MJ could 5-peat.
Sounds like Jordan needed some scoring help
Nope... He averaged 10-30 more than Pippen in every series, while everyone else in history needed teammates to lead for entire playoff runs... Only Jordan carried the load in every series, playoff run and Finals, because only Jordan lacked a go-to teammate for his entire career... Everyone else had these dominant scorers as teammates, except Jordan.
Is it possible anyone could ever come along who is greater than MJ?
This shouldn't be considered "help"
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CAREER FINALS
Jordan...... 34 ppg... 6.0 apg... 2.8 TO.. 48%.. goat clutch
Pippen..... 19 ppg... 5.9 apg... 3.3 TO.. 42%.. zero clutch (worst-ever)
CAREER PLAYOFFS WITH BULLS
Jordan...... 33 ppg... 5.7 apg... 3.1 TO.. 49%
Pippen..... 18 ppg... 5.3 apg... 2.9 TO.. 45%
There's never been a bigger example of a teammate getting carried to chips and garnering media accolade from the winning spotlight...
On another team, 19 on 42% would be "just another guy" in the NBA, but when the GOAT is dragging that crap to titles, then it's considered all-time.
People claim that "scoring isn't everything", except that's the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needed, aside from the GOAT.. Everyone in history needed teammates to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led his sidekick by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES.. So MJ is the only guy in history that was forced to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) in every series.. (edit: there are 3 series where MJ led his sidekick by 9, 8 and 4 pts).
It's hard to imagine because the rim is only 10 feet - it's fixed and finite... so there IS an optimal physique and size for a player to have.
MJ was slender enough to slither off screens among traffic, while Lebron is too big and bulky to guard Klay off screens of run off screens himself..
There's a size limit to the game where now a less optimal physique needs an extra half second to do something - and that eliminates the perfect chemistry, timing, and basketball compared to what MJ brings to a team..
When you watch MJ dribble - it's a power dribble.. Each step and dribble has a lot of force and that's because MJ fits a Zion or Giannis-like athleticism into the perfect basketball body and 6'6" physique - so it's a power dribble that's different from your typical 6'6" guy like say, Harden, Booker, or even Kobe... He's also the only guy that is a goat athlete (like Kemp, Zion, Blake, Ja, Lebron, Wilt, Dr. J, Dominique, etc) that is also a goat jumpshooter on either 2's or 3's... MJ had goat touch on his shot-making that you don't see from goat athletes.
so, no.
I didn't know if you'd give the easy answer or the honest one. Awesome, thx.
I think my reasoning is sound because the dimensions of the court are fixed and finite, so there is an optimal size and physique that maximizes 4 other guys and elite coaching strategy.
I think we've seen it already..
And it was so great and dominant that it retired out of boredom twice.. People don't realize how unique that is for someone to retire in the middle of their prime.
And that's part of the frustration of today's game - it's "chasing the dragon" of Jordan - it'll never get there.
Nope... He averaged 10-30 more than Pippen in every series, while everyone else in history needed teammates to lead for entire playoff runs... Only Jordan carried the load in every series, playoff run and Finals, because only Jordan lacked a go-to teammate for his entire career... Everyone else had these dominant scorers as teammates, except Jordan.
Soooo he needed scoring help. By using normal definitions of English words and how phrases and sentences are constructed. When Pippen didn’t score enough, Jordan lost.
I think my reasoning is sound because the dimensions of the court are fixed and finite, so there is an optimal size and physique that maximizes 4 other guys and elite coaching strategy.
You know it could be possible that Michael Jordan isn’t the absolute perfect human specimen that could ever be born or created.
Like maybe there could be a basketball player one day that doesn’t need the ball fed to him every play via assists to be effective — scoring 14.9 on .451 shooting in the Olympics or 17.7 ppg in college.
Pippen couldn't go behind the back like Mullin does here, and Pippen couldn't set up the crossover like Mullin does here:
I'm glad you brought up Chris Mullin, who completely destroys Pippen as a scorer, shooter, leader, dog, and winner, and was also good friends with MJ.. MJ and Mullin would fit like a glove and they would win every year from 89' to 95' (7-peat).. If MJ retires in 1993, then I guess they just 5-peat.. Mullin averaged 26/6/4 for the 5 seasons from 89' to 93' and didn't fall off p
Man, you keep filling my brain with so much knowledge.
Okay. Mitch, Hardaway and Mullin were all franchise players that played together.
But they were a bit young for success.
Seems weird to change how we are accessing franchise players, but that's okay.
Aged 24, 25 and 27 in their last season together.
A bit young to be franchise players. So, better to judge them at an age a bit older, because it's not reasonable to consider them franchise players at such a young age.
Pippen on the other hand at that age was helping the Bulls 3-peat. I mean he had nothing to do with them going from a 50ish winning team with MJ to a team that one year won 67 games and won 3 straight Championships. MJ was basically the same player from the late 80s to his first retirement (as you have said). But the team improved a lot. Definitely not because his side kick was really awesome. Some would say they had the ability of a franchise player, but not you and me. We know basketball!
