Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Romans slaughtered a lot of Jews in the ancient times. I dont think Israel should be allowed to carpet bomb and siege Italy. Germans much more recently too and the same applies.
As i reported previously covering the topic it's true that muslims discriminated against jews less than european (it's false to claim they didn't discriminate at all though).
Up to the ottoman empire. Then they chose differently. I wouldn't call it "import" because they chose to become the most antisemite in the world on their own volition, because they disliked the idea of Israel existing, because they had allied with hitler and so on.
We also have to remember the Islamic world is not a monolith. For much of Islamic history, the Middle East has been controlled by Turks and or Persians, two societies that have generally been more cosmopolitan and less antisemetic than Arab societies.
Also, much of the rise in antisemitism that has taken place in the 20th century is an offshoot of the Muslim Arab ethnonationalist (and later Islamist) movements, including the Palestinian one, where many minority groups have seen dramatic increases in persecution, pogroms and massacres. Minority groups such Christians, Berbers, Druze, Kurds, etc. have been persecuted similarly to Jews in modern Muslim Arab ethnonationalist states.
And under Erdogan especially, Turkey has basically gone full Nazi mode, which our establishment suppresses as a matter of policy, as Turkey is seen as such a strategically important "ally" we have to just ignore how horrible the Turkish Islamist ethnonationalist state under Erdogan is.
If progressives actually worked on first principles, and not their own ideologically motivated bigotry, the condemnation of Turkey should be at least as strong as that of Israel for its behavior the last century, especially the last few decades under Erdogan's leadership.
Romans slaughtered a lot of Jews in the ancient times. I dont think Israel should be allowed to carpet bomb and siege Italy. Germans much more recently too and the same applies.
Germany and Italy have the same validity in claiming land in the area where Israel stands as the so called "palestinians" have: none whatsoever at all.
That is the point.
Germany and Italy have the same validity in claiming land in the area where Israel stands as the so called "palestinians" have: none whatsoever at all.
That is the point.
well now you are just talking about something else. but along the same lines, personally I dont think those with Etruscan blood should be able to rule Italy or a piece of Italy as an apartheid state.
We also have to remember the Islamic world is not a monolith. For much of Islamic history, the Middle East has been controlled by Turks and or Persians, two societies that have generally been more cosmopolitan and less antisemetic than Arab societies.
Also, much of the rise in antisemitism that has taken place in the 20th century is an offshoot of the Muslim Arab ethnonationalist (and later Islamist) movements, including the Palestinian one, where many minority groups have seen dramatic increa
Convenient isn't it?
Nonsense. There was huge variation in time and place.
was in the court of Saladin.
That's from the Hadith, not the Koran. The Koran calls for friendship with the Jews, see this book.
The Koran is much more authoritative. The Hadith is full of contemporary power figures saying what they think Muhammad said.
I didn't say it was the Quran. I am aware it's from the Hadith. It doesn't matter, though. The point is that it's clearly taken serious and treated as Mohammed's word (as evidenced by the way Arabs teat Jews). You argue so disingenuously that it's hard to believe you're not deliberately obtuse in this thread. It's not really debatable that a sizable portion of the Arabs we're discussing want to kill the Jews and destroy Israel. So why are you like, "Nah, the word of Mohammed himself is NBD. If you pay attention, the Quran says NOT to murder every Jew in certain parts!" Who cares? We can see how they operate in real time.
lol @ dhimmi being something positive again.
A Berber dynasty, the Almohads, conquered Córdoba in 1148 and abolished dhimmi status (i.e., state protection of non-Muslims ensured through payment of a tax, the jizya) in some[which?] of their territories. The loss of this status forced the Jewish and Christian communities to choose between conversion to Islam, death, or exile.[16] Many Jews were forced to convert, but due to suspicion by the authorities of fake conversions, the new converts had to wear identifying clothing that set them apart and made them subject to public scrutiny.[18]
Sounds like such a swell time. Thank the lord they're "People of the Book!" Not being murdered as long as you can be extorted isn't the flex of religious freedom and tolerance you seem to think. It sounds like that dreaded "ApArThEiD cUlTuRe!"
