Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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What happened after that?
Let’s just make sure we all agree that the Israelis were sent to live on Palestinian land first
The current Israeli govt came into power by fighting a small war against the British in the 1940s
The British were protecting the Palestinians from the people who wanted to start Israel. After years of fighting and losing over 50 people, the British pulled out and stopped protecting the Palestinians
Then the Israeli govt was setup and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were forcible removed from their lands. Many were killed
Do you acknowledge this?
No... some of that is true, but if we're not going to begin w/ an honest framing of this situation, it's going to go nowhere.
Also, does re-litigating the past help w/ the current situation? Let's say what you're claiming is 100% true... what do you w/ the Jewish people in Israel?
I fear I know the answer.
What’s an honest framing
To take just one of your rapid-fire misconceptions, that just isn't true. As people of the book, Jews and Christians have a protected status under the Koran. Muslims believe in both the Old Testament and the New. The Koran is a third prophecy designed for Arabs. Devout Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. You don't sound well informed.
It is 100% true, and if I sent you a picture of my bookshelves on this topic, you'd understand I'm pretty well-informed. I don't pretend to know everything, but it's a specific issue that I've taken a deep dive into for decades. It primarily started because I was fascinated w/ antisemitism.
Islamic terrorist attack database:
https://www.fondapol.org/en/study/islami...
From their own mouths:
I have an excellent article also from the LA times, that I can't locate right now, but it sums this all up very well, and it's extremely short... if I can find it.
They've also done countless polls on this over the years in Palestine specifically, asking about martyrdom and how many people believe in Jihad. 65-70% of the Palestinian population has agreed w/ these positions. It's not like it's some small amount of extremist in Palestine.
That doesn't mean that some Islamist don't take everything in the Koran seriously... but it does talk about the killing of infidels and what the objectives are. Are you saying it doesn't, and that a lot of Muslims clearly take this as a serious part of their religion?
65-70% of the Palestinian population has agreed w/ these positions. It's not like it's some small amount of extremist in Palestine.
interesting.
. Only 28% of Jewish Israelis answered that “they should stand criminal trial”; 14% of Jewish Israelis didn’t know.
That figure, 65%, also echoes the February poll saying that 68% of Jewish Israelis “oppose the transfer of humanitarian aid to Gaza residents at this time,” even if Hamas or UNRWA were out of the picture in terms of distribution.
it's not like it's some small amount of extremist in israel.
Wikipedia is not a trusted source beyond being used to reference events and citations. No offense, but if you don't understand that "Palestine" isn't a real thing, we're on different wavelengths with this discussion. FYI, the term "Palestinian" refers to folks in that location, not Arabs. It's like Ken Griffey, Ichiro, and Randy Johnson all being considered "Seattleites" at some point. Jews are the indigenous people of the region, having had a constant presence since antiquity. Arabs are from the Arabian Peninsula and conquered the land in the 7th century. "Palestinian" included Jews and historically referred to a group separate from the Arabs you now consider "Palestinian."
Anyway, the stuff you quoted doesn't dispute anything I said. You simply don't understand basic terminology it seems. Again, no offense, but if you don't even understand that Jews are indigenous to the region and lawfully immigrated back, we can't really proceed further. There is no such thing as "Palestinian" in the way you believe. They are just Arabs.
To take just one of your rapid-fire misconceptions, that just isn't true. As people of the book, Jews and Christians have a protected status under the Koran. Muslims believe in both the Old Testament and the New. The Koran is a third prophecy designed for Arabs. Devout Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. You don't sound well informed.
lmao, this is the classic misinformation repeated ad nauseam by people. Interesting, go look up jizya and tell me how fairly Muslims treated their fellow "People of the Book." Extortion to still be treated as lesser doesn't seem very protected to me. Arabs literally conquered the land from them, so how protected is their status? They decided Mohammed's little "night journey" must've included Temple Mount, despite no reason for that (the farthest Mosque to the North or whatever is somehow the remains of the Jews holy temple). They subsequently built their Dome of the Rock right on top of it, which doesn't seem very respectful, in my opinion. Care to mention how many Christians are currently left in Gaza? What do you think of this banner they keep at the Mosque of Omar?
