LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Yeah, this is a lie. Please quote the post anywhere in this monstrosity of a thread (or anywhere on the internet) where someone has stated “rangz, nothing else matters”. This is quite specific, so if you are not lying it should be very easy to prove it by finding the quote.

FYI, a strawman is when you attribute a false argument to the opposition, making the argument trivial to refute. Watch this:

The claim is that what matters is how much an individual contributes to championship equity over time at their peak or through their prime years (when they’re at their best). Which would be the combination of individual stats, team success (as measured by championships won; or perhaps win % if it’s close), and longevity as a tiebreaker if their stats are ~equal and their team success is ~equal.

Can you tell if there is a difference between that statement vs. “rangz, nothing else matters”? If you aren’t able to tell the difference, you can be honest. It’s ok. There’s no need to straw man and lie just because you’re confused.

And yeah Bill Russell is probably really underrated by the cabal of nephews. 11 rings is really impressive even though he doesn’t have the offensive stats. A ton of championships but not nearly the equity (per championship) that someone like Jordan or LeBron has. He is still way up there.

Pippen and Klay aren't viable scorers and were never viewed as foundations of an offense - they're clearly secondary scorers and "system" players, while Bosh and Love achieved gaudy scoring numbers without a coddling system and were always viewed as being top guys for their teams.. They were drafted to carry bad teams, while Klay and Pippen were drafted to BE carried and achieve secondary, non-elite stats.

For example, if Draymond was the best scorer on the team, the team would win 0 games... So 40 games in the West with no help for baby Love is pretty good.. He was the Luka of his time and viewed as a completely dominant player with historic stats.. Klay wasn't this type of 1st option-type player - he was clearly a 2nd option and secondary scorer.

Meanwhile, Bosh didn't need to win a title to get All-NBA like Pippen, Klay, Dumars, Parker and Pau did.. Again, he was viewed as a top guy because of his scoring ability, while Pippen was always viewed as an athlete, dunker and secondary scorer.. He was actually only a 2nd option alongside MJ and otherwise was 3rd to 6th option on Houston or Portland.

Btw, Bosh and Love were Lebron's 3rd options, so it's kind of a moot point... the Bulls had 1 franchise player, while Lebron's needed teams with 2 or 3 franchise players on the team, yet still mostly lost with each iteration or cast... Jordan mostly won with 1 other star that was a secondary producer and no-franchise player, while Lebron mostly lost with franchise players as teammates and multiple star teammates

But who are you arguing against? Nobody is saying Pippen is better than Jokic MJ Curry so wtf are you rambling about?

You seem really irked I won’t play your game, but that’s okay.

Jokic definitely isn’t the GOAT yet, but he may be in time.

Pippen is just a dunker! We have a new WOAT TWOG take. He comes up with a new one every week! Brought to you by the creator of "LeBron is Karl Malone with a handle" and "inefficient chucking is actually good!" What will he think of next? Stay tuned!

Since MJ became goat when he achieved a substantive body of work that was superior to anything Bird and Magic achieved (3-peat), Jokic can qualify for GOAT if he achieves a 4-peat

that's one way he could achieve goat without winning as many rings - just have a superior peak (4-peat and goat stats > 3-peat and goat stats)

You probably think Pippen was a "passer" but every notable 1st option in the 90's had all-time floor generals at sidekick that averaged 10 assists like Stockton, Payton, KJ or Hardaway, while Jordan was stuck with Pippen's 5 assists - so Pippen was "just a dunker" when you consider that his passing was below-par relative to his sidekick peers, along with his peak scoring ability and efficiency (system player that couldn't shoot).

Again, when you guys reference 55 wins in 1994, it implies that Pippen was a 55-win player when he was really just handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever.. He wasn't a 55-win franchise player that can build a 55-win team from scratch, since that requires elite scoring ability to carry bad teams through chemistry-development periods.. Barkley, Malone, Embiid - whoever - these franchise guys put up gaudy numbers to keep bad teams in the season or series and get better each year.... Pippen or Klay can't do that - the Bulls or Warriors would be nothing in 1989 or 2013 with Pippen or Klay leading the way and no Curry or Jordan.

In the 97' Finals, Pippen averaged 3 assists and 4 turnovers, while getting 4 points in clutch-time (last 5 within 5) - he was mostly a dunker/finisher in that series and he was even worse in the 98' or 96' Finals.. 15.7 on 34% is "just a dunker"... He shot 0% on threes in the 93' Finals and 59% from the line... Show me where Lebron won with literally ZERO SPACING from his sidekick... Again, Pippen was just a dunker.

Listen to the commentators say how Anthony Mason was locking up Pippen in the 94' ECSF and that's why Phil went with Kukoc (here)... And there's tons of video of the 92' ECSF where X-Man was dominating Pippen and people were actually noticing - normally, pippen flew under the radar and no one noticed this pedestrian production

lol ….
U don’t seem to listen much of the arguments for MJ being goat ….

I'm not reading that wall of text.