I have to ignore this dude, too.
man, have you guys ever read the Old Testament?
I feel 50 times less bad about it than I feel about what Israel has done
How do you feel about Israel killing 50x the amount of civilians?
Interesting, because I feel equally the same about both. It's a tragedy on both sides.
To your question, since you've liked to ask it many times, the anti-war person in me is absolutely saddened and horrified that innocent people are caught up in this religious insanity, that has no viable solution because it's a battle of who's god is bigger. Netanyahu is a POS by all measures, but this is exactly what happens when people get scared for their safety or economic freedom, and turn to conservative strong arm leaders. It's analogous to what's happening in America in many ways (that's a whole other thread).
The Philosopher in me though is more nuanced, thoughtful, and researched about what's actually going on in that area. You have a democratic nation, filled w/ well-educated people that have been persecuted no matter where they've gone throughout the world, and have gone through multiple genocides. I can't imagine the generational trauma that creates, so I can't fully put myself in their shoes and justly judge them. I don't think any of us can. Most of us have never even been to Israel.
I can't imagine having random rockets launched into my community, and then trying to measure what the appropriate response is to prevent more attacks. How does America respond when it's attacked, and why does it respond w/ such force? I think we know the answer.. it often wipes out whole countries. I don't think I have the answer on what size of push back is adequate, but I do find it mildly funny/sad that you and many others in here to do...
... but hey, it's the internet... might as well just throw our uninformed opinions out there.
Sorry, this is a very naive perspective.
The actual motivation for the next Oct 7 will be the same as the motivation for the first Oct 7, being that there are Jews in control of 'Muslim land'.
As for losing the sympathy of supporters of terrorism, it doesn't matter. They wanted Israel destroyed on Oct 6, and nothing has or will change there.
If I had a nickle for every time someone said this BS in here.. I'd have a lot of fkn nickels.
Now to the actual facts...
Jews have been in Israel for THOUSANDS of years. They are indigenous to that area as well.
They were also indigenous to Egypt and Syria and Yemen and Turkey and Iran and other Muslim countries before being driven out of those countries by Muslims. No one at the UN is worried about the Jews, so-called right of return. Is anyone pressuring Muslim countries to give Jews their homes back?
The world is complicated, ideological purism in geopolitics other than "anything that furthers our success is moral" leaves you dead and others playing.
The world is quite simple as is humanity. We're selfish and do things that benefit us first and the rest can **** off.
In the words of the great philosopher John Dutton ''I consider every option. And I choose the one that's best for my family. If it helps you, it's a coincidence.''
It's an uncontested historical fact Mohammed personally led campaigns against and killed a whole lot of Jews.
You can't have a serious conversation about this, if you're not being fair.
That's absolutely not true at all. Wtf is going on this thread? Seriously...
I'm going to keep posting this fact:
Jews have been in Israel for THOUSANDS of years. They are indigenous to that area as well.
They were also indigenous to Egypt and Syria and Yemen and Turkey and Iran and other Muslim countries before being driven out of those countries by Muslims. No one at the UN is worried about the Jews, so-called right of return. Is anyone pressuring Muslim countries to give Jews their homes back?
The world is quite simple as is humanity. We're selfish and do things that benefit us first and the rest can **** off.
In the words of the great philosopher John Dutton ''I consider every option. And I choose the one that's best for my family. If it helps you, it's a coincidence.''
Yes and so what helps you and the people you care about is moral and viceversa.
And i am not Palestinian nor an ally of Palestinians, while I am an ally of Israel ad is every citizen of every western country.
This is what your problem is: you are a traitor to your country if your country is allied to Israel and you don't support Israel, always, no caveats, against Palestinians, simple as that.
You can't have a serious conversation about this, if you're not being fair.
