Seems like movement away from NLHE
This is particularly true at higher stakes. There seems like much more PLO. At the Aria now in the Series, about half the tables are PLO. 15 years ago, there was hardly any PLO at the Series. PLO was popular in Europe and in some areas of the south. There are also bomb pot tables at the WSOP. There is more 5-card PLO, particularly in Maryland. Limit holdem seems to still be declining, but mixed games seem to be increasing. Also, limit 5-card O8 seems to be increasing.
I would assume part of this is that many both pro and amateur players don't want to play against people using computer-based GTO approaches in NLHE. There is almost no public high stakes NLHE, presumably partly due to solvers. More complicated games seem popular for various reasons.
I've noticed a lot more Big O games. Nlh is becoming too solved.
This can't be a serious post
Once you go 4 cards, its hard to go back to just 2!
Imagine NLH where people still treated ATo like the nuts, and nobody ever folded 54s.
You could argue PLO is alot simpler
Card/hand values matter alot more. less bluffing.. Alternative way to say it = pots can get substantial pretty fast. Easy to get pot committed. Made hand vs 1 or more draw or multi-draw
I would note PLO is just more fun.. Seems like around stressful tourneys that might be good... No idea why"this year is different"
You could argue PLO is alot simpler
Card/hand values matter alot more. less bluffing.. Alternative way to say it = pots can get substantial pretty fast. Easy to get pot committed. Made hand vs 1 or more draw or multi-draw
this is what i like about PLO...people think its less complex..
to an extend that is true but you can go into a lot of DEEP rabbit holes which make you a better player
especially in situations where one person goes all in just cuz they have an OESD
compared to someone who calls an all in with an OESD + back door flush draw + 2 pair with full boat potential
I believe that he's posting seriously. But what he's seeing is through a very specific lense. There's definitely not an overall movement away from NLHE and longterm holdem is the game that'll last forever because PLO will probably end up just converging to everyone playing blockers correctly or something of that sort. Look at zoom pool, reg table pools at decent stakes where you start to see stuff not running, and it's mostly NL for a reason.
extent*
sorry OCD kicking in and i cant edit...
Nl is a boring dirt game.
For people who want to gamble including losing players plo is a way better game.
Win rates for good players are also higher in plo- actual good players not people who think watching Netflix and waiting for AA and KK in NL is poker.
Swings are much bigger which keeps a lot of brokish "pros" away.
Go into a poker room at 2am and it sounds like a morgue- except the people playing plo laughing and drinking.
I don't think it ever takes over nl bc a lot of poker players are risk averse pussies but it's definitely grown a lot in the last decade.
I believe that he's posting seriously. But what he's seeing is through a very specific lense. There's definitely not an overall movement away from NLHE and longterm holdem is the game that'll last forever because PLO will probably end up just converging to everyone playing blockers correctly or something of that sort. Look at zoom pool, reg table pools at decent stakes where you start to see stuff not running, and it's mostly NL for a reason.
Zoom pool of people playing a bunch of tables and snap getting a new hand the second they fold has less than nothing to do with live poker.
I believe that he's posting seriously. But what he's seeing is through a very specific lense. There's definitely not an overall movement away from NLHE and longterm holdem is the game that'll last forever because PLO will probably end up just converging to everyone playing blockers correctly or something of that sort. Look at zoom pool, reg table pools at decent stakes where you start to see stuff not running, and it's mostly NL for a reason.
I dont think PLO will suffer the same as NLHE did in terms of people getting good..
in NLHE, its really easy to nut peddle and play ABC poker.
In PLO, people will always either A.) get a set and continue playing and being a long term losing player or B.) suck out or C.) call with weak flushes & straights or D.) just plan want to gamble
And now 5 card PLO is becoming more popular
And 5 card PLO is what I said above x10
Of course I was serious. It seems like a major trend worth discussing. As I mentioned, not just PLO, but 5-card PLO, PLO8, all bomb pot games, mixed games, and limit 5-card O8 are increasing. If you look at the games at Aria and WSOP on Bravo, there is a big difference from a year or two ago. I notice it where I have been playing too. It depends on where though. At Commerce, there are still a lot of limit games and almost no PLO. I am not sure why LA players are more cautious.
The other poster mentioned OESD. The first thing I learned in the only bad PLO book that was available was an OESD isn't much. You want a wrap in Omaha.
Let me know what cash tables are going outside of wsop time.
I have been in and out of Vegas playing for about a year now, and have been there for most of the summer.
