LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Like what even is this drivel, do you literally have no idea what you're supposed to look at here? Also why are you faulting Ant for literally creating a wide open version of a shot that MJ looked to create all the time? We also already established that Ant is more efficient than MJ 3-10 feet out.

Also, Ant is probably taller than MJ now:

https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/timbe...

I believe Anthony Edwards was measured at 6-4 without shoes before this recent growth. MJ's height without shoes is generally estimated at around 6-4 1/2 or so.

Edit: I thought MJ was generally longer but I'm not sure any more - their wingspan might also be around the same.

You don't even know what a drop step is and you think you can evaluate basketball moves?

What does that have to do with having proper jump-shooting form? I'm sure some guy who had the most strikeouts on a curveball ever in a season or something by 1987 wouldn't objectively have anything remotely close to one of the best curveballs in baseball if he had to play in today's game.

The game evolves - MJ was great for his time, but we have a much better understanding of the game collectively.. Also, MJ was Ant's age in 1985, so I'm not sure why you're talking about MJ in 87.

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List of skills that MJ was GOAT at:

* turnaround jumpshot

* reverse layup

* 2-point jumpshooting

* triple-threat (pre-dribble, stationary position)

* combo leaper (1 or 2 legs)

* quickness above 6'3"

* quickness off feet

* hangtime

* left hand at the rim

* post game (non-bigs)

* baseline spin package

* steals

* defense (non-bigs)

* low turnovers for high-scoring perimeter players

* 4h quarter and clutch

* scoring diversity/team chemistry/elevating teammates

* jab-step

* hop-step

* first-step

* drop-step (for perimeter players)

MJ had goat jumpshooting form

You have no clue

85' MJ.............. 25.8 PER... 7.3 BPM... 7.4 VORP.... 0.213 WS/48... 28.2.. 6.5.. 5.9.. 2.4.. 0.8.. 59.3 TS
24' ANT........... 19.7 PER... 3.3 BPM... 3.7 VORP.... 0.130 WS/48... 25.9.. 5.4.. 5.1.. 1.3.. 0.5.. 57.5 TS

MJ's efficiency was superior despite facing max defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Ant has a developed team (4th year team) and All-NBA teammates to take defensive attention away from him.. Meanwhile, Ant can exert less defensive energy by virtue of having the GOAT defender on his team...

All-NBA teammate + the goat defender = more help than MJ 3-peated with

It's like twog's coach at some point taught him some a few basic moves back to simplify the game because honestly a 6-7 athletic dude didn't need much other than a functional brain and some super basic basketball knowledge to do well at lower levels back in the 90's

But then it turns out that twog couldn't even handle it, which led to a 4-point college career and life-long trauma, which leads to some weird MJ worship and Lebron hate some reason. And decades later, twog mistakenly thinks he figured out what his coaches were asking him to do (maybe after the 100th time he screwed up in practice, the coaches are like, forget I said this and just do this even simpler thing, which I guess twog then proceeded to screw up again) and somehow his (poor) understanding of these basic moves allows him to evaluate modern players.

I mean it's hilarious, the man is literally not capable of coaching 8 year-olds despite literally spending his life obsessed with basketball.

I'm just noticing the way he drives and that's just how a shorter player looks - he can't drive like Jordan or Lebron, who try to get to the hoop in one dribble whenever possible - it's a different caliber..

There's a chance that young Wade covers more ground.

^^^ that's exactly where he ISN"T superior to MJ, even old MJ in 97' or 98' (MJ stats here... Ant stats here).

Ant lacks the touch and longer arms/hands to have good efficiency on paint shots outside the restricted, or just outside the at-rim area.. So he's bad at 3-10 footers, along with mid-range overall (35%), while his at-rim supposedly was equal to 92' Jordan but certainly not 80's Jordan, and today's at-rim is of course inflated due to rules/format/strategy.

Ant is inferior from the 3-10 foot range because he lacks the touch and longer arms needed to finish wrap around bigs from that distance like the gifs seen above - "Ant-hands" Edwards needs to hold on to the ball until the last instant before releasing, and often shoots little 2 foot jumpers when he's forced to hang in the air at the rim.. It's cute but obviously not on MJ's level.

If that was true, then he would be drop-stepping and demolishing bigs like we saw MJ drop-step on Barkley or jack Sikma on the previous page of this thread.

He would be driving with more authority against taller guys like Gordon and going for footwork that allows getting to the rim with 1 dribble whenever possible.. This would open up an entirely more authoritative way to attack the rim that we saw from MJ or Lebron, where their 1 dribble attacks led to tremendous spin-move game and finishing when cut off.. Ant lacks all this.

jordan had no downhill game and had to resort to 360 fadeaway low percentage prayers in the paint

caitlin clark > ant > jordan

This aged poorly in less than 24 hours.

Wow solved SGA gets a road win. Unlucky Luka is so bad he can’t beat him even with Kyrie (averaging 15 ppg this series)

MJ
Jokic

Peak no one else is in the conversation.

