The costs of trans visibility
Yesterday, Dylan Mulvaney broke her silence: https://www.tiktok.com/@dylanmulvaney/vi....
For contex
What happened to the I asked you first game? Didn't I already ask you twice? Is this going to be like when I ask someone prescribing to gender ideology to define a woman and they pretend it's not like pulling teeth to get answers to the most obvious questions?
I don't understand what you are saying here. Were there questions you asked that I didn't address that are still relevant to the discussion? Please repost or link.
I've got some questions that I think will illustrate our differences better. I'll answer and respond but I don't want to re-frame the points beforehand1. What is a woman? Definition
You've played this shtick before. Uke provided an answer on April 24: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...You posted a few hours later to say that no one answers you. You then stayed away from the thread
I share the sentiment with homosexuality
Are you saying it's the same for being trans?
If you don't believe gender exists, then your question, "What is a woman?" seems like it would always lead to precisely this post by you. That is, you'd respond to any definition of the gender 'woman' with a rant about how gender isn't a thing so the definition doesn't make sense. But it's not like I just made up a definition on my own -- you can find this definition yourself i
It looks to me like you're answering my question with a question
This line of questioning is very boring.
It is.
Woman: an adult female person
Sports should sort by sex not gender.
As long as all things trans was kept to those 21 years old and higher the vast, vast majority of society did not give a crap
It's the recent inclusion and celebration of kids that has changed everything
For example, It's when I, as a teacher, am not allowed to tell parents that their kid is in the group with the highest risk of suicide,
well now, you've crossed a line. Soon enough, if it hasnt happened already,
a kid will kill themselves and the parents will find out that the school knew and didnt tell them
And the lawsuits will change this policy overnight.
Letting teenage boys in the girl's bathrooms? WTF?
Teenage boys are possibly the dumbest people on earth with the lowest level of impulse control
And you're cool with them going into your daughter's bathroom?
I have no problem with the pushback on all trans issues THAT INVOLVE KIDS.
In fact, I encourage it.
Kids cant consent to sex, tattoos, alcohol, etc, but allow them to permanently alter their bodies?
That's insane.
One of my kids was wondering if he wanted to try hormone therapy to be more feminine and I told Mom, before we went to the appt,
"I'll call and remove him from my health insurance policy before I leave the parking lot if the doctor writes a prescription,
and if that doesnt work, I'll resign from my job. Once he turns 21, he can do what he wants. I will not be part of this while he is a kid.
I will not be sitting across from him when he is 23 and says, "why did you let me do this? I was an idiot teenager? You were supposed to protect me"
The idea was to let him find out for himself he didnt want this before having to do anything far more confrontational
Fortunately, no prescription was offered, and he grew out of the phase.
In 100 years, people are gonna look at this trans the kids movement and compare it to the Salem Witch Trials.
"Wait, a giant dude was allowed to win swimming titles with girls?"
"They cut off the boobs of teen girls and ding-a-lings off teenage boys and created a literal hole that had to have a physical tube lubed up and placed inside so it didnt close up?
"They had overly sexualized drag queens dancing suggestively in stripper outfits in front of young kids? and reading to them at libraries"
Once you involved those under 21, the normies were forced to step up and defend children.
Ya wanna read some hearthbreaking stuff? Go to the reddit sub called "detrans"
It's not a small number, teenagers are idiots, and to let them mutilate their bodies permanently is insane.
I've read most of the posts on this thread and the amount of condescension from uke is typical and disgusting.
