Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Probably nor with Netanyahu in power. We work with what we've got. I'd agree a decent leader would have been working for a political solution that excluded hamas.
I'm afraid the naivety if anything is yours. We're all unhappy with the outcome of so much of your historical violence. If only we had killed so many more .... just kill a few more terrorist and others, just a few more ...
I have pointed to multiple historical instances with Israel used overwhelming violence and successfully deterred violence to a very large extent.
Many in this thread continue to wishcast and handwave. Ceasefire at all costs and then hope for the best. Multiple people in the thread have asked repeatedly about what you propose and it's always just "ceasefire first then talk."
That's exactly what Hamas wants and is asking for, because that's what they need to exact even more violence on Israel and eventually wipe the Jews out in the region. But many people in this thread simply refuse to acknowledge supporting such an unconditional ceasefire is tantamount to supporting Hamas' terrorist activities.
yeah man ukraine are def #winning
where are you getting that idea?
israel definitely seem to be struggling as well. sounds like hamas might be ~fully operational, and israel are definitely taking a lot of casualties (especially when you count wounded). it also came out in a supreme court thing that they were running out of tanks, ammo, etc. but you're right, you won't hear much about any of this from the western propaganda outlets. i'm not saying that hamas are "winning" or anything, but they se
What are some examples of these western propaganda outlets? What are some of the unbiased sources that you rely on for your info?
I have pointed to multiple historical instances with Israel used overwhelming violence and successfully deterred violence to a very large extent.
Many in this thread continue to wishcast and handwave. Ceasefire at all costs and then hope for the best. Multiple people in the thread have asked repeatedly about what you propose and it's always just "ceasefire first then talk."
That's exactly what Hamas wants and is asking for, because that's what they need to exact even more violence on Israel and ev
And yet here we are.
There is no doubt violence can work effectively for a short time. Much greater military powers can win military battles easily. Then the reality that the problems are usually far worse dominates.
I'm not a pacifist because despite your view I an not in fact at all naive. Sometimes miltary action is required to pursue a polical solution - but Israel dont have one. Netnayhau is making it much worse and mroe dangerous for Israel depsite the short term harrahs.
Yes, here we are.
And yet where we are is far better, for Israel and the Jews living in Israel at least, than what Hamas and Israel's Arab neighbors wanted.
Nobody is happy. And yet, nobody has a "peaceful" path forward that doesn't involve telling Israel to just lie down and take it like a champ.
Chez I think you mistaken what happens when the USA tries to "export democracy" with what Israel is trying to accomplish these days.
Israel isn't trying to "export democracy" in Gaza. It is simply trying to nullify a threat.
And they aren't going to leave until the threat is no more (unless the USA forces them to).
Think of Afghanistan: until Americans had plenty of soldiers there, terrorists had a hard time organizing there to hit foreign countries. That's about it. It worked for that purpose.
There is no political solution when dealing with fully irrational people, which terrorists willing to wear suicide vests (among other things) clearly are
Yes, here we are.
And yet where we are is far better, for Israel and the Jews living in Israel at least, than what Hamas and Israel's Arab neighbors wanted.
Nobody is happy. And yet, nobody has a "peaceful" path forward that doesn't involve telling Israel to just lie down and take it like a champ.
I wouldn't just 'lie down' as you pout it but none of your arguments could possibly justify doing so much harm to Israel. You can disagree it's making it worse and more dangerous for Israel if that's what you think. If so we're going to strongly disagree.
I have pointed to multiple historical instances with Israel used overwhelming violence and successfully deterred violence to a very large extent.
Many in this thread continue to wishcast and handwave. Ceasefire at all costs and then hope for the best. Multiple people in the thread have asked repeatedly about what you propose and it's always just "ceasefire first then talk."
That's exactly what Hamas wants and is asking for, because that's what they need to exact even more violence on Israel and ev
The idea that Hamas could wipe the Jews out of the region doesnÂ’t seem credible based on anything we know about the capabilities of Hamas.
10/7 happened because of an intelligence failure, not Hamas overwhelming a prepared Israel defense. 10/7 was HamasÂ’ best effort at a time when Israel had turned a blind eye to them, and yet they didnÂ’t wipe the Jews out of the region. The ratio of Israelis to Palestinians killed since 10/7 further suggests Hamas is in no way capable of wiping the Jews out of the region, currently.
Even Iran, which is capable, doesnÂ’t seem up for it because it would be suicide.
Yes, a ceasefire would allow Hamas to regroup and plan for another 10/7 style attack. But that will be much harder to pull off in the near future, until a time that Israel lets its guard down again. In the meanwhile, Israel could shore up its defenses and fix its intelligence problems so thatÂ’s less likely to happen.
Even if Hamas pull off another 10/7 scale attack in a decade from now, thatÂ’s still not wiping the Jews from the region and I donÂ’t understand at all, why we should tolerate many many multiple greater Palestinian civilian deaths to prevent possible future Israeli civilian deaths that are almost guaranteed to be on a much smaller scale if it were to happen.
