LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Related question, but what do you think of the fact that when Michael Jordan actually played with other elite offensive players in the 1992 Olympics, he was no longer the leading scorer on his own team? In fact he had the lowest fg% on the entire roster other than Christian Laettner. Jordan was at .451, and Laettner the college player was at .450.
Given that Jordan never played with any other good offensive player when he was with the Bulls (you acknowledge Pippen was trash), this seems to prove that Jordan was a product of the system and he was a bit of a ball hog. A good player yes, but only when he was force fed the ball in the proper scheme. When he played with other all-NBA talent in a well balanced offense he was no longer the best player on his own team.
No I didn't. 5 Jalens would easily win. Jalen is much closer to Pippen than Richmond also.
Stop comparing Draymond to Pippen, Draymond is much more Rodman ldo.
Pippen couldn't score.. He learned to scrape together 15-20 flow points in the triangle but otherwise wasn't a 15 ppg scorer... So he absolutely compares to the 14/10/7 player that peak Draymond was in 2016.. That version of Draymond is actually better overall than Pippen (shooting, rebounding, passing, leadership, clutch).
If you don't like Draymond, then Iguodala or Larry Nance are pretty generous comparisons to Pippen.. Remember that Pippen enjoyed 9 seasons without facing defensive attention alongside MJ, but still benefitting from the unprecedented development and spotlight - he was completely carried and the boxscore shows that.
Pippen couldn't score.. He learned to scrape together 15-20 flow points in the triangle but otherwise wasn't a 15 ppg scorer... So he absolutely compares to the 14/10/7 player that peak Draymond was in 2016.. That version of Draymond is actually better overall than Pippen (shooting, rebounding, passing, leadership, clutch).
If you don't like Draymond, then Iguodala or Larry Nance are pretty generous comparisons to Pippen.. Remember that Pippen enjoyed 9 seasons without facing defensive attention
... and the one he wasn't he was 3rd in MVP.
Keep arguing around facts tho.
I’m starting to realize that if Pippen was a bad offensive player, Jordan was not the best player on the ‘92 Olympic team, and Phil Jackson winning 11 titles (5 without Jordan), while Jordan won 0 titles without Phil, more or less proves Jordan was a system player in a way.
A great scorer yes, but he was only able to channel this into team success with the right coach and within the right system. Outside of that he was more or less a failure. There is no way he could succeed with a ball dominant player on the roster.
Fallguy,
Given your unwillingness to respond to the above posts, I am guessing you have realized that Michael Jordan, despite his high assisted fg%, would not be good enough to retain his scoring numbers if he played with LeBron or some other ball dominant player, and his scoring average would tank?
You're misperceiving some things because it's easier to put up numbers with a low assisted rate because it means you have the ball all the time - you don't need to be assisted by teammates because you already have the ball, which makes it easy to score..
Otoh, if a ball-dominator joins the team (like Lebron), and forces you off-ball into a more spot-up role, this should decrease your stats, unless you're a generational offensive player that can average 30 off-the-ball, such as Curry, MJ, Malone or Jokic - they're better to play with because they don't force anyone off-ball.. That's why these guys are so valuable - they're skilled enough to fit 30 ppg into 4-5 minutes time of possession with a lot of assisted buckets, so teammates are involved and the ball moves even when they score 50.... The ball simply MOVES when there isn't a guy like Luka holding the ball for 9.0 minutes, lol.
The current Cavs, Celtics and Nuggets lack the dreaded Luka or Lebron-style ball-dominator that has high time of possession.. Mitchell and Garland are awesome.. I could see them winning the East easily, although I went with the Celtics.. The Celtics don't have the typical swagger of a team that repeats - the 92' Bulls, 90' Pistons, 01' Lakers all had banner years after they finally broke through.
For those that don’t want to look it up, in the 1992 Olympics:
Jordan 14.9 ppg .451 fg%
Barkley 18.0 ppg .711 fg%
And others
Malone 13.0 ppg .645 fg%
Chris Mullin 12.9 ppg .619 fg%
Like this isn’t all that close. Michael Jordan isn’t even the best player on his own team when the team consists of other elite scorers. He needs to be force-fed the ball (he has to be highly assisted, so he needs the right roster construction to make this happen) and he can only convert this to championships under the right coach and scheme (he only had championship level success with Phil Jackson and the triangle. He never even made the finals otherwise.)
I’m starting to realize that if Pippen was a bad offensive player, Jordan was not the best player on the ‘92 Olympic team, and Phil Jackson winning 11 titles (5 without Jordan), while Jordan won 0 titles without Phil, more or less proves Jordan was a system player in a way.