From the perspective from a 4-5-7 card game player, draw, stud, 8/b, 1 winner, limit and pot limit....who came from the NLHE world
1. There is almost no low stakes PLO going regularly outside of WSOP, exceptions are the mid stakes or higher games at Aria.
2. The players who you need on the table that want action, want to see flops, and over value draws, it seems, are moving away from LSNLHE, they have either moved up to 2/5 where they feel they can get the action "back", or win a significant pot when they suck out, have moved on to some form of Omaha (if they were 1/2 players), or have decided to get the rush from the pit.
3. In my times at 1/2 or 1/3 NLHE tables or tourneys in Vegas, the days of this type of line ([OESD], oop, Flop lead, check-raise big on brick turn) are gone, its so many "villians" with value hands who are checking the turn back in position, and even checking a safe river, to take down a pot. I attribute this to people learning, getting better (for these stakes), and the games at these limits becoming much harder to beat given a $7+ rake around town.
Random aside, but I also think that NLHE doesn't actually attract the same demographic of person that NLHE probably did for the last 20+ years. Poker at some point after the cowboy era turned into a social, and maybe communal game for the everyday working demo, involving food, drinking, needling etc. This could have overlapped the common man with the lets say white collar crowd, or even overlap them with the underworld as well. This would have fostered some conversation because these people would be less likely to interact in their everyday regiment. The following generations I think are less interested in the communal aspect of the game in the scope of "playing", but are more interested in the communal aspect of the game in the scope of "learning" or "winning". Essentially the younger generations would prefer not to play against others that they view as learned or informed, but instead study together and play against other less prepared players (with no intention of creating communal environment amongst the "fish", because the end goal is winning, for however long that may last). There is hardly any conversation at a 1/3 NLHE table, people afraid to give away a tell, or even speak loudly when announcing their action, afraid that their voice may crack. The amount of near silent "I'm all in"s I have heard is astounding. *I know this has been talked about for years as it pertains to the headphones, hoodies, shades, social aspects of the game.*
I think for now, the PLO tables (1/3 or 5/5) do NOT have this same feeling, it feels that the playing field is even (even if not), at least to the rec player, its less conversations that utilize unfamiliar poker theory language, or berating bad play "how could you...", the PLO table discussions might be about sports betting, podcast, music, etc.
Some % of this could be attributed to "running it twice" being almost standard in alotta low stakes PLO, and pretty much non existent in LSNLHE, at least in Vegas.
I mean, bad players with 4 cards do better than bad players with two cards. It's really that simple.
Once you go 4 cards, its hard to go back to just 2!
Imagine NLH where people still treated ATo like the nuts, and nobody ever folded 54s.
But then that also ATo had 45% vs your AKo and the 54s is nearly flipping vs your premiums, that's PLO :P
People are worse but the preflop equities are a lot thinner
As soft as PLO has been whenever I've played it, the thing that I love about NL and makes it fun for me just isn't there in PLO, when you see a flop/turn/river and you can form the picture of your overall range and how you want to split it across the various lines- maybe really great PLO players can do this but it seems infinitely more complex than NL in this regard, and so just can't get into it as much. It's fun to mix it up a bit and have the odd PLO session but its never pulled me in.
I do think there is an appetite for games beyond NLHE. I would like to see more availability of limit games and mixed games, as I think they are more inviting to new players compared to PLO.
But I also think that the mixed games being spread in Vegas right now are keeping new players away by insisting on mixes of 12-15 games, of which only like 1-2 of them a recreational player will have ever heard of.
The WSOP spreads lots of mixed game tournaments that are accessible and engaging to less experienced players, and these tournaments keep growing over the last several years. Why can’t cash games with these mixes keep up?
I do think there is an appetite for games beyond NLHE. I would like to see more availability of limit games and mixed games, as I think they are more inviting to new players compared to PLO.
But I also think that the mixed games being spread in Vegas right now are keeping new players away by insisting on mixes of 12-15 games, of which only like 1-2 of them a recreational player will have ever heard of.
The WSOP spreads lots of mixed game tournaments that are accessible and engaging to less exp
Because the mixed games regs are greedy and want to really take the tourists with weird games.
Is it 2009 again?
Wouldn't say that people are moving away from NLHE as much as the overall game of poker is becoming more popular as a whole - NL only getting more popular with all the new players
PLO hasn't had much support in Vegas in the past 8 years - Aria has been one of the rooms to embrace the different levels of stakes and allow more PLO than other places typically will - surprised more rooms don't try to build around other games outside NLHE. Rooms will cap the number of PLO games they allow to be open in favor of NL - I think people would be surprised how popular the great game really is in 2024
I think that lots of people want to play/try different types of games outside PLO/NL