Jokic already has a better peak than LeBron you say? Nah.

we're talking about 2 high-scoring ball-dominators (losing brands) playing each other, so I should've realized it would be more of a stalemate and some lucky plays might end up being the difference.

All my criticisms against SGA apply to Luka even more.. I mentioned that

regardless, neither SGA or Luka will win a title without a super-team or simply more help than they currently have - this is based on the most prominent high-scoring ball-dominator (Lebron)

^^^^ he needs a huge running start

many guys do that once in a while with a running start, but MJ could also have that kind of power off a drop-step, or one-step - whatever you want to call it - he smashed over 7-footers as if HE'S a 7-footer himself, aka no running start and palming the ball in your face..

And again, he could operate with that kind of power from closer distances like a big man - no running start.. This allowed him to dunk far more often.. Ant only gets about 70 dunks per year compared to 150 for Jordan in 1988 and presumably a lot more in 87' although we don't have exact data for 87'.. Assuming Jordan was near 200 dunks in 87', that would put him in record-level big man territory, aka Shaq, DeAndre Jordan, etc.

And when MJ dunked on 2 guys or a big poster, there was no need to fall down - he could land on his feet and clap in your face.

In addition to Ant's inability to posterize without a running start, he's poor at paint shots outside the restricted area, which require touch and are aided by longer arms and bigger hands - these are the extension layups that wrap around a long defender, shown earlier.. Ant's shot-making diversity is poor compared to Jordan, the goat shot-maker.. Of course, Ant is a few inches shorter than MJ, so he doesn't try to get all the way to the hole in 1 dribble like MJ or Lebron do whenever possible.. It's an entirely superior caliber of attacking the rim that Ant lacks

but again, mj could generate that power without a running start

Can someone explain what a "ball dominator" is?

Disclaimer - I'm a n00b if that wasn't clear.

Reading the last 2 pages of this thread, it has devolved to a guy LOLing another guy about drop steps, and a HS coach level attitude about form. Does anybody complain about Mahomes' form or Scheffler's form when they are the best in the world at their trade?

And if anybody is trying to compare Edwards to Jokic to advance some kind of argument about something then just give it up bro.

Exactly bro Ant is nowhere near a generational offensive player like Jokic, Curry or MJ.

Ant is a simpleton downhill player searching for a 3 or layup, which isn't 5-man basketball - we saw Ant come out in Game 4 to make up for Game 3, but high volume of his down-hill brand left teammates in the cold...

Otoh, MJ and Jokic can catch the ball anywhere and dominate with wildly diverse shot-making, so they can achieve great stats while maintaining great ball movement, chemistry and brand of ball that elevates teammates.

And that's my new goat criteria - elevating teammates... Everyone said that the Wolves were "too much" for the Nuggets after 2 games but now they're saying Ant needs more help - the issue is that Ant doesn't know how to elevate teammates yet because he hasn't evolved out of his simpleton, down-hill brand (not 5 man basketball)..

Casts play great when the chemistry is great, and Ant simply doesn't know how to foster great chemistry yet.. Most "down-hill" players never learn and need to join opposing franchise players (and the weak brand still mostly loses).

This is about exposing the fact that twog doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to basic basketball fundamentals. How long has twog been droning on about drop steps in this thread? I usually don't pay attention to his gifs but I did this time and I was surprised to see that what twog doesn't know what a drop step is, despite having talked about it for years.

There's a ton wrong with this. First of all, we're talking about different eras - in fact the entire point is that on an absolute basis, Ant can do all these MJ things and does a lot of them better than MJ did, yet MJ was the best basketball player in the world and Ant is maybe like 20th best or something. That tells you a ton about today's era.

Second, I'm talking about young MJ, specifically a 22-year old MJ. Young MJ wasn't remotely close to the best jumpshooter in the game and was also probably not the best player in the world (though he was close). Young MJ also went on to refine his shooting form - his shooting form was great (well for his time and considering that he lived in the midrange) late in his career. One point is that MJ himself came into the league as a fairly unpolished jumpshooter who relied far more on athleticism than clean form and evolved his game to a point where he was known for his jumpshooting.

And this is entirely about how much more advanced today's basketball is - even MJ, a player known for his skill and whose moves would go on to inspire the next generation, wasn't that skilled as a young player by today's standards. Again, this tells you about the information environment of the times and how different things are today. Any 9-year old today can basically learn any basketball move - everything is out there - as long as they are willing to put in the work. This completely changes the game, especially at the youth level.

Historically, players like MJ have been considered ball-dominant (high-usage in general and high iso percentage), but some people also consider time of possession stats (which can be informative but also misleading) since it's available for modern players.

In case anyone's wondering what twog means, he's referring to players that effectively utilize fancy handle and dribble moves to create shots. This class of players, especially if they are wings rather than natural point guards, seems to cause a lot of distress for twog. In twog's mind, doing this is really bad, though somehow post-ups are exempt from this criticism.

He has this weird grudge about modern players who can make something happen with the ball from the perimeter and makes up weird narratives around how it's actually bad that they created these wide open shots or got a clean layup because it took an extra dribble or whatever.