A great scorer yes, but he was only able to channel this into team success with the right coach and within the right system. Outside of that he was more or less a failure. There is no way he could succeed with a ba
He disparages LeBron for playing your turn/my turn with Wade or Luka where Jordan was always just MY TURN. Kobe was indeed his protege.
They're both taller (and as a result, better) Iversons. (The irony isn't lost on me that the 6'8 guy [or watev you are] doesn't appreciate the value length brings.)
For those that don’t want to look it up, in the 1992 Olympics:
Jordan 14.9 ppg .451 fg%
Barkley 18.0 ppg .711 fg%
And others
Malone 13.0 ppg .645 fg%
Chris Mullin 12.9 ppg .619 fg%
Like this isn’t all that close. Michael Jordan isn’t even the best player on his own team when the team consists of other elite scorers. He needs to be force-fed the ball (he has to be highly assisted, so he needs the right roster construction to make this happen) and he can only convert this to championships under the righ
In b4 everyone knew Jordan was the best so no one else even tried, including MJ.
You're misperceiving some things because it's easier to put up numbers with a low assisted rate because it means you have the ball all the time - you don't need to be assisted by teammates because you already have the ball, which makes it easy to score..
Otoh, if a ball-dominator joins the team (like Lebron), and forces you off-ball into a more spot-up role, this should decrease your stats, unless you're a generational offensive player that can average 30 off-the-ball, such as Curry, MJ, Malone o
But Jordan literally never had team level success at the professional level outside of Phil and the triangle. Not a single finals appearance.
Yeah he could score a lot of points but that was with him demanding the ball every play. Look at his points per game in the ‘92 Olympics. Or when he played at UNC.
Btw him being a dick that doesn't play well with others is exactly why Isiah froze him out of the AS game.
And then Jordan retaliated by saying he wouldn't represent his country if Isiah was there. He's a petulant SOB, isn't he? The anti-Steph really.
Not a good guy or teammate but a GREAT MAN like all the other GREAT MEN of history that were genocidal megalomaniacs.
So was Blake Griffin or Paul George, and they didn't need to be handed the goat dynasty and ready-made 3-peat system to garner extra spotlight or surprise factor, nor did they get to produce secondary stats of 22 ppg...
Again, outside the triangle that Pippen grew up in, he wasn't a 15 ppg scorer, and he obviously couldn't build a dynasty from 1988 like MJ did.... pippen was HANDED the dynasty and quickly destroyed by cratering to barely .500 in less than 18 months before MJ returned in 95'.. This confirmed that any team where Pippen is the best scorer has a serious lack of talent and will fall out of contention QUICKLY, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 1995
Keep avoiding the fact tho
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He disparages LeBron for playing your turn/my turn with Wade or Luka where Jordan was always just MY TURN. Kobe was indeed his protege.
They're both taller (and as a result, better) Iversons. (The irony isn't lost on me that the 6'8 guy [or watev you are] doesn't appreciate the value length brings.)
You know, you’re right. Jordan literally demanded the ball every play. The irony is that he had to be highly assisted — he had to have the right roster to feed him the ball. Otherwise he was outplayed by other players (see: Charles Barkley at the ‘92 Olympics).
In college when he wasn’t allowed to demand the ball every play and the offense was more deliberately balanced, his career scoring average was a pedestrian 17.7.
I’m starting to think if Michael played with an elite ball dominant player like an SGA, or Luka, or a prime LeBron, he wouldn’t know what to do. Jordan needs the ball fed to him to be effective, but those guys are really effective at both creating their own shot and distributing the ball equally to the other 4 players on the court. Jordan averages sub-18 ppg unless he can get the ball every time down the court via an assist.
Jordan was a role player. His role is just massively outsized to casuals, you can't build a team with nothing but scorers.
To FG only the scorers matter, but that's bc he has no idea what's going on or how it all works. He's the guy that just watches the football, never watching line play.
The NBA has moved on schematically but bro is stuck in the 90s, obviously.
But Jordan literally never had team level success at the professional level outside of Phil and the triangle. Not a single finals appearance.
Yeah he could score a lot of points but that was with him demanding the ball every play. Look at his points per game in the ‘92 Olympics. Or when he played at UNC.
1990 Playoffs
Bad Boys vs Playoff Opponents........ 11-1
Bad Boys vs Chicago Bulls'.................. 4-3**
1989 Playoffs
Bad Boys vs Playoff Opponents........ 11-0
Bad Boys vs Chicago Bulls'.................. 4-2*
** pippen missed closeout game 7 (16 on 42% overall)
* pippen missed the closeout game 6 (9.7 on 40% overall)
^^^ MJ built the Bulls to the 2nd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs and a team that played the Bad Boys as tough in 89' as the following year with Phil, so Phil inherited an impending champion and the steepest trajectory in the league (of all-time) as the GOAT entered his peak.