You are also arguing against strawmen. Nobody suggested that they don't believe in Christ or acknowledge the previous Abrahamic religions. They acknowledge Christ and consider him a prophet. He's mentioned quite a bit in the Quran. They simply believe Mohammed is the final prophet with the true and final word of God. They also don't believe in the Torah or Gospel how Jews and Christans do. They acknowledge them, but are taught that they've been corrupted or altered and aren't fully authentic. Most importantly, you're completely wrong about the Quran being a "final prophecy for Arabs." The issue with Islam is that the Quran is designed to be the universal and final revelation for all of humanity from Mohammed, the true last prophet carrying the absolute word of God. It's intended to supersede the previous revelations you referenced. It's actually you who is extremely uninformed on the issue (or perhaps disingenuous, but that remains to be seen, I guess).
It's funny hearing people suggest Jews have some protected status when the Hadith quotes Mohammed as saying anything but. It'd be more accurate and fair to acknowledge these issues, but remind folks that not every Muslim adheres to the worst parts of Islam.
bro just dropped a Raleigh Times headline from the 40s
Wikipedia is not a trusted source beyond being used to reference events and citations. No offense, but if you don't understand that "Palestine" isn't a real thing, we're on different wavelengths with this discussion. FYI, the term "Palestinian" refers to folks in that location, not Arabs. It's like Ken Griffey, Ichiro, and Randy Johnson all being considered "Seattleites" at some point.
Jews are the indigenous people of the region, having had a constant presence since antiquity. Arabs are from th
I think wikipedia is a very good source for non-politically-hot topics, and the more a topic is political the less wikipedia is good.
For the most politically controversial topics wikipedia is pure trash, but that's only a very very very small portion of all topics, no matter how salient those topics are.
Just saying that for , say, cooking methods , wiki is great
interesting.
65% of Israeli Jews oppose criminal pros.... Only 28% of Jewish Israelis answered that “they should stand criminal trial”; 14% of Jewish Israelis didn’t know.
That figure, 65%, also echoes the February poll saying that 68% of Jewish Israelis “oppose the transfer of humanitarian aid to Gaza residents at this time,” even if Hamas or UNRWA were out of the picture in terms of distribution.
it's not like it's some small amount o
It's not extremism to defend your soldiers during a war no matter what. It would be extremism to do the opposite.
interesting.
65% of Israeli Jews oppose criminal pros.... Only 28% of Jewish Israelis answered that “they should stand criminal trial”; 14% of Jewish Israelis didn’t know.
That figure, 65%, also echoes the February poll saying that 68% of Jewish Israelis “oppose the transfer of humanitarian aid to Gaza residents at this time,” even if Hamas or UNRWA were out of the picture in terms of distribution.
it's not like it's some small amount o
I'm not sure what's interesting about the same number, unless you're implying 65-70% is counter propaganda... which it's not. This is a UN poll they've been doing for decades. You can google it.
As far as your article, it looks like blatant propaganda, and it doesn't help that the poll they link to won't even open. But regardless, I'll look into it more when I have time.
This is just making my point though... Israel is held to higher a moral standard. There's a clear moral false equivalency. If this was the opposite information, people would just accept it as, that's what Hamas and these terrorist organizations do.... because... that's how this latest war started in the first place. The kidnapped and rapped women who were in Israel at a party / rave.
They've also done countless polls on this over the years in Palestine specifically, asking about martyrdom and how many people believe in Jihad. 65-70% of the Palestinian population has agreed w/ these positions. It's not like it's some small amount of extremist in Palestine.
They live under ugly, brutal military occupation. Let's look at the attitudes of Muslims who are not under occupation. From The University of Maryland's Program on International Public Attitudes, a 2007 poll found that
In contrast, just 46% of Americans think so.That doesn't mean that some Islamist don't take everything in the Koran seriously... but it does talk about the killing of infidels and what the objectives are. Are you saying it doesn't, and that a lot of Muslims clearly take this as a serious part of their religion?
Would you reword that question, I couldn't follow it.
Israel is held to higher a moral standard.
The U.S. is giving it a pass on actual genocide!
As far as your article, it looks like blatant propaganda, and it doesn't help that the poll they link to won't even open.
