LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Jordan being the best "point guard" in 1989 is more indicative of how the game has evolved in the last 35 years.
Back in 1989, a good prototypical point guard was Mark Jackson. Someone who dribbled the ball up the court, looked to find teammates, and didn't really try to score for himself. This was considered "good" back then. If you were a GOOD SCORER in 1989 you played shooting guard, point guard was for passers only.
Fast forward to 2024, when all players are more capable scorers and shooters,
Jokic, Kawhi, Giannis and Curry aren't point guards yet they have all the regular titles since 2017.
Non-ball-dominators will CONTINUE to have most of the titles, while Luka, SGA and Lebron mostly lose regardless of cast
Lmao.... Watch SGA get smashed in these playoffs via bad loss like Lebron in 08', 09' and 10' before he gave up on chemistry and started teaming up.. It's hard to develop the necessary chemistry as a dumb ball-dominator that imposes spot-up roles.. SGA will get his first lesson im these playoffs.
So anyway, your entire argument just went to pieces - ball-dominators today are losers just like they always have been with rare exception... Meanwhile, Jordan is immune because he could play 30/10/10 like the modern SGA or Lebron style, or he can play like Curry, Bird and Jokic (winning basketball).
That's why he's the GOAT by a wide margin... No one was considered his challenger until the fake debate with Lebron began and now guys like Kareem and Russell are brought up when they never were before.
It's worth noting, that if Durant doesn't create one if the most unbeatable teams ever by joining the Warriors, there's a very good chance LeBron has a 5th or an outside shot of even a 6th championship. LeBron was so good the 2nd and 3rd best players in the league joined forces to create easily the greatest superteam of this century.
Lebron would have zero rings if he doesn't make the "decision" to team-up with everyone.. No one else was teaming up from 2011-2016, so Lebron had a 6-year headstart in the colluding space.. Only Lebron's teams had 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), so they were preseason favorites for 6 straight years (11-16') until Durant finally responded.
That's the historical record... Lebron was a 1-trick pony like Iverson or Dwight until the;"decision" to use a cheat code.. He gave up on the chemistry learning curve and opted for talent-based winning (all-star team strategy).. So he never really learned how to win (chemistry) and only learned how to team-up (talent-based winning).
Shaq was 35 like Rodman and he would've been the best center Jordan ever had:
2010 Shaq................... 12/7 and 1.5 block
1989 Cartwright......... 12/7 and 0.5 block
So would Zydrunas, Mosgov, Mcgee or Tristan
And the 66-win Cavs also added a 3rd option that was a better scorer than Pippen (Jamison), so they had more scoring options and better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. (And they had better defenses back in 07' when Lebron wasn't all-defense)
Regular line only.
There are no examples of MJ shooting below today's standard when he had today's volumes, and this includes seasons or series from the regular line..
Regular line is all that matters because we're measuring how MJ would do in today's game, which uses the regular line - the "long two" distance is irrelevant and that's why you don't hear me reference Jordan's better volume or efficiency during the "shortened line" years. I've only ever referenced the his regular line percentages and always state this as well.
So again, Jordan had better offensive rebounds, BPG, SPG, turnover rate, FT %, jumpshooting, scoring, defense, clutch, off-ball, post, chemistry, teammate development.. that's basically everything..
(edit: there is one season or series from regular line where MJ shot below today's standard from three and it was the 90' ECF).
True shooting in the Finals
96' BULLS.................. 50.9
96' JORDAN............... 53.8
13' HEAT..................... 54.5
13' LEBRON............... 52.9
The Heat didn't win with Lebron on the floor in the 13' Finals (zero plus/minus and negative net rating for Lebron in the series)
Btw, Pippen had 42.9 TS in the 96' Finals and 46.9 in the 93' Finals (0% on threes)..
With Pippen at 15.7 on 34% for the 96' Finals, this was an example of Jordan beating a top 5 SRS opponent with weak scoring &: efficiency from a sidekick (carry-job vs top team), which Lebron has never done.. Furthermore, Jordan defeated max defensive attention (carried scoring load on championship level), which Lebron has also never accomplished.
