Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
But that's what I was talking about the other day, in Vic-light deflection debate style.
That's the part of the post you deflect to? Lol who knows how long the state would last. At the rate that states in the region can fail, I've got no idea.
The point of the post is that anyone be anti-homeland while pushing for one where the Palestinians can do exactly what everyone believes they deserve to do: govern themselves, self-determine themselves, protect themselves (in a state so devoid of diversity your head will spin). All we've ever wanted for the Jews, since the Shoah, is the same self-determination. The one everyone else regionally is afforded.
Protestors would be THRILLED by an eternal homeland for the Palestinians. We'd never hear the end of praise for it. This whole "don't agree with homeland" things is a joke itt.
My gripe with "homelands" isn't that they should/should not exist, but that people infer a homeland from where ancestors hundreds or thousands of years ago lived, which is complete nonsense.
Come on man, if you don't know that "eternal" is hyperbole in here yet...
The entire concept of all of this is hyperbolic nonsense.
A Palestinian homeland would be THE ethnostate by definition. And we'd somehow find a way to say "this is totally fine"
If by "we" you mean you and me then no. I don't think ethnostates are fine whether they are Palestinian or not. The big problem here and now though is all the killing and destruction.
Dumb criticism though. It was something interesting and maybe germane. I'll answer whatever question you want about homelands or ethnostates Palestinian or not.
But, do you think Jewish rights to Israel are literally God-given?
Born and ~3 years there, most of rest of my life here.If people can have several homelands it makes a mockery of some people's claims for Israel as their homeland though. "Preferred home" is more accurate."Homeland" if it exists is a fluid and mutable concept eg if some unthinkably bad thing happened in Ireland that meant an evacuation I hope you'd soon regard wherever you sett
I'd attempt to make a new home in whatever country was gracious enough to accept me but my heart would always be in Ireland and I'd always regard it as my home even if in a new country. My partner is Italian and despite living in Ireland the past 25 years she still regards Italy as her home and would return in a heartbeat if we ever won the lotto or employment was easier there. If she had some family emergency where she had to return, I'd make a life there but again would always regard Ireland as my home.
I gotta agree with BGP, you're very lucky and privileged to have such a mindset re borders. Maybe Ukrainians who don't have such a luxury might regard borders as important and a country isn't defined only by borders anyway, there's also a culture and way of life and such things personify the concept of home.
If it's such a fluid and mutable concept then you shouldn't have an issue with European or American Jews regarding Israel as their home.
Dumb criticism though. It was something interesting and maybe germane. I'll answer whatever question you want about homelands or ethnostates Palestinian or not.
But, do you think Jewish rights to Israel are literally God-given?
Not one person in this thread has made that argument but you keep up the gotcha journalism
Dumb criticism though. It was something interesting and maybe germane. I'll answer whatever question you want about homelands or ethnostates Palestinian or not.
But, do you think Jewish rights to Israel are literally God-given?
Irrelevant. Israel has as much a right to exist as Ireland, the USA, Kosovo and any other country that came into being through violent insurrection.
Not one person in this thread has made that argument but you keep up the gotcha journalism
What's the gotcha? Do you think it's God's will? The argument anything from 1000+ years ago is very silly. Can you imagine genetically matching people of the world to regions 1500 years ago? It would be insanity. So, is that really just an attempt to disguise what it really a religious thing? I've lived among very religious Jews and I know inside those groups it's not a secondary reason. The only reason that Israel belongs to Jews for them is that it's God's will.
I'd attempt to make a new home in whatever country was gracious enough to accept me but my heart would always be in Ireland and I'd always regard it as my home even if in a new country. My partner is Italian and despite living in Ireland the past 25 years she still regards Italy as her home and would return in a heartbeat if we ever won the lotto or employment was easier there.
The issue is the displacement and murder of civilians
Why didn’t you mention that
Irrelevant. Israel has as much a right to exist as Ireland, the USA, Kosovo and any other country that came into being through violent insurrection.
Ok, so no right.
Countries all suck. The question is how free and safe people are.
Who says it's an ethnostate? You stated it is due to Jews having special status as citizens. By that rationale, America is an ethnostate due to minorities having "special" (if you will) status in employment via affirmative action. Or you could simply recognise the historical context for both Israel & affirmative action in America.
It has a right to exist as a Jewish state the way its neighbours have the right to exist as Islamic states.