The poll finding 65% of Jewish Israelis support the rapists was conducted by the Israeli Institute for National Security Studies. The linked article opens but it's in Hebrew.
Literally said "no red lines" lol
I think wikipedia is a very good source for non-politically-hot topics, and the more a topic is political the less wikipedia is good.
For the most politically controversial topics wikipedia is pure trash, but that's only a very very very small portion of all topics, no matter how salient those topics are.
Just saying that for , say, cooking methods , wiki is great
Yes, I meant specifically for this issue, but agreed that others are also captured, such as gender topics.
They quite literally don't. Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza like 20 years ago. West Bank has different sections for settlers and Arabs, with the latter being governed by Fatah. Israel occupies it because of terrorist activity to protect their citizens. I'd hardly consider separate roads to stop suicide bombings and Molotov cocktail attacks or a few checkpoints they must go through to enter Israel to work a "brutal military occupation." Am I supposed to be upset that Israel has beefed up border security to stop the frequent suicide attacks from Arabs on the other side of the fence?
Have you ever read anything about this conflict?
They live under ugly, brutal military occupation. Let's look at the attitudes of Muslims who are not under occupation. From The University of Maryland's Program on International Public Attitudes, a 2007 poll found that
In contrast, just 46% of Americans think so.What? Brutal military occupation? wtf are you talking about? There hasn't been an occupation there since 2005, when Israel withdrew from the territory, unilaterally forcibly removing 9000 of its own citizens and literally digging up Jewish graves. The Israelis have been out of Gaza for nearly 20 years, and yet they have been attacked from Gaza ever since.
Would you reword that question, I couldn't follow it.
It doesn't matter... you have a crazy view honestly of what's going on, so it's not worth engaging.
The U.S. is giving it a pass on actual genocide!
Genocide? This is exactly what I was talking about earlier... you're liberal correct?
How many genocides do you know of where the person committing genocide drops leaflets, flyers, and announces where they are bombing?
The poll finding 65% of Jewish Israelis support the rapists was conducted by the Israeli Institute for National Security Studies. The linked article opens but it's in Hebrew.
It didn't open for me, but the sites it's framed on looks highly suspect. So I don't know the validity of this information. But again, let's assume 100% true... how did this recent war start?
I'm not sure what's interesting about the same number, unless you're implying 65-70% is counter propaganda... which it's not. This is a UN poll they've been doing for decades. You can google it.
As far as your article, it looks like blatant propaganda, and it doesn't help that the poll they link to won't even open. But regardless, I'll look into it more when I have time.
This is just making my point though... Israel is held to higher a moral standard. There's a clear moral false equivalency. If th
Why do people keep saying this lol. I'd hope Israel was held to a higher moral standard than Hamas. Do you really want to compare a democratic country to a terrorist organization?
this is the classic misinformation repeated ad nauseam by people. Interesting, go look up jizya and tell me how fairly Muslims treated their fellow "People of the Book."
Meh, saying this is classic misinformation is somewhat wrong, yes JIZYAH was a thing under Islamic reign but pretending dhimmi wasn't a real thing is equally disingenuous.
no offense, but if you don't even understand that Jews are indigenous to the region and lawfully immigrated back, we can't really proceed further. There is no such thing as "Palestinian" in the way you believe. They are just Arabs.
Who are also indigenous to the region. Something not even Israeli historians dare to dispute. Btw, the indigenous argument is easily the dumbest one in this entire debate.
Wikipedia is not a trusted source beyond being used to reference events and citations. No offense, but if you don't understand that "Palestine" isn't a real thing, we're on different wavelengths with this discussion. FYI, the term "Palestinian" refers to folks in that location, not Arabs. It's like Ken Griffey, Ichiro, and Randy Johnson all being considered "Seattleites" at some point. Jews are the indigenous people of the region, having had a constant presence since antiquity. Arabs are from th
No sorry that’s not what happened. Wikipedia is one of the most reliable collection of sources on the planet.
I know plenty of Palestinians who are called Palestinians and whose family lived there for many many generations.
So bibi is an indigenous Palestinian person? How is that possible when his dad is from Poland?
