T9s flops thick but whacko line

BTW, we are only 50 straddles deep versus V1. We don't have much stack depth postflop to zig and zag to outplay Villain even if he just limp-calls us with his stronger preflop range. This is not a typical 200 big blinds deep, or even 150 big blinds deep, or even 100 big blinds deep spot.

We are very shallow here. We should keep our strategy pretty anchored to preflop card advantage. Positional/skill advantage doesn't mean much for the "ISO limper and outplay him postflop" plan.

i kind of want to just jam river yourself the first time

The raise is giving us horrendous IO of just 8:1 against the raiser (admittedly expecting the guy to overcall behind us pads this a bit). Still, a pretty poor setmining spot, let alone a speculative hand mining spot (i.e. we simply aren't going to bink the flop at nearly a high enough rate as we need to).

GcluelessNLnoobG

A quick Google search states that flopping trips or better with an unpaired preflop hand is about 50:1. Dude's 3bet sizing / stack is offering us about ~8:1. And to make matters worse (as if we really need to) we're assuming he always flops an overpair (i.e. never whiffs with AK, never sees a A99 flop with KK, etc.).

Gthat'saproblemG

I should make it clearer that I'm not taking a stance on whether we should ISO pre. I've somewhat left it up to OP because it's dependent on information not provided*.

I am doubtful that overlimping in front of the aggro straddler is a very good idea though.

Unfortunately there's no way to make the situation this clear. Preflop is FAR too early for hands to clearly fall into either a vbetting or bluffing bucket. Assuming the straddler defends 75% (and reraises most of JJ+/AK/AQs), that SB has about 20% of hands (and mostly would have PFRed TT+, KQs+, AQ+) and that BB's l/c range is the top 15%* of hands (minus KK+/AK), then we have just under 25% equity, or more less than our necessary share in the pot.

The question is how we over-realize our equity. Raising allows us to overrealize, predominantly by getting folds. Either individual players fold and donate dead money to the pot (unfortunately if only one player folds, that dead money is raked in its entirety at this stake), or (very occasionally) we scoop outright. There are also times where we don't see the flop (we shouldn't have seen this one), but they're outnumbered by the times others don't. We also over-realize our equity by repping a range that hits opposite flops from what we actually hit, getting more folds and free cards on boards that miss this hand and getting paid off lighter on boards that do hit our hand 'cause it looks like our AK whiffed. Then, of course, there's the factor of how bad our opponents are, which allows us to over-realize with either a raise or a limp.

This is of course largely dependent on that asterisks I included above: how wide is OMC's BB completing range? If he only l/cs the top 10% of hands, then we lose a full percentage point of equity. If he only ever completes with hands that he'll call a raise with, then he never donates dead money to the pot.

OTHERWISE, T9s sort of operates at a straddle point where the wider the straddler and limpers call, the more our equity rises (relative to our share in the pot) and the more they fold, the more dead money there is and the better we are able to realize our equity. This is why ISO'ing with T9s can operate as a "standard". It's a sort of minimax strategy that maximizes our EV while minimizing the ways that villains' various (and in this case highly contradictory) strategies can exploit our play.

(Notice nothing I said is highly dependent on spiking two pair and scooping an enormous pot, so the fact that we're "only" effectively 50bbs deep isn't short enough to make our strategy unviable. While ~200bbs would be the sweet spot for getting paid with baby flushes and the like, being this short makes it easier for us to realize equity with our TPNK type hands we'll have to defend against straddler's aggression, for example).

Draws in lol SPR < 2 pots are pretty worthless as there simply isn't enough money behind to warrant calling any reasonable flop bet. And again, plug in the amount of times you'll flop two pear (which is easily counterfeited against an overpair) or the crushing trips+.

Preflop is absolutely torching money. And this is a big reason I utilize a 0% raising range from ~HJ-, because people just make horrendous raise/calls here with lol stacks.

GcluelesstorchingmoneynoobG

Yeah, 100% what this guy said, calling off 1/5th your stack because you'll sometimes flop 30% equity isn't a winning strat! Who is this guy anyway?

