Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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About the raping, the left is at it again with the false equivalente of "rapes on both sides".
While it's clear that Israel soldiers tortured some prisoners with actions that are possibly rapi-ish, or outright rape depending on the semantic and the jurisdiction (insertion of stuff in the anus for ex), that's clearly not the message that passes when people write that the IDF committed a lot of rape.
What's clear is that the IDF didn't rape innocent palestinian women wantonly, while hamas did rape i
Hamas did not rape en masse. even the UN literally said there was no evidence of that.
and the Palestinian survivors are clearly not terrorists considering they were released.
As always, what in the hell are you people talking about? Nobody is lashing out unthinkingly. It's stupid and monstrous to try and eradicate the terrorists hellbent on destroying your entire population and country? Uh, okay. Well said and thanks for the very interesting points to consider. I appreciate the nuance!
It's not going to eradicate the terrorists. Not even after escalating much further.
You need enough nuance to realise that the military campaign is not a solution. Winning netanyahu's military battles is the very easy bit (and even that may be hard).
Even the UN, which is structurally allied with Hamas and fully against Israel to be clear, had to admit on 7 10 hamas raped israeli women en masse as reported multiple times in this thread with links to the UN report on the matter
why you referring to rape 'en masse' when your stated view is that there was NO RAPE on oct 7
the writer could not find a single report at any of the rape centers or hospitals or hotlines in all of Israel. not even talking about a victim coming forward, just a confirmation that a report occurred or someone was treated. not a single one.
there is no evidence.
why are you guys so desperate to wish that rape happened on that day? its really weird.
no evidence, not a single report, not one victim.
victor, comment
If I were indulging in your nonsense about antisemitism, it would be for supporting such disastrous actions. I don't because it's nonsense. I just strongly disagree with you.
How about you indulge me in actually explaining what your stance is? I think it's anti-Semitic to:
- demand Israel entertain endless ceasefires despite Hamas' repeated violations of them
- blame Israel for civilian casualties caused by Hamas' human shield tactics
- not hold Arabs accountable for stopping violence against Israelis
- excuse Hamas' actions and not place responsibility on them
- never demand other countries do the same (since the requests are insane)
- only consider the lives of the Arabs causing the issues when referencing "disastrous" actions
Can you explain why it's nonsense that I consider these anti-Semitic viewpoints? And can you tell me what you think Israel should do if not try and severely cripple Hamas? They'll never fully eradicate them so even trying is stupid?
Uh, your viewpoint is that my bullet-points above are nonsense, but refuse to explain why. Standard for your end, I guess. Again, I ask, what the hell are you suggesting they do then? What wouldn't you criticize as a response that doesn't demand they do something you'd never ask of anyone else?
It doesn't seem very disastrous that Hamas has been severely limited in their ability to conduct terror to me. But that's because I'm considering the lives of the Israeli's they're trying to end. Your apparent failure to consider these lives is what I'd consider anti-Semitic, but if you claim you do consider them, I'm asking for information to elucidate that viewpoint since I don't see it.
Hamas did not rape en masse. even the UN literally said there was no evidence of that.
and the Palestinian survivors are clearly not terrorists considering they were released.
Uh, what? "Even the UN" is already ridiculous because the UN is a terrible org for reporting on this. They absolutely found evidence of multiple events of gang rape at different locations. So what do you mean by "en masse?" Is this a semantic game you're playing to ignore reality that genocidal rape occurred?
Based on the information gathered by the mission team from multiple and independent sources, there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations.
At the Nova music festival and its surroundings, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of sexual violence took place with victims being subjected to rape and/or gang rape and then killed or killed while being raped. Credible sources described finding 5 murdered individuals, mostly women, whose bodies were naked from their waist down – and some totally naked – tied with their hands behind their backs, many of whom were shot in the head. On Road 232, credible information based on witness accounts describe an incident of the rape of two women by armed elements. Other reported instances of rape could not be verified in the time allotted. The mission team also found a pattern of bound naked or partially naked bodies from the waist down, in some cases tied to structures including trees and poles, along Road 232. In kibbutz Re’im, the mission team further verified an incident of the rape of a woman outside of a bomb shelter and heard of other allegations of rape that could not yet be verified
They're not my views so I wont bother to defend them
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc...
There are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence — including rape and gang-rape — occurred across multiple locations of Israel and the Gaza periphery during the attacks on 7 October 2023, a senior United Nations official reported to the Security Council today
[...]
“What I witnessed in Israel were scenes of unspeakable violence perpetrated with shocking brutality,” Ms. Patten recalled.
[...]
The team also found convincing information that sexual violence was committed against hostages, and has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may still be ongoing against those in captivity.
Probably will get mentioned that a lot of this couldn't be verified 100%, as the article mentions.
thats from the Patten report which was not as investigative and detailed as the subsequent report. (Patten had plenty of other problems as well)
What you're doing is trying to cast doubt on the claims without actually addressing them or providing evidence backing them. What problems were there that disprove the existence of mass genocidal rape committed by Hamas terrorists? The evidence you've provided only corroborates it, not refutes it.
