LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Ant needs to keep both hands on the ball until the last instant on layups, so he can't have the sweeping one-arm extension layups that wrap around 7-footers the way Dr. J or MJ used to finish on guys... That's a specific shot type that Ant can't do, so all his hang-time shots are the same kind - both hands on the ball until the last instant and then a very short jumper type shot from 2 feet away - he actually doesn't remove his hand from the ball on hang-time shots.. So his shot-making diversity is a JOKE compared to mj.. Of course, we already know that his efficiency on paint shots outside of the restricted area is bad because it requires touch and shot-making diversity that he doesn't have.. And he's bad at mid-range, ball movement, chemistry, passing, rebounding and an inferior FT shooter.. Basically everything.. MJ even shoots better from three at today's volumes (3+ attempts).
After 2 games, everyone said "the Wolves are too much for the Nuggets".. but now it's "wolves need more help".,.. smh.... this is the type of analysis that happens when chemistry is left out of the analysis.. ultimately, the modern American player simply lacks great fundamentals and chemistry to elevate teammates like Jokic, MJ and Curry did.. everyone like lebron, luka and ant are just "down-hill" players that lack the offensive sophistication, expert jumpshoting skill and great instinct to score in more diverse ways and play off teammates better, so they can't have the advanced team offenses and chemistry that Jokic, MJ and Curry had.
the "down-hill" skillset is extremely predictable - it lacks diversity and prevents a team from offensive sophistication... it's also run in the halfcourt, which does require set-up time.. we're talking about high screen rolls or iso's where Ant has the ball 25 feet from the hoop - he's just holding or dribbling the ball before he going downhill.
it's a narrow brand of ball that gets destroyed - Ant and SGA are finding that out - neither will win another game in these playoffs.. This is similar to Lebron losing the last 3 games to lose nearly every series that he lost - teams figure out his weak brand and can't lose thereafter...
Meanwhile, in contrast to Ant and SGA, Luka is currently finding success by not dominating the ball as much because he's hurt or something
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Casts need great chemistry to play great but modern guys have high set-up times
Ant, Luka, Lebron, Giannis, Embiid - all these perennial losers have high set-up times at the expense of teammates and chemistry.
Luka had 14 playoff wins in his first 3 seasons.
MJ had 1.
Guess MJ is a perennial loser.
That's sad :(
Ant, Lebron, Luka, Embiid, Giannis - all these perennial losers - they all have ball-dominance and high set-up times, which produces weaker chemistry that hurts teammate performance .. None of them have low hold-time like the winners do (Curry, Jokic, MJ), so their casts don't perform as well.. It's ball101 that casts need great chemistry to play great, but unfortunately, guys that need a lot of set-up time prevent this chemistry, so they can't elevate teammates..
Ant, Embiid and Giannis all have much, much lower ball dominance (time of possession) than Curry and similar or lower than Jokic - even Lebron's TOP has often been only a little higher than Curry's over their careers; Luka is the only one who consistently has much higher TOP. These stats aren't available for MJ's career but it would amaze me if the numbers for him weren't in the same ballpark as Curry's and hence higher than at least 3 of the "perennial losers" you mentioned. This whole ball dominance concept as a predictor of good team performance is just complete nonsense.
Luka had 14 playoff wins in his first 3 seasons.
MJ had 1.
Guess MJ is a perennial loser.
That's sad :(
Luka entered the league with great teammates like Porzingas and Brunson, but he couldn't win, while MJ was unbeatable with one other star.
Compare their records with a decent teammate and we see that only MJ was unbeatable, while everyone else needed many star teammates a yet still mostly loses.
Luka lost with Brunson and it was a bad fit - let that sink in... MJ would've fit like a glove and made the best backcourt ever.
Ant, Embiid and Giannis all have much, much lower ball dominance (time of possession) than Curry and similar or lower than Jokic - even Lebron's TOP has often been only a little higher than Curry's over their careers; Luka is the only one who consistently has much higher TOP. These stats aren't available for MJ's career but it would amaze me if the numbers for him weren't in the same ballpark as Curry's and hence higher than at least 3 of the "perennial losers" you mentioned. This whole ball dom
In the playoffs, Ant's time of possession (hold-time) is 7.6 minutes, so that's higher than SGA (7.4), and obviously Jokic (5.6).. stats here.
So you're dead wrong.
Did you even look up the numbers?
A point guard hold-time for Ant creates the same 2 point guard lineups that Lebron has (2 guys on the floor with a point guard hold-time, aka Ant & Conley), which gives teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in normal 1 point guard lineups... Lower teammate assists equals low TEAM assists and a brand that struggles against Finals teams..