It's worth noting, that if Durant doesn't create one if the most unbeatable teams ever by joining the Warriors, there's a very good chance LeBron has a 5th or an outside shot of even a 6th championship. LeBron was so good the 2nd and 3rd best players in the league joined forces to create easily the greatest superteam of this century.
its worth noting that Lebron had 0 titles and 1 finals appearance before stacking the deck in his favor by teaming up with 3 superstars who were all in their primes at a time when most other teams had one star (Dwight, Dirk, Melo) or two stars (Kobe/Pau, Nash/Amare) or 3 really old stars (50 win Celtics). It's very selective LebronFan memory to only remember 2016 offseason but completely forget about the 2010 "Decision" which is what started the arms race in the first place.
Only Lebron's teams had 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), so they were preseason favorites for 6 straight years (11-16') until Durant finally responded.
What were Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, and Ray Allen in 2008?
Shaq was 35 like Rodman and he would've been the best center Jordan ever had:
2010 Shaq................... 12/7 and 1.5 block
1989 Cartwright......... 12/7 and 0.5 block
Shaq was literally 38 in 2010, and had 1.2 blocks, not 1.5.
Can you go 1 post without blatant lies?
Also the idea that 38-year old Shaq was better than any center Jordan ever had is ludicrous, and typical TWOG propaganda.
In the 90s, teams played 2-center line-ups. A "power forward" back then was just a slightly shorter center, with the same skillset of being a big donkey who rebounds and can't dribble or shoot the ball. Superstars like Malone and Barkley were the exception, but the average starting power forward only had "center skills" by modern standards.
So 38-year old Shaq was nowhere near as good as Horace Grant in his prime.
Jokic, Kawhi, Giannis and Curry aren't point guards yet they have all the regular titles since 2017.
In what world is Curry not a PG/ball dominator? He is listed at PG and while his time of possession isn't as extreme as some others he was still, by a distance, the leading ball handler on the Warriors for every title.
The difference is that when Jordan had unwinnable situations he lost in the first round, thereby preserving his 6-0 finals record that all Jordan worshippers jerk off over.
When prime LeBron James is given a garbage roster he makes the conference finals or NBA finals and then is criticized by the same Jordan worshippers for not being able to win.
This isn't hard to understand, but losing in the finals is objectively better than losing in the first or second round.
Lebron's first playoff teams included a 2x all-star center, HOF coach, top defenses, and an all-defensive acquisition that averaged 22/5/5.
So Lebron's first playoff teams were high seeds and far superior to any of Jordan's casts in the 80's, which had zero players with all-star or all-defensive experience, and no coaching.
Both Jordan and Lebron started with lottery rosters, but Lebron had 3 years to develop a veteran, high seed before entering his first playoffs, while Jordan was thrown into the playoffs in year 1.. Despite the headstart, Lebron still had a 45-win team in Year 5 (2008) until he received more all-star help in 2009.
Furthermore, Antawn Jamison was 3rd option but is a better scorer than Pippen, so the 2010 Cavs had more scoring options and better team defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. And they had better defenses back in 2007 when Lebron wasn't all-defense.
Ultimately, in 1989, Jordan had the worst cast in the league, yet his low seed took the Pistons to 6 games, while Lebron's high seed was swept by the Spurs in 2007.. Before facing the Pistons, Jordan had massive upset wins against Ewing's Knicks and #1 SRS Cavs - it's significant that Pippen averaged 15 on 40% against the Cavs because Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs vs top teams in 2 decades).
In what world is Curry not a PG/ball dominator? He is listed at PG and while his time of possession isn't as extreme as some others he was still, by a distance, the leading ball handler on the Warriors for every title.
Curry is literally the greatest off-ball player to ever play.. The greatest jumpshooter of all-time... And yes, his time of possessions is extremely low for someone that brings the ball up..
his ability to drop 40 while the ball moves is why he can effectively carry the scoring load, aka he has sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume to beat top teams and this carry-job ability against top teams allows him to win with less scoring help like Klay instead of Wade or AD... otoh, lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume, so he loses at 38 ppg as historic favorite to Dwight..
Meanwhile, Jordan is similar to Curry in that he allows the ball to move, so he can effectively carry the scoring load against top teams and therefore win with weak scoring help like Pippen.. Essentially, ball-dominators aren't as good at carrying the scoring load, so they need more help.
Also the idea that 38-year old Shaq was better than any center Jordan ever had is ludicrous, and typical TWOG propaganda.
In the 90s, teams played 2-center line-ups. A "power forward" back then was just a slightly shorter center, with the same skillset of being a big donkey who rebounds and can't dribble or shoot the ball. Superstars like Malone and Barkley were the exception, but the average starting power forward only had "center skills" by modern standards.