Derrick Jones Jr. is someone who can be described as "just a dunker."

Pippen = Derrick Jones Jr.?

Yes or no?

You won't look at the context - if rookie Derrick Jones landed alongside the DPOY, he might become a great defender, which would double his minutes and easy-finish opportunities to Pippen's level.. Both got mostly flow points and easy finishes but Pippen got twice the minutes by being a great defender.. We agree that Pippen was a better playmaker but far below his era's standard for sidekicks, so it's irrelevant - the reality is that the Bulls could've upgraded their team by upgrading Paxson slightly to a more playmaking PG like Kenny Smith and then replacing Pippen with almost anyone - Horry would be perfect.. (kenny smith averaged 13 and 6 APG for his career with 40% threes on 2.3 attempts - his peak was 18 and 7 with 17th in MVP voting)..

Heck, Vernon Maxwell would've also been a great upgrade from Paxson and fit amazingly with fellow competitor MJ... MJ/Maxwell or MJ/Smith + Horry/Horace in the frontcourt would yield the same results as Paxson/MJ and Pippen/Horace... There's many ways to skin a cat when you're only replacing a pippen-level producer

Btw, we already know that Horry was that alpha clutch spacer that commanded respect, which is all the opposite of Pippen.. He said he would "lock up sorry ass Pippen" and Pippen didn't fair well against alphas like X-Man or Horry or Juwan Howard.. Pippen is also 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals, so Horry achieved a superior combination of stats in the Finals than Pippen ever did - i.e. it's a low bar to find someone to exceed Pippen's peak performance
.

So Jordan would have turned Derrick Jones Jr. into Scottie Pippen?

What evidence do you have for that besides, you pulled it out of your ass?

No you're just making up bullshit. The truth lies somewhere in the middle of the .500 season a 55 win season. You try and act like that was a lottery team.

Then you try and act like guys who were on an actual lottery team when LeBron left are better than Pippen. It's utterly comical.

People saying Pippen is better than every piece of garbage LeBron played with in Cleveland doesn't mean they're saying he's better than Jokic Curry or MJ. It means he's better than Jamison Hughes 38 year old Shaq or whatever other slap dick you can come up with from that joke of a roster.

Now while 38 year old Shaq was washed prime Shaq was better than Pippen and your (lmao) #2 Kobe on those 3 Lakers championship teams. And yet your puzzled when you get laughed at for pretending Kobe built something there and not knowing why LeBron couldn't when he was missing the prime Shaq gifted to Kobe.

What's your next hot take Mo Williams is better than Luka?

You also place a lot of stock in meaningless bullshit former players say about themselves. It's quite strange.

I've already said I think MJ is better but the reasonable arguments get drowned out in the sea of nonsense people who hate LeBron spew.

Saying something is true because of Y reasons when all of those reasons are false and convoluted bullshit doesn't make those reasons factual even when the initial point is actually true.

"Rangz " is something the MJ camp likes to say which actually is true. There is no denying it is 6-4. But" Rangz" goes out the window the second Russel is mentioned. All of the sudden extenuating circumstances matter when before they didn't.

It has calmed down somewhat now that it's 6-4,but when it was 6-0 it's all you heard. These people wanted to give MJ Pippen, give Kobe Shaq, give Bird and Magic fellow hall of famers, and give Lebron a bag of dicks and say "rangz".
If you pointed out all of those guys had tons of help it was that's an excuse blah blah blah. Then you mention Russel and all of the sudden it magically wasn't a simple ring counting contest. This **** has gone on for 15 years.

Fortunately for the team LeBron guys after they lose to Denver it will be a better season than losing in the finals. I think that's how the "logic" works.

Smart move. Matt R. has LeBron-like longevity itt of horrendous arguments, false dichotomies, strawmen, projection, etc. he’s still at it after all these years, kudos to him for the commitment to the bit.

Good summary of how Lebron haters have shifted their arguments over the years as Lebron has obsoleted them with his longevity.

People will actually count it as a massive negative that he is going to lose at nearly age 40 in the first round to the defending champs, -400 favorites and a guy with 3 MVPs in 4 years in his prime surrounded by an incredible cast with great chemistry. For years MJ fans didn’t care about losing in the first round but now that Lebron is still playing instead of retiring it matters of course.

It matters because it was tiresome to hear mj without even an All-Star losing in first round vs nba champion was a stain on mj…
Before we didn’t even care lebron didn’t even made the playoffs instead of losing in the first round…

We actually focus only on what was accomplished, it’s the lebron side, trying to find excuses for the lack of accomplishment, started narrative of first round loss on mj , etc

Get rid of all the loses for lebron and it still 4-0 in 21 .
Many players have more rings

How many players have 4 rings as the best player on the team for all 4? Not too many

fallguy - You can think MJ is GOAT and still be impressed with how well the Bulls did without him.

Many players have more rings than MJ too. Almost like context matters.

The evidence is the historical record - Pippen was a scrawny, 23-year old rookie that averaged 8 ppg - he WAS derrick jones.