The common thread in Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years is massive deficits im team assists.. Similarly, the Wolves are getting out-assisted by the Nugs.
Look Ant's buckets - they're all downhill to get a three or layup - he's just another simpleton down-hill player - it's a style that accumulates personal stats but can't develop great chemistry that elevates teammates.. Casts play great when the chemistry is great, but Ant's skillset prevents this chemistry, so he'll need to team-up like Lebron to win, and yet his brand will still mostly lose.. That's the historical record of down-hill players - they're perennial losers even with other stars and they get beat by teams with better chemistry.
Anthony Edwards and SGA clearly need another star teammate each - who would be best for them?
Should we team them up with Luka? How about teaming them up with Giannis? Would that be enough help?
All these simpleton, downhill players don't know how to play off teammates and foster bad chemistry, so their casts don't play great - they don't know how to elevate teammates and chemistry, so they need more help - they're bad at chemistry, so they must become talent-based winners (colluders, all-star team strategy).
Today's players lack fundamentals such as playing off teammates (off-ball) and 5-man basketball, which opens up the strategic capacity and chemistry of the team
I did in fact look up the stats but I used more than just the 8 game sample of this playoffs. But if you want to get super specific, Ant's time of possession in the 6 games they've won these playoffs has been 33% higher than in the games they've lost (8.1 vs 6). Him being super ball dominant has resulted in wins and him being less ball dominant has resulted in losses. So whether you use a large sample size (i.e include regular season) that shows his average TOP to be only marginally higher than Jokic or you use a super specific sample of just this playoffs it still shows your point to be nonsense.
Luka entered the league with great teammates like Porzingas and Brunson, but he couldn't win, while MJ was unbeatable with one other star.
Compare their records with a decent teammate and we see that only MJ was unbeatable, while everyone else needed many star teammates a yet still mostly loses.
Luka lost with Brunson and it was a bad fit - let that sink in... MJ would've fit like a glove and made the best backcourt ever.
Fun fact. Luka did not enter the league with Porzingas and Bruson was a rookie.
MJ did great things with Pippen as a rookie?
Fun fact. Luka did not enter the league with Porzingas and Bruson was a rookie.
MJ did great things with Pippen as a rookie?
Brunson dominated the 2022 Playoffs, yet Luka lost to Curry/Wiggins/Poole.. That doesn't compare to MJ.
And Luka was a joke with Porzingis, who averaged 20 ppg and provided elite rim protection
Now Luka has Kyrie and won't win anything.
Why do these guys need so much help?... The answer is easy - casts need great chemistry to play great, but the simpleton "down-hill" skillset prevents this chemistry that is needed to "elevate teammates".. These "down-hill" players can't elevate teammates, whereas that was specifically what MJ did to win.. No one cared that MJ's cast was trash compared to Magic and Bird - everyone said he simply needed to "elevate teammates".. .So he did by fostering great chemistry.. He didn't dominate the ball like a jackass or have high turnover rate
Neither Ant nor SGA will win another game in these playoffs - their simpleton brand has been solved.. Luka will advance simply because he's the most experienced of the remaining ball-dominators and has Kyrie.
I did in fact look up the stats but I used more than just the 8 game sample of this playoffs. But if you want to get super specific, Ant's time of possession in the 6 games they've won these playoffs has been 33% higher than in the games they've lost (8.1 vs 6). Him being super ball dominant has resulted in wins and him being less ball dominant has resulted in losses. So whether you use a large sample size (i.e include regular season) that shows his average TOP to be only marginally higher than
Weak brands of ball like ball-domination work against lesser teams, while the top teams eventually adjust... So your numbers about Ant beating lesser teams and taking the Nuggets by surprise mean nothing.. Lebron beat a lot lesser teams too but he had a lottery record on the championship level and horrific record vs Finals teams overall (upset losses to Finals teams in 09' and 10', plus the worst-ever Finals record).
Ultimately, despite the Wolves being "too much" for the Nuggets after 2 games, Ant cannot achieve great chemistry with his superior cast because his brand of ball is vastly inferior to Jokic - ball-domination is the culprit but it's also the weak scoring diversity of down-hill players - Ant gets mostly down-hill layups and threes, with very little in between - go back and re-watch the highlights - he's just a down-hill player.. Defenses adjust to this simpleton shot allocation, while there's no adjustment for Jokic or MJ's wildly diverse shot allocation - they weren't just simpleton, "down-hill" players like Ant, SGA, Luka and Lebron (perennial losers that can't foster great chemistry, so their casts can't play great, which means they can't have great teams or great Finals records).