No idea what you even mean by this. Israel have as much a right to exist as any othet country.
Countries all suck
Sez you. Jasus you're cynical.
The question is how free and safe people are.
Israelis are free and Israeli Arabs are freer than many of their Arab counterparts, such as gay Iraqis by way of a for instance. Safety's all relative innit?
It has a right to exist as a Jewish state the way its neighbours have the right to exist as Islamic states.
Neighbors?
Lebanon is not an Islamic State. Syria is a dictatorship. Do dictatorships have rights? Should they exist? Jordan is a monarchy. Again, absurd to talk about Jordan's rights. Egypt isn't really a democracy now either.
I think people have rights, not states, but certainly undemocratic states don't have rights imo. So no, I don't think they have a right to be ethnostates.
Huge lol at your affirmative action take.
If you don't like Israel occupying the WB, you think it's fine if Iraq outlaws homosexuality is world class stupid.
Yet nobody is going to protest iraq having
Mandotory 15 year sentence for being gay,or jordan beimg a monarchy, or Egypt being a monarchy, or Syria being a dictatorship
We are only going to decide that after 80 years the only jewish state in the world should not be allowed to exist. But we aren't antisemitic or anything, we should just be held to a higher standard and we should ask irrelevant questions about God given even though nobody is making that argument because lol jews Emden if we are Jews
You're a peach
Neighbors?
Lebanon is not an Islamic State. Syria is a dictatorship. Do dictatorships have rights? Should they exist?
Jordan is a monarchy. Again, absurd to talk about Jordan's rights. Egypt isn't really a democracy now either.
You're equating a country's right to exist with its system of governance. Uk's a monarchy as is Spain, is it absurd to talk about their rights? Up to the Syrian people to overthrow a dictatorship and Jordanians to abolish their monarchy, assuming the latter actually wish to do so.
I think people have rights, not states, but certainly undemocratic states don't have rights imo. So no, I don't think they have a right to be ethnostates.
Countries have a right to exist, regardless of your fringe far left ideas.
Huge lol at your affirmative action take.
Your argument mate, you're the one banging on about "special status", not me. You appear to be recognising the historical context for AA but not for Israel and your inconsistency isn't my problem, sorry.
I'd attempt to make a new home in whatever country was gracious enough to accept me but my heart would always be in Ireland and I'd always regard it as my home even if in a new country. My partner is Italian and despite living in Ireland the past 25 years she still regards Italy as her home and would return in a heartbeat if we ever won the lotto or employment was easier there.
I have no issue with people needing to feel an area is their home - it's very natural to a lot of people. I have a disagreement with the idea of a homeland based on where one's ancestors lived hundreds or thousands of years ago, and especially when people assume that gives them rights to that area over and above the people already there.
So yes, Europeans or Americans regarding Israel as their and only their home can **** right off.
Outrageous sense of entitlement they have imo, not dissimilar to Europeans who made South Africa their "home" at the expense of the people already there.
I have no issue with people needing to feel an area is their home - it's very natural to a lot of people. I have a disagreement with the idea of a homeland based on where one's ancestors lived hundreds or thousands of years ago, and especially when people assume that gives them rights to that area over and above the people already there.So yes, Europeans or Americans regarding
Why shouldn't there be a Jewish homeland considering they fought for it and won it?
My gripe with "homelands" isn't that they should/should not exist, but that people infer a homeland from where ancestors hundreds or thousands of years ago lived, which is complete nonsense.
And more importantly, homelands are fictional. It's not like iron age Israel was some magic place where Jewish people lived in harmony. We know of various cults like the Essenes who were "Jewish" and kicked out and for forced to flee their homeland as Jews by more powerful Jewish cults because of whatever Iron Age cult nonsense disagreements nobody today really cares about. It's not like 2nd temple period Jews would accept a modern Jewish person because that land is some sort of homeland for any Jewish person. That's a modern fiction, not unique to Judaism but universal to anybody claiming some kind of ancestral homeland.
Outrageous sense of entitlement they have imo, not dissimilar to Europeans who made South Africa their "home" at the expense of the people already there.
By that rationale any ex pat or migrant has an outrageous sense of entitlement. You're being inconsistent. You want to abolish borders which implies anyone can go to live anywhere yet when it's for Jews it's suddenly wrong?
Whaddya mean people already there? There were always Jews in Palestine long before Israel, again with the inconsistency.