Per your linked report:
140. The Special Representative of the Secretary-General (SRSG) on Sexual Violence in Conflict, Pramila Patten, found after a mission to Israel in January to February 2024 reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred at several locations, including in the form of rape and gang rape. The SRSG also found credible circumstantial information indicative of some forms of sexual violence, including genital mutilation, sexualized torture, or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.
They corroborate the Patten report that you're suggesting wasn't as investigative or as detailed? What are you even saying, Victor? This supports the rape that occurred en masse by Hamas terrorists. They killed nearly everyone they came into contact with who wasn't taken hostage, so why are you acting as if rape crisis centers has any relevance? Are you another one of those "repeat strawman arguments as red herrings" people, i.e., repeating the 40 beheaded babies claim that never was?
300+ pages and people are still pretending these lunatics didn't sexually violate their victims? Christ.
yes victor regularly links stuff that proves the opposite of his claims and keeps doing it lol.
I can understand that he is probably trained and accostumed to talk with people that never actually read sources so he usually gets away with that
i assume that its quite difficult psychologically to a) proudly declare your support for the hamas terrorists and, simultaneously, b) accept the fact that they did a bunch of raping on oct 7
thus we get certain posters (its not just victor) stating that there is no evidence that any rape occurred
It literally says they could not verify any of the rape allegations and then goes on to say the Israelis obstructed the investigation and did not allow access to victims and evidence. and they found some presented evidence to be false.
it doesnt get any more damning that that.
What you're doing is trying to cast doubt on the claims without actually addressing them or providing evidence backing them. What problems were there that disprove the existence of mass genocidal rape committed by Hamas terrorists? The evidence you've provided only corroborates it, not refutes it.
Per your linked report:
They corroborate the Patten report that you're suggesting wasn't as investigative or as detailed? What are you even saying, Victor? This supports the rape that occurred en masse
they dont corroborate the Patten report. in fact, if you read the portion that I quoted, they directly contradict it.
i assume that its quite difficult psychologically to a) proudly declare your support for the hamas terrorists and, simultaneously, b) accept the fact that they did a bunch of raping on oct 7
thus we get certain posters (its not just victor) stating that there is no evidence that any rape occurred
Yes, this is the cognitive dissonance that permeates every "ceasefire, NOW!" NPC in existence. It makes it impossible to discuss anything. It's the same silliness that prevents them from recognizing that Jews are indigenous to the region, not Arabs.
I won't waste anymore time with Victor since he's operating in an entirely different reality. The mental block on acknowledging the rape perpetrated by genocidal terrorists isn't conducive to any meaningful discussion. Cheers.
- Gender-based violence Introduction and overview
133. The following section includes crimes that have gender elements, whether in terms of motive, form, implementation or impact on the victim. It includes acts of violence and harms directed at those with an inferior place in the gender hierarchy, and as such reflects an abuse of power by the male perpetrator and a disregard for the special considerations that women have in international law.
134. The Commission documented evidence of sexual violence in several locations in southern Israel on 7 October. This evidence includes testimonies from credible witnesses and images of victims’ bodies displaying indications of some form of sexual violence. The Commission identified a pattern of sexual violence that has been corroborated by the digital evidence it collected and preserved.
135. Reliable witness accounts obtained by the Commission describe bodies that had been undressed, in some incidents with exposed genitals, as well as other indications of abuse, such as their hands and/or feet being tied, indicating they had been detained before their deaths, the position of the body, for example with legs spread or bent over, and signs of struggle or violence on the body, such as stab wounds, burns, lacerations and abrasions. The patterns in these witness accounts are consistent with digital footage collected and preserved by the Commission, including four victims found undressed from the waist down, as well as four cases where the bodies of victims were displayed partially undressed while being mistreated.
136. Further corroborating its findings, the Commission also received reports that many bodies taken to the Shura camp showed signs indicative of sexual violence. Some bodies were completely or partially undressed with signs of considerable violence and struggle. One witness described to the Commission receiving a body of a girl around 13 years old who was naked with signs of violence to the stomach and broken legs.
137. Bodies of women were found completely or partially burnt in several locations. One witness told the Commission that many bodies of men and women received at Shura were burnt in the genital area. In some cases, there were indications that gasoline had been used to set genitals on fire. In one case the Commission obtained video footage of the body of a woman who was set on fire with gasoline from the waist down. The Commission could not determine in these cases whether the fire was ignited before or after death. Some of the bodies were burned beyond recognition and/or decapitated.
you arent wrong that I operate in reality and with reading comprehension. its a tough burden for me to bear sometimes.
So when your own source affirms that rape and sexual assault occurred en masse, what part of that is supportive of your position that nothing happened?