Again, MJ built the 2nd best team in the league with no help before Phil arrived and gave the Pistons their only fight of the playoffs, while Lebron was swept with 22 on 35% in 2007 and lost by record amount in 2014 and 2017... He also choked in the 08' 2nd Round by having a horrific series in a 7-game loss (26 on 35% and 5 TO's per game).
Ultimately, the triangle was invented in the 1940's with no success until Jordan or his clone won 11 rings with it, yet you're acting like the goat candidate needed the little-known triangle instead of the little-known triangle needing the goat... It's a complete misperception, just like the idea that 34/6/6 guy needs the 19/6/6 guy instead of the other way around.. You're just deciding that 2+2=5 because you want it to.
MJ didn't build anything. He played his game and the team was built around him (definition of a franchise player).
The triangle was needed to get the damn ball out of Jordan's hands. Then he'd get it back.
It's really very Steph-like in that way.
I read The Jordan Rules, did you?
Jordan was a role player. His role is just massively outsized to casuals, you can't build a team with nothing but scorers.
To FG only the scorers matter, but that's bc he has no idea what's going on or how it all works. He's the guy that just watches the football, never watching line play.
The NBA has moved on schematically but bro is stuck in the 90s, obviously.
Scoring help is the "star" category, so players that can carry the star category need less stars and allow GM's to find more defensive help.. This is why carrying the scoring load is a top 10 criteria that Lebron drastically fails in.. He never carried the scoring load on the championship level (never defeated max defensive attention) and he never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick..
Furthermore, you say that scoring isn't everything, but it's the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needed, except the GOAT.. Everyone in history needed teammates to lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, but MJ led all teammates in scoring for 10-30 ppg in every SERIES... So only Jordan didn't need the biggest need of everyone else (scoring)...
In addition to carrying the most important category that everyone else needed (scoring), Jordan led Pippen in assists for their Finals career, Playoff career, and regular season career, while getting equal or more DPOY votes for 7 of 9 seasons alongside Pippen... If elite APG was required, Jordan was the only option on the Bulls... And btw, Lebron needed more passing help because all his sidekicks averaged more APG than Pippen, such as Kyrie, Wade, Luka, Westbrook or Rondo.. So everyone averaged more assists than Pippen, that means MJ needed the least scoring AND passing help.
AI synopsis on the key area of the book re: Jordan and giving up the ball/utilizing the triangle.
Phil Jackson believed that trust and teamwork were the key to the Chicago Bulls' success in the 1990s, not just Michael Jordan's talent. Jackson emphasized that the team's ability to rely on each other was more important than any individual player.
Explanation
Jackson believed that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
He believed that unselfish players are the most valuable.
He believed that teams that are less talented but more selfless can be more successful.
Jackson believed that teams that trust each other and work together toward a common goal can achieve greatness.
Jackson helped Jordan shift from focusing solely on himself to becoming a team leader.
Jackson helped Jordan embrace the triangle offense, where the ball moves around the court and everyone is involved.
Jackson believed that Jordan's talent needed to be combined with the efforts of his supporting players.
Jackson's coaching style was characterized by connecting with his players, trusting them to figure out their roles, and helping them play for something bigger than themselves.
And then later on (not from The Jordan Rules):
Phil Jackson: "I never asked Michael to be a playmaker," (2001)
"I've always held the bar up very high for Kobe and he's not only reached that bar, but he's jumping over the top of it right now," Phil Jackson said. "It's the best that I've seen a player of mine play with an overall court game."
"I never asked Michael to be a playmaker," Jackson said. "That's the greatest player I ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game. Yet I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be a playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. Kobe has to set up the offense, read the defense, make others happy and he's doing a great job of it. Kobe has become the floor leader on a basketball team that was looking for that player who can not only be a scorer, but also be a playmaker who can consistently make big plays at critical times. It was very important for Kobe to step into that role he was envisioned at."
Kobe could've been a top 5 GOAT but he was obsessed with emulating Jordan and receiving all that glory (very-Roman like fwiw)
Scoring help is the "star" category, so players that can carry the star category need less stars and allow GM's to find more defensive help.. This is why carrying the scoring load is a top 10 criteria that Lebron drastically fails in.. He never carried the scoring load on the championship level (never defeated max defensive attention) and he never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick..
Furthermore, you say that scoring isn't
This **** doesn't work anymore. It's antiquated thinking.
The league is too deep and there's only one ball. Teams don't need endless scoring help.