Benzion Mileikowsky (later Netanyahu) was born in Warsaw in partitioned Poland, which was under Russian control, to Sarah (Lurie) and the writer and Zionist activist Nathan Mileikowsky. Nathan was a rabbi who toured Europe and the United States, making speeches supporting Zionism. In 1920 the Mileikowsky family immigrated to Mandatory Palestine and changed their surname to Netanyahu. After living in Jaffa, Tel Aviv, and Safed, the family settled in Jerusalem. Benzion Netanyahu studied at the teachers' seminary and the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. Although his father was a rabbi, Benzion was secular.[4] His younger brother, mathematician Elisha Netanyahu, became dean of sciences at the Technion. It was a common practice for Zionist immigrants at the time to adopt a Hebrew name.[5] Nathan Mileikowsky began signing some of the articles he wrote "Netanyahu", the Hebrew version of his first name, and his son adopted this as his family name. He also used the pen name "Nitay." Two of his aunts were murdered during The Holocaust in 1941.[6]
They quite literally don't. Israel voluntarily withdrew from Gaza like 20 years ago. West Bank has different sections for settlers and Arabs, with the latter being governed by Fatah. Israel occupies it because of terrorist activity to protect their citizens. I'd hardly consider separate roads to stop suicide bombings and Molotov cocktail attacks or a few checkpoints they must go through to enter Israel to work a "brutal military occupation." Am I supposed to be upset that Israel has beefed up bo
God we're now going to deny the illegal settlements of the West Bank?
Again.... how does re-litigating the past, help solve the current situation? If you're holding those positions, you're treading a fine line of anti-Semitism, because the obvious reason this would want to be re-litigated, is to do away w/ Jews in the state.
And since that's not going to happen, I'll ask this question again...
Americans are taken hostage on their own soil, many of them rapped and killed. The people who do this, shoot rockets into America using schools and hospitals as cover. They send children into war zones to plant bombs, and use women and children as human bomb shields. As a culture, they are abusive to their women, will lock up or kill gay people, and have a religion which says they must kill all infidels who don't believe in their religion. 65-70% of the people who live in this country hold these exact positions of jihad. They've been doing this for decades and centuries on end, relentlessly, and have zero intention of peace, ever.... and they are your neighbors.
What's your play?
Well one side is saying Palestinians invaded Israel and are trying to steal Israeli land
And one side lived in Palestine and was invaded by Israel and had their land stolen by Israel
It’s important we agree on statement of facts so we can properly debate what’s going on
Why do people keep saying this lol. I'd hope Israel was held to a higher moral standard than Hamas. Do you really want to compare a democratic country to a terrorist organization?
It's being said (and not enough) because people are railing against Israel unjustly (like in this thread)... acting as if their response to Hamas is unwarranted and they are just randomly wanting to bomb the country for no good reason.
One side of this will not stop until it has all of Israel (and more). One side of this has already ceded territory, and tried endlessly to broker peace. One side of this has NO interest in peace... yet... you guys are siding w/ the people who are the initial aggressors, treat women as objects, kill gay people, and would kill you if you're non-believer.
Make it make sense please.
What? Brutal military occupation? wtf are you talking about? There hasn't been an occupation there since 2005,
Your survey included the West Bank, no? And the occupation of Gaza did not end, it just withdrew to the perimeter. Gazans are kept in an open air prison. They were not allowed to fish more than 3 miles out.
How many genocides do you know of where the person committing genocide drops leaflets, flyers, and announces where they are bombing?
The Lancet study estimated nearly 200,000 dead. The restrictions on food and medicine clinch the intent, as does the systematic elimination of schools, universities, housing, mosques, churches, and civic buildings.
An Israeli doctor reported that detainees routinely have hands amputated because cuffs were left on too long. Look upstream for the cite in Haaretz.
So much wrong packed into one sentence. The seizure of territory is ongoing. Israel just announced a huge expansion of the settlements. It appears to plan on keeping the northern portion of Gaza.
At Oslo, the Palestinian Authority was never offered a state or an end to military occupation. The failure of the PA to acquire a state is why Hamas grew so much.
You asked if I am a liberal. No. The Democrats are engaging in actual genocide.
the initial aggressors
This started in the 1890s.
