Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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One year after the Battle of Mosul, Iraqi authorities still didn't have very good estimates for civilian casualties. And these authorities actually controlled Mosul, and weren't forced to hide in tunnels most of the time.
The idea that Hamas has precise estimates basically in real time is completely ludicrous. And of course it says a lot that progressives and Muslims that challenge every single thing Israel claims (because they ostensibly think the truth is so important) are so willing to just uncritically accept everything Hamas says. It really is all just level 1 tribalism.
The progressives in this thread are on team Hamas. It really is that simple.
So correspondences from Sinwar are being leaked out. And they confirm what is already obvious. Is that from the beginning he expected lots of Palestinians civilians would die to achieve Hamas's political goals, and he was perfectly ok with this. And if anything, the levels of Palestinians dying is much lower than his desire.
What I think is the interesting question is "why" the correspondences are being leaked out now. It may indicate an indication that Qatar and the other Sunni states have h
He calls the civilians deaths "necessary sacrifices", clear admission that they died because of Hamas choices
lol, so the pier doesn't deliver aid but it does deliver IDF commandos who are deliberately blurring the lines between civilians and combatants in exactly the same way Hamas is being accused of.
No boats were used Trolly. The place you can most safely land a chopper anywhere near Nuseirat is on the beach (once the flight path is safely along the water in particular). The beach is one kilometer in a straight line from there. They went to the most obvious place to land choppers on the SAND
From the beach you know there's nobody that can shoot from behind you, the sea delimits your 6 oclock. They weren't going to extract in spot where they had 360 degrees of rpgs to contend with.
He calls the civilians deaths "necessary sacrifices", clear admission that they died because of Hamas choices
It really is absurd that Gaza declared war on Israel on 10/7, are fighting said war with no desire to stop, and it is completely Israel's obligation to provide for people they are fighting; and Gaza's own government is actively trying to get its own civilians killed and is completely absolved by the world of any responsibility.
It really is absurd that Gaza declared war on Israel on 10/7, are fighting said war with no desire to stop, and it is completely Israel's obligation to provide for people they are fighting; and Gaza's own government is actively trying to get its own civilians killed and is completely absolved by the world of any responsibility.
Not by the world: by leftists, neonazis, and enemies of the west. Ie by enemies of our countries foreign and domestic.
Wealthy gazean living off pallywood propaganda and working as spokesmen for Hamas aren't coherced by Hamas, they ARE Hamas lol.
The purported "political arm" purportedly distinct from the "military arm" doesn't exist, everyone in the "political arm" is a combatant, is a material supporter of acts of terrors, an enabler of them, and should be killed because of that.
How many of them do you think there are that deserve to be killed?
Tbh i didn't think the corruption in the west reached that scale. I wasn't operating under the assumption that western based associations employed actual hostage takers in a full capacity. So i can't answer now, this is a new horrific development for me
Btw Nuseirat was one of several places the IDF never really went into before this past weekend. So they knew their people were being hidden in densely populated civilians areas they largely can't get to. Held in civilian homes to create the second and third human shield layers.
We can at least put to rest this seemingly debated question of using humans as shields for the Hamas war effort. That's the model. It's always been the model. Maybe today we can at least discuss the conflict in this context and have some honest discussions about how many civilians die because of this model.
Btw Nuseirat was one of several places the IDF never really went into before this past weekend. So they knew their people were being hidden in densely populated civilians areas they largely can't get to. Held in civilian homes to create the second and third human shield layers.
We can at least put to rest this seemingly debated question of using humans as shields for the Hamas war effort. That's the model. It's always been the model. Maybe today we can at least discuss the conflict in this conte
That was the model in my mind, now we have elements to believe the shields are actually volunteers more often than we assumed.
I think we now need to reason with the "it takes a town to hide a hostage for months" model. Maybe in hindsight it's obvious since they don't have tunnels anymore.
The "human shields!" nonsense has been crock of **** from day 1, now it's made clear the IDF has zero problem shamelessly appropriating civilian infrastructure when it's convenient. It's all just excuse after excuse to continue the warcrimes against civilian population centers.
It's so obviously nonsensical that now Lucio needs to come up with more excuses, now we're told that the civilians are responsible for hiding Hamas and therefore it's okay to slaughter them en masse.
Another reminder of what people ittt think is a good strategy.
Btw Nuseirat was one of several places the IDF never really went into before this past weekend. So they knew their people were being hidden in densely populated civilians areas they largely can't get to. Held in civilian homes to create the second and third human shield layers.
We can at least put to rest this seemingly debated question of using humans as shields for the Hamas war effort. That's the model. It's always been the model. Maybe today we can at least discuss the conflict in this conte
That's the nature of this kind of irregular warfare. Hamas are civilians, operating as a paramilitary rather than a military force, and this is the only way they can gain an advantage over the IDF, by complicating IDF decision-making and limiting the scope for the IDF's superior firepower. They're bound to do that kind of thing, out of elementary self-interest. There may be an issue as to how far the IDF are obliging Hamas, in terms of the information war, by proceeding heavy-footed and killing too many people for little strategic gain. It's not as if Hamas is about to go away, or as if Israel is anywhere within sight of that objective.
The US-backed UN-approved ceasefire proposal faces a few hurdles. Hamas claim they accept it, because it requires their approval and therefore leaves them in place and in power after Israel's withdrawal, which is exactly what the Israelis won't stand for, but the Israelis have no plan for what should happen after Hamas, even if they were able to destroy Hamas, which, again, they don't so far look like doing. It's all pretty depressing.