The triangle was needed to get the damn ball out of Jordan's hands. Then he'd get it back.
It's really very Steph-like in that way.
I read The Jordan Rules, did you?
MJ's shot attempts and scoring rate increased in the triangle:
PER 100 POSSESSIONS
Regular Season
85-89' MJ........ 41.5 pts... 29.5 FGA
90-93' MJ........ 42.0 pts... 31.1 FGA
Playoffs
85-89' MJ........ 42.9 pts... 29.7 FGA
90-93' MJ........ 44.4 pts... 33.4 FGA
MJ shot more in the triangle and scored the same per game, or even higher when the Finals are included:
PER GAME
Regular Season
85-89' MJ........ 32.6 PPG and 23.3 FGA
90-93' MJ........ 31.9 PPG and 23.7 FGA
Playoffs
85-89' MJ........ 35.4 PPG and 24.5 FGA
90-93' MJ........ 34.3 PPG and 25.8 FGA
Finals
91-93' MJ........ 36.3 PPG and 27.4 FGA
Who was the Jordan Rules written by?.. Bill Russell??... Jerry West???... Pat Riley????.... Who???... Don't tell me it was written by some 5'5" journalism major and the original Jordan hater that had no confirmed sources for the book?
Why would you believe a media report instead of checking yourself or simply thinking "wait a minute.. Mj averaged 41 ppg on 30 shots to 3-peat, so how could the triangle reduce his scoring and shots?.. Are they lying??"... This is what a smart person thinks.
Again, it all goes back to assisted rate - the stat didn't exist back then... Phil assumed that 37 ppg meant that Jordan had the ball too much, so the ball movement of the triangle would reduce Jordan's scoring... But he didn't realize that the majority of Jordan's buckets were already assisted and fit the triangle's strategy, so Jordan was scoring champ 7 or 7 times despite Phil predicting that the triangle would end his scoring titles.. So Phil didn't really know what he was doing and was just lucky to land alongside the GOAT, who had already built the steepest trajecory, impending champion, and 2nd best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs... Btw, Jordan's turnaround jumper and assisted game was already perfected at North Carolina (here).
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Getting the ball out of Jordan's hands made it harder to double him when he got it back, the same as Steph.
So again, you're wrong and don't understand things.
Nice FAKE NEWS and the Press is the Enemy of the People take tho.
1990 Playoffs
Bad Boys vs Playoff Opponents........ 11-1
Bad Boys vs Chicago Bulls'.................. 4-3**
1989 Playoffs
Bad Boys vs Playoff Opponents........ 11-0
Bad Boys vs Chicago Bulls'.................. 4-2*
** pippen missed closeout game 7 (16 on 42% overall)
* pippen missed the closeout game 6 (9.7 on 40% overall)
^^^ MJ built the Bulls to the 2nd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs and a team that played the Bad Boys as tough in 89' as the following year with Phil, so Phi
The Bulls went 47-35 that year, finished 5th in their division, 6th in the Eastern conference, and then went 9-8 in the playoffs. They won two games vs the Pistons, but it’s important to not cherry pick and respect sample size. The other 97 games matter too, and 97 games is a greater sample size than 2.
Jordan never won a championship without Phil Jackson and the triangle. He never even made the finals without Phil Jackson and the triangle. His assisted rate was so high because he constantly demanded the ball. Outside of the Bulls, when he played with other elite offensive players, he was a sub-18 ppg scorer. This is all fact.
This **** doesn't work anymore. It's antiquated thinking.
The league is too deep and there's only one ball. Teams don't need endless scoring help.
Again, you're ignoring the facts so you can believe what you want, which is contrary to the facts
Lebron needed AD to lead the NBA in scoring for the 2020 Playoffs..
Lebron needed Kyrie to match him in scoring for the 2016 Playoffs.
Everyone in history needed a teammate to lead them in scoring for entire playoff runs except Jordan, who led all teammates by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES.
Everyone in history needed an elite scorer as a teammate that could "take over" except MJ.
Again, you're just believing what you want and ignoring reality - scoring is the biggest kind of help that everyone needs.. Look at Tatum last year - he needed a teammate to win FMVP... Everyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals, except Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg, so only Jordan breaks this mold of needing massive scoring help.
Phil assumed that 37 ppg meant that Jordan had the ball too much, so the ball movement of the triangle would reduce Jordan's scoring... But he didn't realize that the majority of Jordan's buckets were already assisted and fit the triangle's strategy, so Jordan was scoring champ 7 or 7 times despite Phil predicting that the triangle would end his scoring titles.. So Phil didn't really know what he was doing
Oh, okay.
It's just you and your precious Jordan against the world.