As long as all things trans was kept to those 21 years old and higher the vast, vast majority of society did not give a crap
This is revisionist history at best; society has long held significantly negative attitudes towards males who are markedly gender nonconforming in both behavior and appearance as a whole, regardless of whether or not they actually identify as transgender. So many people like to say "save the tomboys," when markedly feminine behavior in young boys has, up until quite recently, been so actively discouraged that there isn't even an equivalent term to "tomboy"
It's the recent inclusion and celebration of kids that has changed everythingFor example, It's when I, as a teacher, am not allowed to tell parents that their kid is in the group with the highest risk of suicide,well now, you've crossed a line. Soon enough, if it hasnt happened already, a kid will kill themselves and the parents will find out that the school knew and didnt tel
You probably shouldn't be telling parents that trans-identifying people have the highest rates of suicide without actually having a nuanced and thorough understanding of why this is the case - social ostracization is just as much a contributing factor to suicide rates as things like untreated comorbid mental illness, not to mention that just trying to primarily repress gender dysphoria in order to deal with it could very well produce the same outcome. You're not really doing anyone any more of a favor in that scenario
In 100 years, people are gonna look at this trans the kids movement and compare it to the Salem Witch Trials."Wait, a giant dude was allowed to win swimming titles with girls?""They cut off the boobs of teen girls and ding-a-lings off teenage boys and created a literal hole that had to have a physical tube lubed up and placed inside so it didnt close up?"They had overly sexuali
There are certainly some very obvious issues regarding gender dysphoria and transgender identity that have only begun to quite obviously manifest more recently, but overly emotional and significantly oversimplified takes like this are just as harmful to gender dysphoric people as the pure "affirmation" stuff (if not even more so)
And unfortunately, that kind of thing isn't really going to let up anytime soon, now that every Western country's political machine is churning out extremely divisive propaganda on both sides of the issue in order to get engagement and votes
You guys are all participating in a culture war that uses gender dysphoric people as pawns, and they're ultimately the ones who suffer
There are certainly some very obvious issues regarding gender dysphoria and transgender identity that have only begun to quite obviously manifest more recently, but overly emotional and significantly oversimplified takes like this are just as harmful to gender dysphoric people as the pure "affirmation" stuff (if not even more so)And unfortunately, that kind of thing isn't reall
This.
but overly emotional and significantly oversimplified takes like this are just as harmful to gender dysphoric people as the pure "affirmation" stuff (if not even more so)
You guys are all participating in a culture war that uses gender dysphoric people as pawns, and they're ultimately the ones who suffer
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You see a "Culture War"
We see a "Saving Kids From Permanently Mutilating Their Bodies That They May Regret Later And Now It's Worse War"
After 21, have at it, do what you want with your body if that's what you want to do.
Of course, you do know the latest studies show that trans surgeries do NOT lower suicide rates ten years after the fact,
but you'll probably deny that those studies are valid
Also, there is no "trans genocide" going on,
studies show the vast majority of those murdered are domestics,
See, we are not actually that far apart, I'm cool with trans people making the decision AFTER 21
I'm not with those under 21.
I hope trans people have long happy fulfilling lives, I root for everybody.
But a decision of this importance and permanence should not be made until they are 21
And as to "overly emotional and significantly oversimplified takes"
isnt your side the one that created the phrase "would you rather have a dead son or a live daughter"?
You wouldn't allow your kid to get a giant spongebob tat on their face but you're cool with kids having trans surgeries?
Keep it to just the adults and you'll have the moral high ground,
as it is, you all look like child predators encouraging or supporting or condoning, or whatever verb you want to use
But I wish you well, you made your points in a productive way,
I can meet you half (part?) way at "keep the surgeries to 21 and over"
Before 21 give em all the therapy and support and love you can
And on their 21st bday if they still want the surgeries, have at it!
That's my demarcation line
It's just embarrassing and sad we have to argue the point.
Leaving the rest of the post aside, is there a reason you want young people to wait another 3 years after legal adulthood? Why not 1? Or 5? Or 0?
Leaving the rest of the post aside, is there a reason you want young people to wait another 3 years after legal adulthood? Why not 1? Or 5? Or 0?
Presumably it's the standard reasons for age limits in a liberal society. This is a decision with massive implications, as alcohol can be. Just to point out one thing, you might never have another orgasm.
As you age you have more experience. You're theoretically independent of your parents. Your brain is more developed. Yada yada yada.
I think there is a valid point in some recent posts. The emperical information is just that GD exists.
There's something consumerist/capitalist about the idea that you should "fix" this by spending huge gobs of money on radical surgery.
This is the same industry that says, we should be ashamed of the natural aging process. That people from big nosed ethnicities should be ashamed. That Asians should be ashamed of their eyes. And it can all be fixed with expensive, painful, sometimes dangerous surgery they sell.
As opposed to realizing it's ok to age naturally or not look like Scarlett Johansson.
Camille Paglia, most probably know, is a very smart, high functioning (college professor) person. She has GD and is glad these options were closed to her. She thinks it's better to just accept your body and live and behave outside the box.
However, adults have the right to get nose jobs or whatever. Maybe its the right thing for them. It's their call.
