Israel/Palestine thread

Sexual violence absolutely includes rape. The source in question mentions them in the same sentence:

What do you think "War crime of rape and other forms of sexual violence" means when it says "and OTHER FORMS of sexual violence", Victor?

But okay, so your contention is that sexual violence happened en masse, but rape didn't, because they call it sexual violence sometimes? And because technically they don't know if instances like the gun that was inserted into the guy's anus happened ante-mortem or post-mortem so they can't classify it as rape or not?

This is your hill, dude? What is wrong with you?

Bluegrassplayer,

The whole "recruitment campaign for Hamas" argument is silly and makes no sense. If someone is going to keep trying to kill me for no reason, I'm not worried about giving them a reason when I retaliate or defend myself. It's like when MMA fighters are like, "NOW YOU MADE IT PERSONAL!" as if they previously weren't going to REALLY try and KO the other guy or something. These imbeciles believe the perfect person was their child marrying warlord who ordered the beheading of infidels himself. The Hadith outlines the destruction of Jews by Muslims by Mohammed himself. There IS no balance the Jews can have to remain in the region and it's insane to suggest they need to be more polite to their genocidal neighbors.

No, they shouldn't withdraw from Gaza. Withdrawing from Gaza and then suggesting they figure out who can police it? Uh, yeah, just invite one of the surrounding Arab countries or something? No, they should stay and babysit the children with stronger restrictions on what they can have. They left them alone and got what in return? 86767 rockets launched at their civilians and 10/7.

And he is absolutely suggesting nothing, not that they DO nothing, but suggesting nothing. This ain't Cool Hand Luke, man.

I'm definitely not suggesting nothing and BGP is quite right. If it seems like nothing to you it's because the first step is to stop going the wrong way

Should be Israel as it helps rebuild Gaza. In an ideal world Saudi steps in and sort of governs the area till a peaceful regime is installed but this isn't very likely. Don't think the rest of the Western world is going to get involved.

Considering Hamas sympathizers are at an all time high, which funnily enough is something you're dealing with right now, it's pretty obvious you're wrong.

You quite literally have suggested nothing, dude. Israel needs to prevent another 10/7, but not in the manner they currently are, which is killing the people who are actively plotting to carry them out. Again, amazing strategy. Thanks.

How am I wrong? Because Useful Idiots in America block traffic in gentrified communities? Who cares, man. No, I'm not wrong. As I said, their hatred of Jews and Zionism is rooted in their Islamic faith. Israel has extended an olive branch 355957 times and all they've gotten in return is an entire population of religious lunatics who still want to kill them.

Oh, no, they're going to "create more terrorists" by destroying their ability to kill them? Great. I'd rather have 20,000 neutered religious maniacs trying to kill me than 10,000 with actual capability. If they want to live in the stone age and keep getting bombed by Israel, I'm happy to keep sending tax dollars to the only democratic nation in the Middle East. It's not even a difficult f'ing decision. Until they can behave like reasonable adults and not the insane death cult they are, why should they even have a seat at the adult's table? They shouldn't. chezlaw admonishing Israel while offering nothing helpful is not something they're concerned with anymore.

its not my contention. its literally the contention of the UN report from the evidence they gathered.

my contention is that anything from witnesses or Israeli officials without accompanying verifiable evidence should be disregarded entirely given all of the lies they have promoted.

How am I wrong? Now I'm not wrong. What a guy

So long rambling short, you have admitted they are able to recruit more they just might not be as strong as before now. Boy that was unnecessarily hard.

No I haven't but thanks anyway.

By this logic we should ignore literally everything and everyone. Maybe there isn't even a war going on in Gaza. I haven't been myself to confirm so how can I be sure it's real?

the 'killing one enemy just breeds two more' thing is obviously ahistorical, and is borne out of the american experience of losing wars in vietnam and afghanistan

like we're talking about a psuedo-government which has the goal of holocaust 2.0 embedded within its founding charter, and we're worried about potential radicalisation

if you actually want to deradicalise gaza, step one obviously has to be the elimination of the hamas TERRORISTS

No, that's me playing devil's advocate with your position (one that I consider idiotic). In reality, I don't think it matters, because it doesn't. They will keep trying to kill Jews and I think bombing them farther back to the stone age than they were already in is a better deterrent. The change has to come from within.

"Me and my friends are going to try and kill you forever. If you kill us to prevent that, we'll just tell more of our friends!" Uh, okay? Again, the bigotry of low expectations rears its ugly head again. You don't think there's a chance for the younger generation to say, "Hey, it's actually reasonable they try and kill us to prevent us from killing them. Maybe we should focus on REBUILDING OUR PATCH OF LAND and making peace with the Israelis so our quality of life improves" or what?

1. Destroy the terrorists at the helm.
2. Work on educating the younger generation to work towards peace.

The first step 100% has to happen NOW for the safety of Israel. The second step is admittedly difficult since I can't even deradicalize Western-educated American friends of mine. But that doesn't preclude #1. What a silly stance.

You know that Americans can and do vacation in Japan right?

It's not silly, as betraisefold explained.

You are conflating all of Gaza with Hamas, which is not the case. Hamas is an extremist group, the people who committed October 7 is an extremist group within that extremist group. Israel is driving people into that group.