You can also see this in the gifs of MJ that he chooses to post. MJ early on was highly athletic but his handle was a bit shaky and he didn't have a bag, so he was a bit more direct - these are the gifs twog tends to post, presumably since twog can see himself do those types of things (it's easier!). This is also why post-ups are okay, even though they can also take time to set up and have a higher risk of turnover - he can see himself learning the post moves. There are also highlights where MJ (more late career) shows off fancier moves, but twog doesn't like to post those.

It's fairly clear to me that twog's commentary on this topic is entirely about his own limitations as a player. He's a 6-7 forward that couldn't cut it in college (scored a total of 4 points from what he's shared) that was supposedly super athletic (but very skinny from what he shared) that he got a D1 scholarship despite being marginal in high school. This likely means twog was extremely limited from a skill perspective and his coaches probably tried to get him to play simple without the ball and encouraged him to be direct when he has the ball to avoid turning over the ball given his non-existent handle. So all this is about him puffing up some idealized version of himself, talking up his own physical attributes and skills he imagines he could have theoretically learned, while criticizing players with physical attributes he didn't have and skills that he can't ever imagine himself developing.

The central narrative here seems to be that not only is MJ the GOAT, but that MJ's GOAT career was fueled by the physical attributes shared by him and MJ and the skill set that he imagines he could've had.

The formula for usage is essentially shot attempts + FTA + turnovers, so usage measures shot attempts.... Klay Thompson could have high usage by simply shooting the ball 30 times, yet his ball-domination would be low... Ball-domination is measured in the actual number of minutes that a player holds the ball in their hands each game - it's a point guard stat since they bring the ball up and use a lot of live-dribbles to set up the offense and run screen-roll action, aka dominate the ball...

The league's most prominent ball-dominators are Lebron, Luka, Harden, Westbrook, SGA, etc, etc, etc.. Point guards will always have a certain level of ball-domination, so that's standard across all teams, but the issue is when Lebron dominates the ball from a frontcourt position - this creates 2 point guard lineups that give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in normal 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and struggles on the championship level.

Off-ball players allow the ball to move but it requires expert jumpshooting skill and/or great power off 1 step, so the player can finish quickly upon the catch without requiring setup time or ball-domination:

Look at the touch required to be an expert jumpshooter that can play off-ball and without ball-domination - rookie MJ had this touch:

Look how rookie MJ could go to the post and SEAL HIS MAN to enable an entry pass and drop-step - it's perfect individual offense enabled by post fundamentals and goat power off 1-step - again, since MJ could score like this, he could get 40 while teammates are assisting him instead of getting 40 in a down-hill fashion that isn't 5-man basketball:

Look how MJ can operate out of the triple-threat position (pre-dribble, stationary position), which lessens the dribbling and ball-domination:

Look how MJ shreds the defender within a second of catching the ball - no ball-domination or "down-hill" skillset needed:

Look at MJ's quick instinct and expert jumpshooting skill, and hang-time - it seems simple but NO ONE has it like this:

^^^^ When you can score like that (off-ball), you don't have to use a "down-hill" skillset that isn't 5 man basketball and therefore lacks the chemistry to elevate teammates... "Down-hill" skillset is necessary sometimes, but a steady diet of it will impose spot-up roles too much and get predictable... Ant will lose the last 3 games of this series just like Lebron did for nearly all of his playoff losses - opponents figure out the "down-hill" skillset (AAU-brand) and then they can't lose thereafter.

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Btw, 22-year old Kobe was champion, 1st option over peak Shaq against the Spurs, and BETTER than 22-year Ant in literally every aspect of the game

Ant vs 24' Nuggets........... 30/5/5

Kobe vs 01' Spurs............. 33/7/7
Shaq vs 01' Spurs............. 27/13/3

Ant could never be 1st option over peak Shaq... It's absurd.. Since Ant doesn't even match up to 22-year Kobe, he's nowhere near Mr. 63 and "god in basketball shoes" Michael Jordan..

This series is showing that there are GENERATIONAL offensive players like Jokic/Curry/MJ and then everyone else.. Ant is several tiers below in the "down-hill" tier of simpleton skillsets and perennial losers (Luka, Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, SGA, Ant, etc, etc)...

So it looks like we're running out of guys to put in the thread title... Ant's weaknesses have been exposed as a typical "down-hill" player that always "needs more help" because the media is too dumb to understand his skillset is bad at chemistry.

lol @ thinking Kobe was the 1st option over Shaq.

Twog hating on Ant is a pretty huge tell as to how much of this is about puffing up an imaginary version of himself vs supporting MJ. Because Ant in many ways is an ideal, modern version of MJ, so MJ lovers should be all over him, assuming they loved the things MJ brought to the table. But his handle is just too good and his body too well-built for twog to relate.

So twog has to belittle Ant in a way that makes him look good. Instead of being well-built and powerful, he's short, even though he's probably around the same height or taller than MJ, because twog was tall but not well-built. Likewise, instead of Ant having incredible on-ball skills that help him look MJ-like but in a modern way, he dribbles too much and dominates the ball, because well, twog couldn't handle the ball, so you see, being too good with the ball is actually a bad thing.