This is a big part of why Israel needed a political solution with international backing. Instead of losing so much support they could have galvanised political support. No more attacks on israel could have been a rallying cry for international support.
It's never too late to try but so much harder now.
Again, this is fantasy. US and Arab nations rushed to tell the world they would not be a part of an occupation force.
“Political solution with international backing” in which Hamas was disarmed was never on the table with Sinwar alive.
That's the nature of this kind of irregular warfare. Hamas are civilians, operating as a paramilitary rather than a military force, and this is the only way they can gain an advantage over the IDF, by complicating IDF decision-making and limiting the scope for the IDF's superior firepower. They're bound to do that kind of thing, out of elementary self-interest. There may be an issue as to how far the IDF are obliging Hamas, in terms of the information war, by proceeding heavy-footed and killing
The political wing has been trying to negotiate and Sinwar vetoed every deal.
Sinwar is daring Israel to remove him by force. Israel needs to do it, almost regardless of the costs.
At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised the Hamas’ political themselves are trying to get rid of Sinwar.
The "human shields!" nonsense has been crock of **** from day 1, now it's made clear the IDF has zero problem shamelessly appropriating civilian infrastructure when it's convenient. It's all just excuse after excuse to continue the warcrimes against civilian population centers.
It's so obviously nonsensical that now Lucio needs to come up with more excuses, now we're told that the civilians are responsible for hiding Hamas and therefore it's okay to slaughter them en masse.
Hamas hides amongst the population. How is the "human shields" nonsense?
The political wing has been trying to negotiate and Sinwar vetoed every deal.
Sinwar is daring Israel to remove him by force. Israel needs to do it, almost regardless of the costs.
At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised the Hamas’ political themselves are trying to get rid of Sinwar.
It's theater. Each and every one of them is a bloodthirsty terrorist. That's already clear enough.
Someone might try to use Sinwar as scapegoat and hope for a ceasefire if he gets killed, to rebuild tunnels and rape and kidnap more Jews in the future.
Every single person linked to Hamas has to be killed for this to stop forever.
Trolly EVEN the UN has proven it's not a crock of ****, if you want to ignore hundreds of photos and moments like this past weekend, which are entirely evident for the world to see.
Hamas almost never fights from some wide open field/beach/trench/warehouse/military base. They fight from the city. They store and launch weapons in the city. They keep hostages in the city. And on Oct 7th it was more of the same.
This is done to maximize casualties on their side, and to great effect I might add.
The combination of using your civilians as shield, PLUS cooking the books, got the world to call this a genocide. Hard to argue with results. Even if not a single one of us in here would fight that dirty. And btw don't confuse this as some sort of full carte blanche for the IDF. I've listed all the ways I feel they failed in this conflict. But a lot of how they fail is due to this specific abhorrent Hamas model of fighting in such close proximity to your most vulnerable.
Click at your peril.
Why an I supposed to be sorry? I have no reason to believe that was an innocent bystander hit wrongly, and if as the vast majority of IDF targets we now know they are, he was kn any way implicated with Hamas or any other form of violent uprising against Israel, why should I be sorry for him being hit? If anything the sniper should have shot more to guarantee the kill .
And why would a supposed young age (not clear from the video) anything I should care about?
Hamas almost never fights from some wide open field/beach/trench/warehouse/military base. They fight from the city. They store and launch weapons in the city.
Yeah man, popular resistance groups tend to be where the population is for obvious reasons, the Viet Cong weren't running around in nice open fields far away from villages. This isn't a blank check to massacre everyone in the village --you can't watch the IDF butcher 30,000+ people and say "oh golly gee, human shields!" as if that's some kind of excuse.
700 wounded in one op, it's clear the IDF has absolutely zero concern for civilian well-being and is going to operate in crowded areas regardless of how many lives they claim in the process. Incidentally, the IDF also fights from a city, with a HQ surrounded by civilians, but that's different of course.
Lucio, always ahead of the curve, has progressed from "human shields" to "well, they're all Hamas, killemall"
I have moved to "I need proof not to agree with a target chosen by IDF" given the exceptional precision they have shown these months.
The h0 is that anyone they kill deserved to die because they are Hamas collaborationist or active members.
Onus of proof is on you guys, without using Hamas sources.
GL
Yeah man, popular resistance groups tend to be where the population is for obvious reasons, the Viet Cong weren't running around in nice open fields far away from villages. This isn't a blank check to massacre everyone in the village --you can't watch the IDF butcher 30,000+ people and say "oh golly gee, human shields!" as if that's some kind of excuse.
700 wounded in one op, it's clear the IDF has absolutely zero concern for civilian well-being and is going to operate in crowded areas regardles
All 700 hundred (if the figure is true) are on Hamas.
When you come into a country, kidnap humans, and then store them in your most crowded civilians areas, everything that follows is on you. Full stop.
Keep the hostages away from your people and your people have a much better chance at never being around a rescue op.
Once the IDF rescue vehicle is disabled in the middle of Nuseirat and the mobs with RPGs are coming? Sorry man, that's all on Hamas. Just like in Blackhawk down, once 4 hostages and a truck full of the IDF's best are stranded, and the bad guys are closing in, it's going to escalate into what you saw. Those hostages are coming home.