That's absolutely not true at all. Wtf is going on this thread? Seriously...
I'm going to keep posting this fact:
Jews have been in Israel for THOUSANDS of years. They are indigenous to that area as well.
I'm not trying to pressure anyone to give homes back
You aren't occupying an area if your soldiers don't patrol that area and your representatives control the local administration
So why isn't Gaza a state?
Interesting, because I feel equally the same about both. It's a tragedy on both sides.
To your question, since you've liked to ask it many times, the anti-war person in me is absolutely saddened and horrified that innocent people are caught up in this religious insanity, that has no viable solution because it's a battle of who's god is bigger. Netanyahu is a POS by all measures, but this is exactly what happens when people get scared for their safety or economic freedom, and turn to conservative
If the kills to deaths ratio doesn’t bother you. And civilian deaths don’t bother you. Then why did Oct 7 bother you?
If Jews and Muslims can't live on the same land, that shouldn't be America's problem.
Yes and so what helps you and the people you care about is moral and viceversa.
And i am not Palestinian nor an ally of Palestinians, while I am an ally of Israel ad is every citizen of every western country.
This is what your problem is: you are a traitor to your country if your country is allied to Israel and you don't support Israel, always, no caveats, against Palestinians, simple as that.
Patriots don't put the security of a foreign country over the security of its own. The relationship with Israel isn't disinterested or ideological, but it's outdated and, therefore, relatively useless. Relative to the blowback Americans have faced for the relationship.
If Jews and Muslims want a society on that land, they'll have to work for it. The U.S. and Iran, et al. are just enabling belligerence.
If the kills to deaths ratio doesn’t bother you. And civilian deaths don’t bother you. Then why did Oct 7 bother you?
It's almost as if you didn't read my response. I'll re-post it with some highlights...
Interesting, because I feel equally the same about both. It's a tragedy on both sides.
To your question, since you've liked to ask it many times, the anti-war person in me is absolutely saddened and horrified that innocent people are caught up in this religious insanity, that has no viable solution because it's a battle of who's god is bigger. Netanyahu is a POS by all measures, but this is exactly what happens when people get scared for their safety or economic freedom, and turn to conservative strong arm leaders. It's analogous to what's happening in America in many ways (that's a whole other thread).
The Philosopher in me though is more nuanced, thoughtful, and researched about what's actually going on in that area. You have a democratic nation, filled w/ well-educated people that have been persecuted no matter where they've gone throughout the world, and have gone through multiple genocides. I can't imagine the generational trauma that creates, so I can't fully put myself in their shoes and justly judge them. I don't think any of us can. Most of us have never even been to Israel.
I can't imagine having random rockets launched into my community, and then trying to measure what the appropriate response is to prevent more attacks. How does America respond when it's attacked, and why does it respond w/ such force? I think we know the answer.. it often wipes out whole countries. I don't think I have the answer on what size of push back is adequate, but I do find it mildly funny/sad that you and many others in here to do...
... but hey, it's the internet... might as well just throw our uninformed opinions out there.
Why isn't Taiwan a state?
Being a state is about external recognition right? and a sufficient number of important countries worldwide don't recognize (yet?) palestine as a state. Reasons might vary. including the fact it's a small area and they don't even agree among themselves (remember gaza seceding from the palestine authority and so on)
Patriots don't put the security of a foreign country over the security of its own. The relationship with Israel isn't disinterested or ideological, but it's outdated and, therefore, relatively useless. Relative to the blowback Americans have faced for the relationship.
If Jews and Muslims want a society on that land, they'll have to work for it. The U.S. and Iran, et al. are just enabling belligerence.
The security of the US is directly tied to the security of Israel. We have a long standing and complex military and intelligence relationship with Israel. I’d recommend reading up on it a bit, very fascinating. The US currently has billions of dollars in military supplies stored in Israel. You do realize that US military dominance is what affords you the life you enjoy?
