Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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i don't want to blow your mind or anything mr kirby, but israel are importing weapons from usa and elsewhere
i don't want to blow your mind or anything mr kirby, but israel are importing weapons from usa and elsewhere
Israel has complete air superiority and their bombs dont have to travel very far to hit their targets in Gaza, Lebanon and Syria. Russia does not have air superiority and their bombs would have to travel hundreds of miles.
If Israel had to fight a protracted war with Iran would be a more analogous situation. And Israel would run out of bombs to use against Iran very quick.
I never said they weren't. We've been over this multiple times.
old news obv but it's pretty damn clear that in the most charitable sense, the IDF is taking a minimal approach at reducing civilian deaths in targeting hamas.
There isn't going to be any peace and both hamas and the IDF clearly have won the gold and silver of being the worst of human existance.
White House 'deeply concerned' after Gaza officials report more than 100 killed in school sheltering thousands
"We mourn every Palestinian civilian lost in this conflict, including children, and far too many civilians continue to be killed and wounded," the statement said, adding that "this underscores the urgency of a ceasefire and hostage deal, which we continue to work tirelessly to achieve."
On Saturday afternoon, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, an IDF spokesperson, said the reported number of deaths, "do not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants, and they do not match the information held by the IDF,” Hagari said, referring to the Gaza's government information office. The death toll cited by NBC News is from civil defense, the agency that provides emergency services in Gaza.
Ok, relax guys. (Posts deleted^)
old news obv but it's pretty damn clear that in the most charitable sense, the IDF is taking a minimal approach at reducing civilian deaths in targeting hamas.
There isn't going to be any peace and both hamas and the IDF clearly have won the gold and silver of being the worst of human existance.
White House 'deeply concerned' after Gaza officials report more than 100 killed in school sheltering thousands
they are directly targeting civilians. the main point of their campaign is to kill as many civilians as possible.
old news obv but it's pretty damn clear that in the most charitable sense, the IDF is taking a minimal approach at reducing civilian deaths in targeting hamas.
There isn't going to be any peace and both hamas and the IDF clearly have won the gold and silver of being the worst of human existance.
White House 'deeply concerned' after Gaza officials report more than 100 killed in school sheltering thousands
No, it is clear you are accepting Hamas propaganda at face value, because it confirms your own biases. That is all that is clear here. And this perspective isn't charitable at all. Your entire first paragraph is an exercise in extreme bad faith.
israel are also holding thousands of innocent hostages (that they are also raping and torturing), so, uh, let's follow that one too to its logical conclusion i guess... ¯\_(ツ😉_/¯
Israel can eliminate Iran’s conventional military force within days and Israel doesn’t need to do more than that (it doesn’t need to occupy Iran and fight an insurgency)
So step 1 defeat Hamas.
I am really not sure what you're even arguing. Are you seriously saying Hamas is open to political solutions when it hasn't been defeated and really no reason to negotiate?
This is my view. (There may be other alternative paths to escalation that I could support)
Step 1 is stop digging the hole. Work with the USA to find a way to get a ceasefire. Sure get what you can from negotiations - hpstage release in particualr but undertsand thast Israel need the ceasefire so dont let hamas/Iran etc prevent you.
Then Israel should recognise they need a 2 state solution as soon as possible. Along with a very strong emphasise on defense and international politcs. Israel need the UN and international insitutions and should become a force for making them work.
Think in years/decades/geenrations. not weeks or months. There are no quick fixes military or otherwise. Years/decades/generations aren't so bad when it's peace and defense based.
I know you dont agree
Don't Palestinians also need to recognise this? As I understand it, the 2 two state solution has been on the table for Palestinians several times over the last 30 years, but they have ultimately rejected it.
They do. (I'm not that dismissing other solutions, I'm just unaware of anyway).
This has to be win - win
chez try to explain to me what would be different with a "two state solution" in Gaza vs say, 2015.
materially, what changes so much in Gaza if they are part of a state with the west bank which is more formally considered as such vs how things went 10 years ago, and why would that guarantee nothing like 7 10 can ever happen again.
also, who gets to take Jerusalem in a 2 state solution?