So 38-year old Shaq was nowhere near
2010 Shaq was equal to prime Horace and just a little below PEAK horace of (94' and 95') - so horace isn't a bad comparison to show Shaq's caliber at that time
But regardless, we know that Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen and he played 3rd option for the Cavs, so the Cavs had more scoring options and better team defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. And the Cavs had better defenses back in 07' before Lebron was all-defense - they simply had far more good defenders like Zydrunas, Varejao, Delonte, Snow, Hughes, Ben Wallace and much more... plus Mike Brown is a reputed defensive coach, while the 80's Bulls had no coaching or players with any accolade whatsoever.
They were washed up in 2010 and only won 50 games..... -500 underdogs to the Cavs.
KG had catastrophic injury in 2009 and was literally horace grant when he returned (14/7)
History shows that MJ beat the Isiah, Dumars and Rodman when they were 27-29 years old, while Lebron didn't beat the KG/Pierce/Allen until they were 32-34....... and he needed Wade to be 1st option during that series and playoff run (2011)... that's like Bird coming along and leading the Bulls in scoring when they finally beat the Pistons in 91'... lol
There's no comparison - Bron is just a fraud
Moved the goalposts again.
You claimed LeBron was the first and only player to form a team with "3 franchise players" when the Celtics literally had that exact criteria 3 years before "the decision."
Kevin Garnett is historically underrated because he spent his prime in dogshit Minnesota and didn't win a title with Sam Cassell as his second best player. LeBron didn't want to waste his prime like that too.
You act like Pippen could build a 50-win team from scratch - what would the bulls become if MJ didn't exist in 1989? How many titles?..
So cut the crap - MJ toiled away and built the team, while Pippen was handed the most well-oiled machine ever and it died in less than 18 months - the Bulls were borderline .500 in 95' before MJ returned..
Most importantly, opponents didn't circle their calendar or plan what they would tell grandkids - no one gave a sh** about playing the 94' Bulls - seeing the
Phil Jackson built the team, not MJ.
They were washed up in 2010 and only won 50 games..... -500 underdogs to the Cavs.
KG had catastrophic injury in 2009 and was literally horace grant when he returned (14/7)
History shows that MJ beat the Isiah, Dumars and Rodman when they were 27-29 years old, while Lebron didn't beat the KG/Pierce/Allen until they were 32-34....... and he needed Wade to be 1st option during that series and playoff run (2011)... that's like Bird coming along and leading the Bulls in scoring when they finally beat
“Washed” = 50 wins and taking Jackson / Kobe / Gasol et al to 7 in the Finals. Your posts are so weird and wrong.
Neither PJ nor MJ built the bulls.
Jerry Krause built the bulls. Plain simple.
Jordan wanted to draft Joe Wolf instead of either Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. Jordan also didn't like Toni Kukoc either because he hated Jerry Krause.
Proof here: https://www.sportscasting.com/michael-jo...
Jerry Krause is probably one of the most important people to Jordan's success. If Jordan was given the reigns it would be a lot like the Wizards roster or anyone of his Charlotte rosters he put together.
You musn't fall into the trap of thinking that a future GOAT has to be better than LeBron James at everything, including playmaking. LeBron isn't better than Jordan at everything either.
There can be different paths to greatness. This is the trap Jordan worshippers fall into. They see Jordan as the platonic ideal of basketball GOATness, and won't admit that anyone will ever be better unless they go 7-0 in the finals while winning the scoring title every year. To them, doing anything differently i
I'm on record here saying Jokic has plenty of GOAT equity. Jokic is also inferior than LeBron at a few things but superior at others.
I also find it hard for a non elite scorer + passer (must be elite at both) to reach GOAT levels.
Wemby does have top 10 talent though and a higher ceiling than Giannis.
But there's levels to greatness and only Jordan achieved the highest level that includes the longest stretch of goat winning and goat individual dominance simultaneously.. It's the goat standard.. He also had the least help of anyone that reached an "unbeatable" or "dynasty" level of winning.
Otoh, Lebron hasn't reached goat winning, while the stats and accolades show that he didn't reach Jordan's dominance either, on either end of the floor, while also needing a lot more help.
This is a good summary but I cant help but lol at your takes fallguy, with you having not watched the nba for the last 15 years or so [emoji1787]