FFS Ant wasn't the problem last night
after 2 games, EVERYONE said the Wolves were too much and the Nuggets were overmatched
So they can't switch now and say Ant needs more help - he simply needs to improve his brand of ball and chemistry, so teammates play better (elevate teammates)..
Unfortunately, the simpleton, "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball and leaves teammates out.. So Ant's chemistry will always suffer and you guys will be saying he needs more help for the next 20 years just like Lebron's down-hill game.. We've seen this before and the wrong answer that people had was more help instead of better chemistry - simply getting better as a team.
So I was right - chemistry matters and it's the reason for losses just as much as insufficient talent (needing more help).. this is especially true for simpleton down-hill players that yield weak chemistry
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Not only is it not a drop step, it's not any kind of actual basketball move at all. Like why are we even talking about this? Are you going to post MJ running in a straight line next and talk about how amazing it is that MJ can run in a straight line? OMG, MJ can jump after one step, basketball was solved in the 80's.
Again, you don't even know what a drop step is (which itself is a fairly basic move) and you want to talk about skill? Do you even know how MJ's jump-shooting evolved? I was watching some MJ highlights from the 85-86 season recently and MJ (by today's standards) pretty clearly didn't know how to shoot a jumper properly. And that's okay - we know how to do things better than we did in the past. That's how anything works. It's arguably more impressive that MJ learned how to play basketball without having been taught these fundamentals, but figured out over time at the professional level. But that still means today's players are simply way ahead in terms of skill, since they've been executing much more difficult moves correctly since they were very young. It also means people like you who apparently can't learn literally can't understand what is even happening any more.
So again, show me where Ant demonstrates a drop-step, hop-step, jab-step or first-step on the level of what I showed for MJ?
What's next, Ant doesn't know how to walk? The more appropriate comparison when it comes to basketball moves and proper execution isn't Ant vs young MJ but rather young MJ versus random 13 year olds in AAU.
^^^ See this is an extremely unpolished and less-talented drive compared to MJ or Lebron - notice the extra dribble and tiny steps - he isn't trying to get to the rack with 1 dribble, which is a standard for goat drivers like MJ or Lebron.. The Ant drive shown above reminds me of a shorter player like Caitlan Clark - she drives like that - tiny steps and extra dribbles... So a shorter guy like Ant simply covers much less ground than MJ or Lebron, which makes his drives an entirely lower caliber of authority and effectiveness.
For MJ and Lebron, the first dribble on their right hand drives is the final dribble and gather step - there usually isn't a 2nd dribble - this type of 1-dribble drive that can get all the way to the rack requires longer legs... These one-dribble attempts often get partially cut-off, thus requiring a tough 4-8 footer that Ant stinks at - he lacks the touch and longer arms to effectively shot-make in traffic from those distances.. In addition to the touch issue, an extended-arm shot where a long arm wraps around a big man is another kind of shot that the 1-dribble gather step drive utilizes... So Ant's little steps and covering less ground is simply a lower level of driving from the goat level established by MJ, Lebron, Giannis and others..
You don't know what a drop-step is - every one I posted was a drop step (1-step vertical) - that's the best way to quickly describe a drop-step and it's accurate.
If you have a better description and example of a drop-step - have at it... I'm waiting.
Maybe you think that every shot requires a running start but that isn't how basketball works.. Accordingly, we're having this discussion because Ant can't catch the ball and then take one step, and then do any of the finishes that were shown earlier - his power and shot-making ability from this common position is literally nothing compared to Jordan and honestly, many other players.....
And yes - catching the ball and taking a step and finishing is certainly a move and it's often called a drop-step... But you can call it whatever you want - "1-step vertical" is the most accurate and concise way to describe it..
Btw, whether you want to accept it or not - the gif shown above is MJ posting up and then doing a drop-step move into a hanging jumper - the drop-step is used to get more power and hang-time.. It's a common move among skilled bigs and post players but no perimeter player was anywhere near MJ at it..
That's one of the main reasons MJ is goat - he's the only perimeter player to play at a goat level on the post - he has the best post game of any perimeter player, by far.. The drop-step power is a part of it, but obviously his footwork and goat turnaround jumper are a big part too.
Are you going to post MJ running in a straight line next and talk about how amazing it is that MJ can run in a straight line?
Ant can't dominate in every way - only the "down hill" (ball-dominant) way...
We can tell this is true because the rare times that he does a post turnaround, everyone busts a nut because it isn't STANDARD..... or much of a "bag"..
It's literally a boring, ordinary, non-dominant post game that people are comparing to MJ... It's pretty funny... Where's his post baseline spin package, lol gtfo you guys are clueless.
Young MJ (by today's standards) pretty clearly didn't know how to shoot a jumper properly.
MJ made the most jumpshots that anyone ever made in a season in 1987.