Oh **** it's gobbledygeek.

Well It's $100 to call into a pot that would be 800. Do you know how much equity you need in that to be profitable. The tank call isn't someone with a queen. No way an OMC tanks on that and he would likely raise. The the other player, as you noted, is trash. There's straights out there and flushes. Both of which the person might think they're ahead somehow if they're stupid.

There's no way to avoid calling here. You have the OMC beaten for sure. You also have the idiot beaten at least half of the time. Does that guy check the turn if he has a queen? Not likely. Does he bet only $100 if he has the nuts?

This is not a difficult question.

We aren't. He was. There's no we here.

PRE - Unless BTN and blinds are squeeze-happy, just limp, don't raise. If the players behind are likely to squeeze, raise or fold. When V1 limp-raises, just fold.

FLOP - As played pre, I'm betting huge on this flop, around 2/3 pot, like $125-$130.

TURN - Yeesh. I guess check-back.

RIVER - If we're confident in our reads, jam. Hope to get called by any KJ / J8 that isn't hh, any flush, and over-pairs.

Limp. Great advice. Please tell that to everyone and play with that mindset. It's great for me to have people who play straight up with tight ranges and have no idea of where they are in a hand.

If the explanation matters - my suggestion for hero to limp here stems from a few factors:

1. the fact that there's a BTN straddle on, which tends to strengthen EP ranges.

2. the shortish stack depths of our opponents - we're only playing a little over 50bb's deep with V1, with the $6 straddle on.

3. OP's description of V1 in EP (he likes to limp-3B big PP's) - and sure enough, he limp-3B over hero's raise.

4. the fact that T9s really isn't that strong a hand, even in LP in a 5-handed game, but especially not in a 3B pot, when the SB is trappy from EP.

You may have missed that I also added a conditional factor, which is whether or not the players left to act are prone to squeezing. Here, it seems like the BTN is not very squeeze happy, and we know V1 in the SB likes to limp-3B, so just limping in with T9s seems better than raising, when all we're doing is lowering the SPR going to the flop, with a fairly speculative hand.

T9s is a bit of a trouble hand, in that we'll often end up being dominated by bigger pairs and better TX when we make TP, or higher straights and flushes, especially in 3B pots, when lots of money goes in post-flop. It's not really a hand that's going to do very well in many <2 SPR situations.

If we just limped, it wouldn't be that hard to have a pretty good idea where we are post-flop, when we're second-to-last to act. We'll either hit the flop or whiff. Our opponents will either bet in front of us or check to us.

It shouldn't be any harder than knowing where we are in a SRP, as the PFR, especially if we've been paying attention to what our opponents have been doing, and our reads are solid.

Congrats on getting paid off here

I've read the first couple of replies but that's all.

Anything but overlimp here with a decent suited connector 50BB deep. Iso is fine but don't just go to 4x over two limpers, all you'll do is drag in the button straddle. I'd have made it 35-40 but just open folding isn't ridiculous. You've already got this player down as limp-reraising AA/AK/KK and you decide to call with a player behind you? That's just a "coz odds" decision and it's a bad one. Let this go.

Flop is fine. When both players call at least one of them probably has a Queen but be aware that someone can have a better Ten as well.

Turn you are now likely losing and check is fine.

River is interesting. V1 check doesn't suggest a Queen but his call of the small bet certainly doesn't; you are chopping with him at worst, he may well have called KJ here (although none of this fits in with our preflop read). V2 has had the opportunity to bet the nuts on the turn and turned it down, and has now bet very small. This could be a thin bet with a Ten but they can't both have a Ten! Instinct is you are calling mostly to chop with one player, V2 occasionally has the nuts and even more occasionally is bluffing. Calling getting 7/1 seems reasonable.

Edit: now seen results, didn't pick up on the backdoor flush. Makes sense and yes calling here is fine. With both flush and straight coming in on the river yes perhaps a lead yourself here is justified...bet-fold... interesting hand.

One final thought, if V1 calls river here with KK then you need to adjust your opinion of him as "slightly losing" unless the table quality is horrific