I'm not saying that Jordan can develop any good athlete but he can develop a lot of them because he's the goat model and example to follow for a scorer or 2-way wing player and he also takes all the big shots - so there's no pressure for the sidekick except they have to give max effort at all times.. But with the spotlight and 4th quarter load on MJ's shoulders, the sidekick flies under the radar and are free to develop unfettered by distractions or media scrutiny.. It's an optimal environment for young players, which is why Jordan has such a great record of teammate growth on his watch.. Of course Jordan's game didn't impose spot-up roles (he wasn't ball-dominant), which further expands capacity for growth.

It took some time with Pippen - he wasn't remotely reliable until he was the same age that Jones was this season - 26 years old (91').

But again, Jordan lost in the 89' ECF because Pippen missed games 5 and 6: effectively, and then lost in 1990 because Pippen missed Game 7.. If Jordan gets 15 points from Pippen in these games, he easily beats the Bad Boys both years - and the point is that when Jordan finally started winning from 91-98', that's all he was getting from Pippen - about 16-20 PPG on bad efficiency in the playoffs... So Jordan never had good supporting talent - Bird/Magic needed super-teams to barely hang with the Bad Boys, while Jordan needed 1 other all-star to make them a piece of cake.
.

There's nothing to be impressed about - a lot of weak rosters and weak teams win 55 in one-off fashion - there are a million reasons why a team might achieve a record that is above expectation in a one-off scenario.. Having a 3-peat system doesn't hurt along with massive chip on shoulder and asleep opponents.

The playoffs and following season confirmed the one-off regular season.

The Bulls were barely beating teams that were asleep and no one was tuning in either - opponents didn't care about playing the Bulls and neither did fans.. The Bulls were completely under the radar.. I think it's a little comparable to Ngannou's fight with Fury - zero expectations and an asleep opponent, so a complete beginner did decently against a goat... But once the cat was out of the bag, we saw what happened in the 2nd fight - it was lights out just like the 94' Playoffs and then begging MJ to return during the 95' season.

Keep in mind that the Bulls were nearly down 0-3 before the Kukoc miracle made the series weird and a dogfight.. Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of that series and was clearly outplayed by Ewing... He completely embarrassed himself with numerous historic chokes in that series like the "sit-out" game and the beginner foul on Hubert Davis (never foul a jumpshooter)... These unbelievable chokes are like cries out "I'm lost.. I need MJ!!!"

Again, if MJ never returns in 95', the Bulls were on massive downward trajectory and likely lottery that year or the following year in 96'.. I don't see how Pippen handles the pressure and holds on to a playoff spot down the stretch in 95.. But regardless, the downward trajectory from 94' indicates they would be lottery in 95' or 96', which contrasts with being the goat team with MJ.. The 34-31 record before MJ returned shows an extremely speedy drop-off from being the goat modern dynasty.

And again, 55 wins never meant that Pippen is a 55-win franchise player - he was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and unique scenario - otherwise he could never build a contender from scratch like true franchise players.. Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty like we saw in 95'.

You need to stop saying a team with a 34 - 31 record was going to end up in the lottery for that season. You are weakening the whole bit by repeating easily disproven statements over and over. The whole effort would be much improved by dropping that stuff, it's just so obviously silly.

Are you purposefully misstating what I wrote to avoid addressing the point?

I never said the Bulls were going to miss the playoffs in 95' - I said the downward trajectory they were on since 94' indicated they would likely miss the 95' or 96' Playoffs... So i acknowledged that they might make the 95' Playoffs, but it was your typical tight race for the bottom seeds and i don't see how Pippen hangs on to a bottom seed with the pressure on for the last 15 games - I think it's VERY likely the team chokes when the pressure is on and everyone is playing hard down the stretch, just like they did in the 94' Playoffs.. The triangle was very solvable without MJ or his clone, and opponents had already solved it that season.

So again, the downward trajectory from 94' indicates they would be lottery in 95' or 96', which contrasts with being the goat team with MJ.. The team's 34-31 record before MJ returned shows an extremely speedy drop-off for the goat modern dynasty.. No team reaches this caliber so it's impossible to compare to the drop-off of far lesser teams and scenarios..

It's funny because Lebron's teams are one-offs that otherwise win 53 games and lose by record amount or choke (17', 14', 11).. so they stink WITH him against regular comp but he simply diluted an already weak East via "decision".. That's when he put the top 3 players im the conference on 1 team.

And again, 55 wins never meant that Pippen is a 55-win franchise player - he was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and unique one-off scenario (no one looking) - otherwise he could never build a 50-win team from scratch like true franchise players (i.e. Dominique, Ewing, Barkley, etc).... Any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty like we saw in 95'.

Wait until Jokic gets his team to 3-peat achievement and caliber - they'll be the most well-oiled machine ever and could probably have a one-off decent record without him but would probably crater pretty quickly too.. This assumes Jokic is on that top level and we'll find out.