How exactly is Hamas going to be able to wipe the Jews out of the region if a ceasefire were to happen now?
Chez I think you mistaken what happens when the USA tries to "export democracy" with what Israel is trying to accomplish these days.
Israel isn't trying to "export democracy" in Gaza. It is simply trying to nullify a threat.
And they aren't going to leave until the threat is no more (unless the USA forces them to).
Think of Afghanistan: until Americans had plenty of soldiers there, terrorists had a hard time organizing there to hit foreign countries. That's about it. It worked for that purpose.
The
It's not just gaza - there are multiple fronts.
Isarael can't leave. it's going to have to deal with the realities. It can't **** off like the usa does and leave others to bear the consequences
The idea that Hamas could wipe the Jews out of the region doesnÂ’t seem credible based on anything we know about the capabilities of Hamas.
10/7 happened because of an intelligence failure, not Hamas overwhelming a prepared Israel defense. 10/7 was HamasÂ’ best effort at a time when Israel had turned a blind eye to them, and yet they didnÂ’t wipe the Jews out of the region. The ratio of Israelis to Palestinians killed since 10/7 further suggests Hamas is in no way capable of wi
no, israel should not tolerate an occasional flare-up from the rapist murderers next door in exchange for fewer deaths overall. and by the way, nor would you
as an aside - while i grant you that a ceasefire would pay significant immediate dividends in the form of fewer short term deaths, i'm unconvinced that allowing hamas to go back to degrading gazan society in pursuit of dead jews represents the greater good, which i think is instead served by a change in palestinian leadership
depends on who you ask
for example, i think the official line is that no hamas terrorists were killed in the strike which turned that deif guy, his second in command, and thirty or so of his good pals into tomato juice, so i suspect they may not be totally honest in their reporting
It's not just gaza - there are multiple fronts.
Isarael can't leave. it's going to have to deal with the realities. It can't **** off like the usa does and leave others to bear the consequences
It probably has some idea about creating a huge wave of refugees fleeing extermination that will be someone else’s “problem”, and redeveloping the area as luxury beachfront property for the international multi millionaire class. That’s if all goes according to their plan and Iran doesn’t say hold on a moment.
LONDON — Iran "will bear responsibility" for any attacks against Israel which "would further escalate regional tensions" and jeopardize the chance of a cease-fire and hostage-release deal, the leaders of the U.K., France and Germany warned in a statement today.
U.K. Prime Minister Keir Starmer, French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz called "on Iran and its allies to refrain from attacks," and said they agree with mediators the U.S., Egypt and Qatar that there “can be no further delay” in resuming negotiations between Israel and Hamas on a cease-fire and hostage release.
Hamas on Sunday cast doubt about whether it would participate in a meeting this Thursday called by the mediators for negotiations on a cease-fire and hostage-release deal, as Gaza’s reported death toll nears 40,000. Israel said last week it would send a team of negotiators to the meeting.
The joint statement from the U.K., France and Germany came after Axios reported late Sunday that Israeli intelligence believes an Iranian attack is likely within days.
It probably has some idea about creating a huge wave of refugees fleeing extermination that will be someone else’s “problem”, and redeveloping the area as luxury beachfront property for the international multi millionaire class. That’s if all goes according to their plan and Iran doesn’t say hold on a moment.
It's not like there is a lack of mediterrean sea-front space to develop, there are thousands of km of coasts which can be developed for "the international multi milionaire class", in far safer areas as well, if such demand existed, unfortunately it doesn't exist.
I mean of the many conspiracies around the topic, the idea of Gaza being some prime land of high value in the hands of developers , and that being the reason for the current war, is probably the most insane one.
Egypt mediterranean coast alone is close to 1000 km. Tourism there is pretty middle class with recent developments toward that. The fiscality for foreigners is pretty good (no tax on income generated outside egypt).
No capital gain taxes at all on financial assets (only on egyptian real estate).
You can get servants for very cheap and live a life in luxury with a fraction of the costs it would take you to do the same in, say, Malta or Dubai. Yet the international multi millionaire class buys in Malta or Dubai.
What makes you think Gaza would get the hundreds of billions of FDI to make it the "israeli dubai" in a way, to justify your claim?
Some things he’s done have helped, some haven’t. I do disagree that negotiating with Hamas would be a safer option for Israel.
We can disagree. Can you maybe leave out the nonsense.
Refusing to negotiate with hamas while seeking interntional support for a politcal solution could have been part of a productive response.
I think Hamas being more trustworthy than the IDF has been debunked.
Operation Gaza beachfront real estate is a wild take lol.
We can disagree. Can you maybe leave out the nonsense.
Refusing to negotiate with hamas while seeking interntional support for a politcal solution could have been part of a productive response.
I mean I don’t disagree with that in theory, but the reality is that outside of the US and a handful of close allies, a lot of the international scene is anti-Israel.
Come on...... He is clearly not saying the purpose of the war is to clear out the real estate. If Israel were to drive everyone out of Gaza, they would absolutely use the land for something.
Well they aren’t going to drive everyone out of Gaza so I’m going to have to say that it’s been debunked.