You just don't know the game
Go youtube "michael jordan 1987" and tell me that guy couldn't shoot.... lol... He was the greatest 2-point jumpshooter ever by 1987.... And he always shot at today's standard from three when he had today's volume, but he didn't start taking threes above "bailout volume" until 1990.
After 2 games, everyone said the Wolves were too much and the Nuggets were overmatched, so they can't switch now and say Ant needs more help.
There must be another explanation and it's intuitive - teams win via chemistry and/or talent, so the Wolves clearly lack the chemistry part since everyone said they had more than enough talent after 2 games - their talent was evident.
So it's clearly a chemistry issue - the "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball and leaves teammates standing there with little to do.. It doesn't elevate teammates and gets solved - teams learn to live with Ant's down-hill stats and shut down his teammates.
Ant must evolve out of this trend of weak chemistry because some guyw never learn the chemistry part and therefore needed to pursue talent-based winning instead (teaming up with opposing franchise players and forming "super-teams").. Talent-based winning blames all losses on "not enough help" instead of taking accountability for having weaker brand of ball and chemistry than an opponent (like the Nuggets).
It's especially alarming to excuse Ant from blame for losing with a 57-win top seed, while MJ is blamed for losing with 30-win lottery teams.. You're supposed to get excused when you have a bad team like the 19' Lakers or the 85-89' Bulls - you don't get excused when you have the top seed in the damn conference, the DPOY, 6MOY, an All-NBA teammate, and "length everywhere" (according to Lebron)... It's clearly a brand of ball and chemistry issue that Ant faces, due to his simpleton, "down-hill" skillset.
Since you don't watch the games the Wolves are the 3 seed and Denver is the 2 seed, it's a close matchup that can go either way and there is a ****ton of variance in 7 game series, another thing you always ignore and just assume it was Jordan's brilliance alone that they won, not that but a with healthy dose of good rng.
ant had 44 pts on 65% shooting and was the lone wolf playing defense gm4 but that's prolly due to his weak chemistry
"tiny steps" lmao
Twog, let's not pretend that you can break down the film of a modern player. You have zero ability to absorb new information and clearly weren't paying attention to what your coaches were saying, which is why you barely even understand 90's basketball. As to what a drop step is, you have to know what the opposite of a drop step is first - what is it?
It's not even clear that you have any actual understanding of the fundamentals as taught to like 10 year olds. Do you even know pivot works? Is this why your college coach never gave you playing time?
And yes - catching the ball and taking a step and finishing is certainly a move and it's often called a drop-step... But you can call it whatever you want - "1-step vertical" is the most accurate and concise way to describe it..
No, it's not about calling it whatever I want - it's about exposing the fact that you have literally no idea what you're talking about. I'm also trying to help you understand the demise of your basketball career and that it's most likely due to your complete inability to understand even the most basic elements, rather than something something lebron james soft whatever.
Since you don't watch the games the Wolves are the 3 seed and Denver is the 2 seed, it's a close matchup that can go either way and there is a ****ton of variance in 7 game series, another thing you always ignore and just assume it was Jordan's brilliance alone that they won, not that but a with healthy dose of good rng.
Exactly - the series was supposed to be close, which is why Ant can't blame some sort of talent deficit.
History shows that casts play great with great chemistry - Ant isn't fostering the chemistry that Jokic is, so his teammates aren't playing as well.
It's quite simple
The reason that Ant doesn't produce the same chemistry that Jokic does is because his down-hill skillset isn't 5-man basketball he scores the same way every time, while Jokic catches the ball everywhere and plays 5-man basketball - he gives defenses far more looks and strategic considerations, which leads to more possibility of defenses making mistakes and also fosters better chemistry
Twog, it's hilarious, some poor coach must have actually tried to teach you how to do a drop step at some point and years later, all you got out of that is, uh, it's like when you take a step and shoot right?
How embarrassing.
Twog, it's hilarious, some poor coach must have actually tried to teach you how to do a drop step at some point and years later, all you got out of that is, uh, it's like when you take a step and shoot right?
How embarrassing.
MJ had the goat drop-step shown earlier itt - if you disagree, show a better one from Ant.. Otherwise, you just sound dumb like someone who never played asking questions to someone that did
Ant needs 2 and 3 dribbles to do what MJ and Lebron did in 1... There's no comparison.. MJ and Lebron got the basket in 1 dribble - again, there's no comparison.
Of course Lebron lacks the jumpshooting... So MJ is the only guy that hhas everything - goat jumpshooting, goat rim attack and goat scoring diversity, goat clutch, never carried by teammate in any series
There isn't a single aspect of basketball that Ant is anywhere near MJ at.
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