Israel left Gaza alone and left no one there to police anything. People are suggesting fixing the latter part. In the event that no one is willing to help police Gaza, then Gaza will not get the necessary aid required to rebuild, so that accomplishes what you're suggesting anyways, but at least Israel can (maybe) begin to restore its image.

I think that USA can get some countries to do it. I'm not sure for what reason you think that Israel should help rebuild, but I'm pretty sure I would agree. Unfortunately I don't think it's likely at all, even less likely than getting other countries to help police Gaza. Israel doing any policing is never going to work for multiple reasons.

Even though I fully agree I also think it's nonsense if you think the deaths of all the innocent fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters won't add to further radicalization not to mention we 1 know Hamas has used this to radicalize its people and 2 Hamas sympathy is at an all-time high because of all the violence.

Not entirely sure how you deny these 2.

bgp

i assume we agree that one of hamas' goals is to destroy the state of israel

with that in mind, do you think gazans can deradicalise in any meaningful sense for as long as hamas are their leaders

there are ways to assess credibility but in general you should be wary of any claim yes.

Algeria, Afghanistan many times, India, South Africa. since WW2 colonial powers have tried to kill tons of people to stay in power and maintain oppression and extraction but it didnt work. it might work this time as it seems the Empire is willing and able to kill everyone there.

Hamas is widely supported by the Gazan population. Hamas is the government they democratically elected and Fatah is no better. Hamas support goes UP when they attack Israel. Plenty of civilians are just as bad as members of Hamas and they participated in 10/7 on their own (and harbor hostages).

It's an absolute fallacy that there's some clear delineation between Hamas and civilians where this tiny, fringe minority extremist group is being conflated with them. LOL, "the people who committed October 7 is an extremist group within that extremist group." No, you just have no clue what you're talking about, I'm afraid.

LOL, people ITT unironically blaming Israel for creating terrorists by killing terrorists. Okay, they should just peacefully send a fax to Hamas to stop trying to murder them, I guess. *eyes continue to roll out of skull*

In before they falsely claim their charter has been disavowed and is totally superseded by the extremely reasonable 2017 addendum. "See, they even call them "Zionists" and not Jews!"

The first part is quite obviously wrong as there's still war after never ending violence for a 100 years. I obviously agree with the last part. Only a peaceful regime working with Israel and not against Israel will result in peace in that region. This I think is undeniable.

no doubt

this is true for literally every war ever fought though, isnt it? losing wars really sucks

I agree that is Hamas' stated goal. As I've mentioned before, I believe Hamas should be given a role in government on the condition that they drop that goal. This is enforceable for several reasons which I've stated several times now:

Donors are not going to help Gaza rebuild if October 7 2.0 occurs and the donors investment is turned into rubble again.

There are (were?) political leaders who were happy to live their luxurious life without actively attempting to destroy Israel, and if they are put in a position where their luxurious lives are threatened by the military wing's desire to enact October 7 2.0 then the political wing has a major incentive to prevent that from happening.

Over half the population was born into this regime and 99% of that population aka the youth have been radicalized by Hamas since they could walk and Hamas is very clear on what they will do to anyone who speaks out against them. Which btw, they have done, multiple times. This is called oppression, just incase you've never heard of it.

I'd argue the same about you. Contrary to popular belief. Most of the Gazans just want to live a peaceful quiet life. Not one where their governing body radicalizes their kids and kills anyone who speaks up against them and then starts wars that ends up in the endless deaths of these innocent and peaceful civilians.

there's no way back for hamas and their leaders after oct 7

even if they stated that they were dropping their goal of the destruction of israel, and were sincere about it, the israelis would not take them at their word and nor should they

its going to have to be a new group of palestinian leaders which takes this forward

No, it isn't quite obviously wrong. Their ability to murder Jews is proportionally decreased with the amount of destruction Israel inflicts. Look at the correlation between suicide bombings in Israel with the construction of their border walls (what idiots call an "open air prison" or wall around Gaza).

As I said, nothing is going to quell their insatiable desire to murder Jews as long as Hamas is at the helm. It is rooted in Islamic faith because Mohammed commands it. They are essentially the SS, man. There is no reasoning with a group of people that want to destroy your country so stop acting like there is. It's embarrassing to suggest this. Until they can re-educate the population, which is a long shot, they need to cripple those in power from killing them. The kind of people who are going to become terrorists after Israel drops leaflets to let them survive infrastructure bombing aren't really high on my "they'll learn to be reasonable against Jews" list.

Prison doesn't completely drop the recidivism rate, does it? And being cavity searched doesn't make inmates love authority anymore, does it? But my neighborhood is still safer when we confine violent criminals to a secure space, isn't it? And correctional officers are still safer after having searched the inmates for weapons in their ass (although Victor would probably consider a gun in the ass a rite of passage for a Hamas captive).

What you are suggesting is indeed silly and nonsensical.

No one is suggesting Israel take them at their word.

lmao

"The entire population has been radicalized by genocidal terrorists since they could walk and Hamas murders anyone who opposes them. But despite what I just said, the majority of Gazans totally aren't exactly how I just described them!"

Schrodinger's Terrorist, I guess. But I'll always love the whole, "we all just want the same things, man" stance. JK, it's idiotic and nonsensical, too. You are describing a situation that lends support to Israel's current strategy, by the way.