Israel can eliminate Iran’s conventional military force within days and Israel doesn’t need to do more than that (it doesn’t need to occupy Iran and fight an insurgency)
Even if we assume it would be a turkey-shoot and consider no other operations, fallout or aftermath, I very much doubt Israel has the ammunition, fuel, trucks or logistical component needed for such an operation. Iran is a large country in landmass and it has a large military force.
Of course, assuming it would be a turkey shoot is optimistic, even with technological advantages. Strange things happen when wars become a matter of existence. Kyiv in 3 days, etc. Israel's military is certainly effective and well organized (comparatively), but border operations and invasions are different beasts.
There is of course also the point that you really shouldn't ignore other operations, fallout or aftermath.
chez try to explain to me what would be different with a "two state solution" in Gaza vs say, 2015.
materially, what changes so much in Gaza if they are part of a state with the west bank which is more formally considered as such vs how things went 10 years ago, and why would that guarantee nothing like 7 10 can ever happen again.
also, who gets to take Jerusalem in a 2 state solution?
You're gong to need this bit
Along with a very strong emphasise on defense
They already had a strong emphasis on defense and 7 10 happened anyway, because the game is asymmetrical, there is no domestic defense that guarantees safety if your neighbor is willing to do suicide attacks. In a rational confrontatio a weaker neighbor doesn't attack because the repercussions are too big for him.
Versus fully irrational enemies and/or people who completly disregard the lives of their own citizens, only pro-active, pre-emptive approaches can guarantee safety.
Lol at implying Israel doesn’t already have the strongest emphasis on defense of any country in the world. I think it’s clear this particular discussion is going nowhere but feel free to continue for another 200 pages.
Even if we assume it would be a turkey-shoot and consider no other operations, fallout or aftermath, I very much doubt Israel has the ammunition, fuel, trucks or logistical component needed for such an operation. Iran is a large country in landmass and it has a large military force.
Of course, assuming it would be a turkey shoot is optimistic, even with technological advantages. Strange things happen when wars become a matter of existence. Kyiv in 3 days, etc. Israel's military is certainly effe
If you’re strictly talking Iran, I think the IAF alone could subdue their military.
As I understand it, Hezbollah is a different story though and a confrontation with them would be bloody.
Lol at implying Israel doesn’t already have the strongest emphasis on defense of any country in the world. I think it’s clear this particular discussion is going nowhere but feel free to continue for another 200 pages.
They need to talk about something because the purported "GeNoCiDe" is so stalled not even victor dares updating the death count, as almost no one is dying anymore.
And we keep getting video of well built palestinians from Gaza, meaning the purported "fAmInE" never happened as well.
They run out of children with very rare diseases to use in photo ops as well.
And you can't use the same pallywood actor more than 3-4 times before people realize something is off, so they can't do the "group of palestinians running around a tent while having a body in their arms" theatrical routine anymore either.
They need to talk about something because the purported "GeNoCiDe" is so stalled not even victor dares updating the death count, as almost no one is dying anymore.
And we keep getting video of well built palestinians from Gaza, meaning the purported "fAmInE" never happened as well.
They run out of children with very rare diseases to use in photo ops as well.
And you can't use the same pallywood actor more than 3-4 times before people realize something is off, so they can't do the "group of palest
Lol… yeah the genocide talk has always been full of contradictions.
I also think it’s worth pointing out the obvious fact that Israel is consistently demonized by the international community for having a strong emphasis on defense. Having a strong emphasis on defense and international politics, especially anything related to the UN is an impossibility in the present political landscape.
Lol at implying Israel doesn’t already have the strongest emphasis on defense of any country in the world. I think it’s clear this particular discussion is going nowhere but feel free to continue for another 200 pages.
Ok of you think there was no lack of defense on 10 7 then we disagree very profoundly
But we agree that a stronger emphasis on defense could have prevented (or at least greatly limited) 10 7?
But we agree that a stronger emphasis on defense could have prevented (or at least greatly limited) 10 7?
no we don't, not domestically. Only a military occupation of Gaza could have prevented it. You can't fix the tunnels from Israel side alone, nor make it impossible for terrorists to train, organize, arm themselves and so on.
Once the terrorists are organized you can't defend at 100% , 100% of the time. It's asymmetrical, it's impossible. Sharing a land border they will always find a way sooner or later.
