Should I call this flop 3bet jam?
Hi all,
I was playing some $2/$5 at my local casino last night; a nice limpy action game.
Action folds to the Lojack, a loose aggressive player, who limps in for $5 off a $455 stack. I'm on the button and look down at 6♣5♣. I want to isolate and play pots in position against the Lojack. I have his stack covered; I go to $30 and he calls. (I realize this is a larger than usual size for raising limpers - I used $22/$25 in the past, but that size is not enough to get folds from the remaining players in this game; so I've been defaulting to $30).
The flop comes 6♥5♥2♥ and villain leads for $40. My main concern at this point is protecting my hand against semi bluffs (as this villain loves playing flush draws aggressively) so I raise to $125. He tanks for a long while and makes a couple of comments like "what am I meant to do here?" and then rips it for $425.
Hero...?
Preflop is great. I like the thought process on sizing.
As for flop, i think you played it great the whole way thru, and its only a tough decision on the jam because of the speech play. If you think hes good enough to throw reverse tells you can maybe find a call but i think its a reads based fold. Im snap calling without the speech and tank part.
Man wtf are these comments. Pre is entirely standard, my only issue is I wouldn't be scaling up to $30 because I don't really care about going multiway with the blinds. If they wanna make a mistake and overcall they can, 65s is a great hand on the button and I'm fine playing it hu or multiway. There's some really **** advice being given in this thread with an entirely undeserved air of authority.
Man wtf are these comments. Pre is entirely standard, my only issue is I wouldn't be scaling up to $30 because I don't really care about going multiway with the blinds. If they wanna make a mistake and overcall they can, 65s is a great hand on the button and I'm fine playing it hu or multiway. There's some really **** advice being given in this thread with an entirely undeserved air of authority.
91bb effective is a number. 6bb iso is a number. It’s not an air of authority.
***REVEAL***
I called. Villain had pocket nines with the 9 of hearts (a massive overplay of course). We ran it twice and I won both runouts, despite being behind when the money went in:
But n.b. I only need 33% equity to call with the price I'm getting, so even if he turns his hand face up it's still a simple call.
Piosolver agreed with the call; it's making about $80 - not a fortune, but still a lot better than folding:
Nice hand. I think you should ask yourself, why is it that you call villain a LAG? Does he bluffs a lot? Overvalue hands? Villain just seems like a fish that donks the absolute strength of his hand and has no ability to hand read. I was thinking villain could have all sorts of AhXx combos that he would play this way if he is a LAG. But if he is a fish just sticking off with silly stuff here then that is a compelling reason to call too.
There are different schools of thought on whether or not you should iso with these types of hands vs fish who lump call stronger hands. I don't hate the aggressive approach you take. How many times is the flop going to come K high or A high and you just get to take it down because he limp called when he would be winning the pot if he just open raised? That said, I personally like being very linear with my iso range vs fish who limp call a ton.
Preflop is great. I like the thought process on sizing.
As for flop, i think you played it great the whole way thru, and its only a tough decision on the jam because of the speech play. If you think hes good enough to throw reverse tells you can maybe find a call but i think its a reads based fold. Im snap calling without the speech and tank part.
Thanks for the support, I'm glad some people agreed with how I played the hand.
Usually I would be cautious with this type of speechplay too, but in this instance I was 99% sure that he was genuinely unsure of how to proceed. As a result my only real concern was that he had flopped a small flush and was concerned I might have a bigger one. The bottom line was that I was getting a decent price, he was unsure, I was flipping with overpair plus flush draw hands, and I knew from playing this guy previously that he could be doing this with Ahxx and Khxx - so I made the call, although I tanked for a long while first as it's obviously a pretty tight spot.
Man wtf are these comments. Pre is entirely standard, my only issue is I wouldn't be scaling up to $30 because I don't really care about going multiway with the blinds. If they wanna make a mistake and overcall they can, 65s is a great hand on the button and I'm fine playing it hu or multiway. There's some really **** advice being given in this thread with an entirely undeserved air of authority.
Thanks for the input and support. I went to $30 preflop because I know at least one of the blinds is probably calling if I "only" to go $25, and I'd prefer to play this heads up vs the LAG.
I assume you're trying to imply something here about the SPR being an issue when you're playing 65s?
On the flop in this hand the SPR is going to be just over 7.
At GTO equilibrium 100bbs deep the BB is 4x 3betting the BTN to 10bb with 65s, creating an SPR of about 4.5. Do you also claim that that is the incorrect way to play?