153. One witness, who arrived shortly after the attack, described to the Commission seeing the bodies of three women, located at the eastern and western parking areas, bearing signs indicative of some form of sexual violence. All three women had been completely undressed from the waist down and two were positioned with the legs spread apart. According to the witnesses, two of the bodies displayed signs of considerable violence. One of the women had multiple gunshot wounds to her thighs and legs. The other woman had been burnt in the face, according to the witness likely as a result of a liquid accelerant having been applied. The Commission reviewed video and photo evidence from the Nova site which corroborated the witness’s statements. The digital evidence shows the bodies of women found partially undressed and with signs of considerable violence
Maybe my reading comprehension sucks, but what part of this spells out that sexual violence reported by Patten isn't corroborated by this commission? Dumb it down for me, buddy.
154. The Commission also documented the statement of a witness who described seeing the body of a man with signs of rape. According to the witness, the victim was in his twenties and had multiple gunshot wounds to his head and back. The victim was found with his trousers pulled down, his underwear ripped and a gun inserted into his anus. The Commission found the testimony credible but was not able to corroborate the information.
Classic tall tale by the Zionists, of course. They weren't able to corroborate it, meaning what? They didn't have a video of some poor guy's corpse with a glock shoved in his rectum? Normal people would read this statement and recognize that it's almost certainly true, but near impossible to fully corroborate (despite the fact they found it credible). I guess those with supreme reading comprehension just understand it as Hasbra BS or whatever?
Why is the Commission saying they have "identified a pattern of sexual violence that has been corroborated by the digital evidence it collected and preserved" if they haven't?
It's not going to eradicate the terrorists. Not even after escalating much further.
You need enough nuance to realise that the military campaign is not a solution. Winning netanyahu's military battles is the very easy bit (and even that may be hard).
For the one millionth time, what’s your proposal?
Violence hasn’t been the perfect solution but historically it has worked a lot better for Israel.
So when your own source affirms that rape and sexual assault occurred en masse, what part of that is supportive of your position that nothing happened?
Maybe my reading comprehension sucks, but what part of this spells out that sexual violence reported by Patten isn't corroborated by this commission? Dumb it down for me, buddy.
Classic tall tale by the Zionists, of course. They weren't able to corroborate it, meaning what? They didn't have a video of some poor guy's corpse with a glock shoved in h
who are these witnesses? why are the qualified to reach these conclusions? why was there no forensic evidence taken? ofc its BS.
remember the NYT ran an entire story about a women who "looked like she was raped" and it turned out she absolutely was not.
my source specifically said that they could not verify any allegations of rape and then accused the Israelis of obstructing the investigation and providing false evidence.
lmao, that's me quoting your own source, buddy. Maybe ask them? The entire document makes it pretty clear that sexual violence occurred en masse. But ok, thanks for confirming that you are illiterate and/or disingenuous. "Why don't I have a video of then removing a gun from some corpses anus?!"
Last chance for you to answer this: why is the Commission saying they have "identified a pattern of sexual violence that has been corroborated by the digital evidence it collected and preserved" if they haven't?
For the one millionth time, what’s your proposal?
Violence hasn’t been the perfect solution but historically it has worked a lot better for Israel.
I've addressed this many times. No-one has a solution at the moment. The miltary option is not a solution either. Just attacking people for not having soem magic solution is ridiculous
To address horrors like the 7th October. My approach is as always a) put great efforts into prevent it happening with intelligence etc and b) to assume a) will fail at times so have serious defensive measures in place, c) keep working on political solutions even though we dont know how that will work
Similarly with all such threats and it's damned hard. Israel is a very tough spot that netanyahu has made far worse. No one can wish an easy answer into existence but that's no excuse for monstrous & stupid ones.
Yeah, like I said, your response is to just demand Israel do nothing and offer nothing tangible or tenable. Another NPC offering worthless platitudes. Israel needs to prevent another 10/7, but not with any meaningful measure that involves destroying Hamas' ability to conduct another 10/7.
Beautiful, champ. Very helpful stuff. *eyeballs roll out of socket*
Sometimes nothing is much better than stupid when it comes to actions
But it shouldn't be nothing. Israel under decent leadership would have worked on building an international consensus. It's very hard now and going to take a long time to undo the damage done to israel
lmao, that's me quoting your own source, buddy. Maybe ask them? The entire document makes it pretty clear that sexual violence occurred en masse. But ok, thanks for confirming that you are illiterate and/or disingenuous. "Why don't I have a video of then removing a gun from some corpses anus?!"
Last chance for you to answer this:
sexual violence is not the same as rape. they were very explicit on rape. they are using precise language.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Israel does nothing. Israel is actively working against itself at this point, and is running a recruitment campaign for Hamas.
Israel should withdraw from Gaza, if Hezbollah continues attacking Israel after that then Israel has far more support for invading southern Lebanon, plus they can actually mobilize a force capable of doing something.
After withdrawing from Gaza, Israel needs to figure out who is going to police Gaza as it rebuilds. Israel can focus on solidifying its defenses since they've already made it inevitable that another Oct 7 will be attempted. Israel can also figure out how their intelligence messed up so badly.
Nothing like a handful of extremists discussing rape and what rape actually is. One insane person claiming Hamas didn't commit rape even though Hamas both condones and encourages it. This isn't new. One slightly less insane person justifying inserting objects in the anuses of prisoners and how that might not be rape but rape-ish.
Just incredible.