If you set aside transpeople as well as exceptions like burn victims, I think there is little question that people who just come to terms with natural aging or a big nose are happier than people who desperately cling to youth or chase some ideal appearance.
Dang, just looked it up and people can get nose jobs at like 14. That should definitely be illegal. But it shows you what these doctors are really about.
You see a "Culture War" We see a "Saving Kids From Permanently Mutilating Their Bodies That They May Regret Later And Now It's Worse War"After 21, have at it, do what you want with your body if that's what you want to do.Of course, you do know the latest studies show that trans surgeries do NOT lower suicide rates ten years after the fact, but you'll probably deny that those
Well first of all, I would never suggest that a properly-conducted study was "invalid," even if it produced results that might conflict with my current interpretation and understanding of gender dysphoria
But you're mentioning studies regarding trans surgeries specifically, and something like 2/3 of trans people don't even get any kind of "gender affirming" surgery in the first place. So that data is pretty limited if you're trying to draw conclusions about the efficacy of transition as a whole. I feel like you're maybe the type of person to read someone else's interpretation of one or more scientific studies instead of actually reading them yourself, because imo otherwise there's really no way you would have come to that conclusion unless you were actively seeking it. There are also plenty of recent studies that suggest that rates of "regret" pertaining to transition are quite low (not that I'm necessarily asserting that I believe this to clearly reflect reality, I'm just providing it as a counterpoint)
If you were to actually read any studies about trans suicide rates yourself, you'd perhaps note that not only are pretty much all of them are acknowledged by the researchers to have limitations, but they're also sometimes acknowledged to have multiple (and even conflicting) interpretations. Do you have any idea the amount of confounding variables that potentially come into play with this kind of research? There's so much **** that could potentially affect rates of suicide or suicidal ideation for a given population that they can't possibly account for
The only people who take the results of a single or even collection of these studies at face value are pretty much universally either just trying to push an agenda, or are too dumb and/or too emotional to use their critical thinking skills properly. From what I can tell, you maybe don't seem to be quite as concerned about knowledge or objective understanding as feeling like you're "on the right side of history" or whatever (remind you of anything else?)
Also, there is no "trans genocide" going on,
studies show the vast majority of those murdered are domestics
When people talk about "trans genocide," they're generally talking about this notion that hyperreligious right-wingers want to outlaw even HRT and social transition for adults, not like the actual mass slaying of trans-identifying people
And as to "overly emotional and significantly oversimplified takes"
isnt your side the one that created the phrase "would you rather have a dead son or a live daughter"?
This is my whole point in saying that - the fact that you think I have to wholly be on the "other side" just because I disagree with you about something. This is what propaganda does to people, it creates the whole "us and them" or "you're either with us or against us" attitudes. I'm clearly a lot more supportive of transgender people than you are, but I hate that "dead son" phrase just as much as you do for those exact reasons
This is why trans-related issues in particular just infuriate me - it seems like few people actually want to determine what's best for both gender dysphoric people and society as a whole, and many just want to sanctimoniously circlejerk and feel like they're fighting for good in the fight of "good vs evil"
This is revisionist history at best; society has long held significantly negative attitudes towards males who are markedly gender nonconforming in both behavior and appearance as a whole, regardless of whether or not they actually identify as transgender. So many people like to say "save the tomboys," when markedly feminine behavior in young boys has, up until quite recently, b
The primary value of social acceptance and inclusion is to prevent a potential catastrophic identity crisis in a young child. As you age, the probability of an overwhelming identity crisis decreases. Now, identity crises will still happen, but the chances that you become overwhelmed and shattered by it decreases. Exposure therapy is real.
The fear of a catastrophic identity crisis persists longer than your actual ability to face it. This is why social acceptance and inclusion are elevated as the highest moral values among a segment of people, especially women. The fear causes infantilization.
Suicidal ideation can often be associated with this fear. There is a voice that would rather you kill yourself than risk going down the path of deep identity crisis.
Once the door to suicidal ideation is opened, acceptance and inclusion have ever diminishing value. This idea that acceptance and inclusion are a lock on the door of suicidal ideation is false. Putting all your eggs in this basket seems to be causing a moral panic when reality checks it, causing unhelpful and unhinged behavior.
Affirming and identifying with a more fundamental identity than a gender identity is the way forward.