Nice hand. I think you should ask yourself, why is it that you call villain a LAG? Does he bluffs a lot? Overvalue hands? Villain just seems like a fish that donks the absolute strength of his hand and has no ability to hand read. I was thinking villain could have all sorts of AhXx combos that he would play this way if he is a LAG. But if he is a fish just sticking off with silly stuff here then that is a compelling reason to call too.
There are different schools of thought on whether or n
Thanks.
I call this villain a LAG because he plays too loose and is not afraid to aggressively go after pots when he senses weakness. He definitely bluffs a lot and overvalues/overplays hands. But he is certainly on the fishy side of LAG, with little knowledge of theory or how one is "meant" to play. He can certainly have Ahxx and Khxx in this spot. I was actually surprised when he turned over his hand; but as you said - all the more reason to call him in similar spots in the future.
I definitely don't iso-raise 65s 100% of the time; it is of course player-dependent and in any case a low frequency play - perhaps 20% of the time. Villain had just dusted off a stack and reloaded too.
Absolutely; when the flop comes Axx or Kxx I'm going to take it down with a cbet a large percentage of the time (and as you said he could have had this luxury if he had open raised as normal himself, instead of limping). The same goes with most paired boards and monotone boards; that's the beautiful and perennial power of range advantage - which again is why I strongly prefer iso-raising rather than limping along.
Thanks yes in hindsight I agree that the flop raise was unwise; I simply wanted to protect my hand as I felt it was vulnerable.
I would have bet 25-33% pot on this board.
Definitely I should flat flop and reassess on the turn; agreed.
Just to ensure the main point isn't lost...if you would have c-bet 1/3 pot or less, and V donks for more than that, we don't need to raise for protection against a draw. V is already setting a high price for himself, if he's drawing, or otherwise bloating the pot if he's way behind. If he isn't, we're just donating.
It would be different if we flopped the nuts, but our hand was vulnerable. In that scenario, we just want to go for max value, by raising V's donk.
It would also be different if we raised pre with a speculative hand that flops a huge draw and can continue to a 3B. There again, we can raise V's donk.
Lastly, say we raised with a hand like K2s, and V donked on a K-high board. We might raise there, to get V to fold better Kx, by repping better Kx or AA.
I assume you're trying to imply something here about the SPR being an issue when you're playing 65s?
On the flop in this hand the SPR is going to be just over 7.
At GTO equilibrium 100bbs deep the BB is 4x 3betting the BTN to 10bb with 65s, creating an SPR of about 4.5. Do you also claim that that is the incorrect way to play?
+10 to this.
Heck, im not even gonna say “omg 65s is standard.” Its just AT MINIMUM perfectly reasonable. If someone folded 65s here thats fine too, whatever.
Yeah the raise pre OTB with 56s vs one LP limp was fine
Sure, you're right that I had not considered what I would do if he jammed, and it came as a surprise. At the end of the day I'm getting a very good price and have effectively priced myself in to call fairly wide (regardless of whether or not that's ideal). The question really is what is the cutoff point now for hand strength with regards to the hands I call with.
It's one thing you should (and everyone should) be doing every time you raise, is to think in advance and already know what you're doing if he raises so that way, for example, if you would have to fold (like I would here), maybe it would be better to just call while you might potentially have the odds to fill up if you needed to.
The dealer actually pointed out after the hand that I am relatively close to the top of my range here after isolating preflop. Aside from the obvious flushes and the few combos of high overpairs with a heart, I don't have many stronger hands. For one thing, I have few sets at all after isolating (just pocket sixes some of the time). Do you think I should only call with flushes? Surely that is exploitable as it's a pretty small fraction of my range?
Did the dealer say all this out loud in front of all the players? To me that's pretty horrible (btjm, as usual) and you have all the sets and flushes in your range, you were the PFR but don't ever worry about being exploited in these spots. Try to win (or lose as little as possible) in THIS hand, don't worry about a hand you might get into it with him in a week from now... "balance" is over rated especially vs recreational players.
I'm surprised that you don't think a LAG would donk with the bare ace flush draw; often that's their bread and butter, no?
Of course he could, but when he 3bet jams, I don't think it's only ace high.
Just to ensure the main point isn't lost...if you would have c-bet 1/3 pot or less, and V donks for more than that, we don't need to raise for protection against a draw. V is already setting a high price for himself, if he's drawing, or otherwise bloating the pot if he's way behind. If he isn't, we're just donating.
It would be different if we flopped the nuts, but our hand was vulnerable. In that scenario, we just want to go for max value, by raising V's donk.
It would also be different if we ra
Thanks for the input but I'm not sure I follow your logic. For example, if I know that villain has Ahxx on the flop, surely I want to raise after he donks into me?