But, maybe you are right. Let's access them when they are a bit older. What, 28 to 29? That's probably fair, right?
Pippen was finishing Top 3 in the MVP, winning 50 games a season, All NBA first team, All defensive first team at the ages of 28 and 29. Not a franchise player obviously.
Meanwhile franchise players Mitch Richmond was averaging 22ppg (not many assists or rebounds, but that's not important) and leading Sac to 28 and 39 win seasons.
Hardaway was averaging around 18ppg and leading his team to 28 and 36 win seasons. Leading may be the wrong term. He wasn't the teams best player. But still a franchise player obviously.
Mullin was good. Really good, before he got injured when he was 29. Never really got back after that. So, he was too young to be accessed as a franchise player when he was 27, and he was done being a star at 29. But, obviously a franchise player for those two year. 2 years... sort of like Pippen when MJ was out.
Thanks for teaching me. I'm learning so much.
I can’t believe I just skimmed past this earlier. It’s such a gem.
You're misperceiving some things because it's easier to put up numbers with a low assisted rate because it means you have the ball all the time - you don't need to be assisted by teammates because you already have the ball, which makes it easy to score..
Tell me you’ve never played basketball without saying you’ve never played basketball. You’re saying it’s easier to score when you already have the ball in your hands, vs receiving an assist and scoring. Why would anyone, any team, any system, ever pass the ball then? A player already has the ball in their hands as soon as they inbound it. If that’s the easiest position to score from, then it would be the most efficient, by definition. So the correct play would be to never pass the ball, as that makes it harder to score.
How much time have you spent cultivating this fake basketball expert persona you have going on?
Otoh, if a ball-dominator joins the team (like Lebron), and forces you off-ball into a more spot-up role, this should decrease your stats, unless you're a generational offensive player that can average 30 off-the-ball, such as Curry, MJ, Malone or Jokic - they're better to play with because they don't force anyone off-ball.. That's why these guys are so valuable - they're skilled enough to fit 30 ppg into 4-5 minutes time of possession with a lot of assisted buckets, so teammates are involved and the ball moves even when they score 50.... The ball simply MOVES when there isn't a guy like Luka holding the ball for 9.0 minutes, lol.
The current Cavs, Celtics and Nuggets lack the dreaded Luka or Lebron-style ball-dominator that has high time of possession.. Mitchell and Garland are awesome.. I could see them winning the East easily, although I went with the Celtics.. The Celtics don't have the typical swagger of a team that repeats - the 92' Bulls, 90' Pistons, 01' Lakers all had banner years after they finally broke through.
So, in summary:
When Jordan scores off-ball this is good.
When LeBron gives an assist, allowing another player to score off-ball, this is bad.
When LeBron scores points, it is bad.
When Jordan scores points, it is good.
When LeBron scores points it is easy because it’s easier to score with the ball in your hands. But he should stop doing this because it is bad.
When Jordan scores points it is off-ball so it is harder than how LeBron does it, but he should keep taking these harder scoring opportunities because it is good.
Do you wake up in the mornings and decide “hey I’m going to spend 5 hours today posting the dumbest **** in the history of basketball”?
Sometimes he doesn't wake up in the morning because this discussion required an all nighter to be pulled.
Soooo he needed scoring help. By using normal definitions of English words and how phrases and sentences are constructed. When Pippen didn’t score enough, Jordan lost.
Again, you're making up something that I didn't say, so you can argue against it.
The argument was that scoring help is the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needs, and Jordan needed by far the least of it..
Jordan's ability to carry the scoring load required less stars to win and allowed the GM to find defensive help - this is why carrying the scoring load is a top 10 criteria and Lebron lacks it.. Lebron never carried the scoring load on the championship level (never defeated max defensive attention), and he never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick).
So again, Jordan needed the least of the biggest kind of help - scoring help... Specifically, everyone in history needed a teammate to lead them in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every series... So MJ is the only guy that was forced to face maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) in every series of his career.
Secondly, anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals, but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg.
Thirdly, it's statistical fact that MJ casts had the lowest ppg of any winning Finals cast.
Fourthly, every top 10 candidate had "go-to" 2nd options that were capable of big shots and elite scoring, while MJ was stuck with mostly a dunker/defender and historic bricklayer/lane-clogger/choker.. This worst-ever scoring help is why MJ was forced to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load) more than anyone in history.. This entailed 5 more PPG than anyone in history with more than 50 playoff games, such as Durant, Kobe, Lebron - all the best scorers in history).. Jordan also has the highest PER, WS/48, BPM, and 5 of the top 7 VORP seasons... These are all modern stats that were created after Jordan retired, so it's remarkable that a guy from previous eras still leads all of them.. The first and last consensus GOAT.