Because my hand is ahead, but vulnerable. This was my concern in the hand and the reason why I raised on the flop. And I also simply have a profitable situation where I can get value from Ahxx and Khxx etc type hands. Sure, villain has already set himself a high price to draw (and would have paid less if he had checked to me instead) but after donking he has given me the opportunity to punish him and charge him even more to draw to his flush - which surely I should utilize? Of course there's the risk that he has flopped a flush/set and in that case I'm badly value cutting myself, but that was a risk I was prepared to take against this opponent.
Yeah the raise pre OTB with 56s vs one LP limp was fine
It's one thing you should (and everyone should) be doing every time you raise, is to think in advance and already know what you're doing if he raises so that way, for example, if you would have to fold (like I would here), maybe it would be better to just call while you might potentially have the odds to fill up if you needed to.
Did the dealer say all this out loud in front of all the players? To me that's pretty horrible (btjm, as usual) a
Sure thing, in hindsight I see the merit in calling on the flop as opposed to raising. I just don't expect to get 3bet on the flop too often this particular game.
Yes, the dealer said that to me at the table. It's a game I have played in for years where everyone knows everyone (and villain from the hand had left the table) so it wasn't really a a big deal. The point he was making is that when I iso-raise a limper preflop I don't have pocket 5s or 2s in my range (and pocket 6s only some of the time) - which is correct. So, aside from flushes and a small amount of pocket 6s, top two pair is pretty high up in my range (although on this specific board high overpairs with a heart are higher equity hands than the hand I had). So the question really is, when I was facing the 3bet jam on the flop, what is the worst hand I call with? Do I only call with flushes and the few combos of sets/overpairs with a heart that I have, or do I also need to call with 65s? Considering that villain is a laggy/fishy player, I think it's pretty close.
Thanks for the input but I'm not sure I follow your logic. For example, if I know that villain has Ahxx on the flop, surely I want to raise after he donks into me?
Because my hand is ahead, but vulnerable. This was my concern in the hand and the reason why I raised on the flop. And I also simply have a profitable situation where I can get value from Ahxx and Khxx etc type hands. Sure, villain has already set himself a high price to draw (and would have paid less if he had checked to me instead)
The logic has to do with his bet sizing and what that usually means when someone donks into us as the PFR. It also has to do with the equity of his bluffs, and how often we're ahead if a lot of money goes in on the flop.
Smaller donks on wet boards are usually draws trying to set their own price. Smaller donks on dry boards are usually weak top pairs or strong middle pairs. Big donks on wet boards tend to be value hands that don't want the action to check through.
This isn't just a wet board. It's monotone. And V donked for 2/3 pot. That's going to indicate a strong but vulnerable made hand fairly often - typically a low flush or big over-pair with the flush suit. In this case, when V limps in from the LJ, it's probably not a big over-pair, and thus more likely to be a flush.
If we have him pegged as a LAG, I'd think it's even more likely he limped with some low SC that flopped a flush, and even less likely he's playing an over-pair with one heart this way. I'd expect a LAG to check the flop with his over-pairs, either to check-raise, or donk the turn if the flop checks through.
The thing is, we DON'T know that we're ahead on this flop. Like I said in my first reply, on this monotone board, our hand is basically just a bluff catcher. If V donked out for 1/3 pot or less, sure, we could raise for value and protection. But when he donks 2/3 pot, that looks more like strong value than a semi-bluff.
Take a look at the equity vs his 9h9s, and against his hypothetical Ah9s. His over-pairs with one heart are actually a favorite to win. His naked Ah combos aren't a huge under-dog. Those hands aren't folding when we raise his donk to 3x.
If we want those hands to fold, we need to go MUCH larger with our raise size, but doing so basically commits us to calling off if he jams. We'd be better off jamming ourselves, to get him to fold away a ton of equity.
If we think V might have some total air-ball bluffs in his range, we DON'T want to raise, because all his air-ball bluffs just fold, leaving only his strong made hands and high-equity bluffs that continue. Let's say his range is 25% semi-bluffs, 25% total air, and 50% strong made hands. If we raise flop, and he folds all his air-ball bluffs, his range on the turn is 2/3 thick value, 1/3 high-equity semi-bluffs.
It's important to remember that V doesn't know we have 65s here. Our range has a lot of big over-pairs, and some flopped flushes, as well as some sets and 2P. Hell, we could maybe have some straights here, as well as a straight-flush. When he donks for 2/3 pot, he's saying he thinks his hand is doing pretty well against that range.
And the fact is that top 2 on this board is not the top of our range. It's somewhere in the middle, ahead of our over-pairs, but behind our sets and flushes. When he donks 2/3 pot, we shouldn't worry that his bluffs and worse value might catch up. I'd be more worried that V is taking us to value-town with a better hand, and praying we boat up by the river.
The logic has to do with his bet sizing and what that usually means when someone donks into us as the PFR. It also has to do with the equity of his bluffs, and how often we're ahead if a lot of money goes in on the flop.
Smaller donks on wet boards are usually draws trying to set their own price. Smaller donks on dry boards are usually weak top pairs or strong middle pairs. Big donks on wet boards tend to be value hands that don't want the action to check through.
This isn't just a wet board. It's
Sure, I agree that the donk bet is certainly giving me some free information and setting off some alarm bells, and after he 3bet the flop I was concerned that he had flopped a small flush (although his comments before the raise also put some doubt in my mind about that).
I agree that on average most villains have a lot of strong hands when they donk for 66% pot on this flop - but for sure some LAGs will have Ahxx etc too, and it's purely those hands I wanted to target and get value from with the flop raise. But of course I should give consideration to his whole range, and not just one section of it.
Totally I take your point that I didn't know I was ahead on the flop - and vs his range of hands I imagine it's probably about 50/50 whether I'm ahead or behind. But once he 3bets the flop I eventually decided I was priced in and had little option but to call. And I agree that if he's airballing then we want him to smooth call keep him airballing.
Thanks for the detailed input, I appreciate it a lot.
Sure, I agree that the donk bet is certainly giving me some free information and setting off some alarm bells, and after he 3bet the flop I was concerned that he had flopped a small flush (although his comments before the raise also put some doubt in my mind about that).
I agree that on average most villains have a lot of strong hands when they donk for 66% pot on this flop - but for sure
I think the boldfaced part is the most salient takeaway here.
Yes, V might show up with the naked Ah, but A) he's probably not folding that hand to a 3x raise, B) we're probably better off jamming if he just has AhXx, C) he could play that as a check-raise, for max fold equity, and C) he could have a lot of other, much stronger hands, with the line he's taken.
I'm saying this as a LAG player myself. I'm generally not limping pre, generally not calling a raise when I limp, and very rarely donking with a low equity bluff if I limped, called, or limp-called pre. If I was V here, I'd have 43s a fair amount, some 22, and all the worst suited aces. In other words, if I took V's line, I'd have 65s in rough shape with every hand in my range.
All the hands you're trying to get value from, I'm either opening for a raise, or folding pre. I'm not limping in with them. This is exactly the sort of flop that would smash my limping range. And if I limped in with 22, 4h3h, or AhXh, and called your raise, I'm totally going to donk into you on this flop, expecting you to spaz out with your over-pairs and better hands.
If I did get squirrely, and somehow got to the flop with AhXx, I'm probably not donking the flop, and if I do, I'm probably not taking 2/3 pot sizing. I'd just check-call, hope to make my hand, and bluff even if I didn't, when I hold the nut blocker.
Youre not at the top of your range because its a monotone flop. Any suited hearts are above 65s. This is a product of any monotone board, which basically causes the preflop range advantage to go out the window. This is why GTO bets so small and so infrequently on monotone boards.
I think the boldfaced part is the most salient takeaway here.
Yes, V might show up with the naked Ah, but A) he's probably not folding that hand to a 3x raise, B) we're probably better off jamming if he just has AhXx, C) he could play that as a check-raise, for max fold equity, and C) he could have a lot of other, much stronger hands, with the line he's taken.
I'm saying this as a LAG player myself. I'm generally not limping pre, generally not calling a raise when I limp, and very rarely donking
Sure he's not folding the Ahxx, but my point is that I can get value from those holdings when I raise. But I agree it's more likely he has a lot of other much stronger hands with the line he's taken, and I should proceed more carefully.
It's great to get some input from a LAG player; I didn't realise that was the case. How does this style work out for you? Do you play online as well as live? For sure I see what you mean with this flop smashing a LAG's limping range - all the more reason to proceed with caution on my part I guess.
Youre not at the top of your range because its a monotone flop. Any suited hearts are above 65s. This is a product of any monotone board, which basically causes the preflop range advantage to go out the window. This is why GTO bets so small and so infrequently on monotone boards.
Sure, the dealer meant aside from flushes - his point was that I have hardly any sets on this board, after isolating preflop.
It's been a while since I read Modern Poker Theory but I thought I remembered that monotone flops are bet at quite a high frequency? Mostly because it's a polarizing board where the defender either has a very easy or very difficult time continuing on the flop (dependent predominantly on whether or not they have a high suit card that matches the board) - and most of the time they are unable to continue facing a bet.
V played it terribly, but even if with overpairs+H in his range, its a tough call.
We are a dog against any conceivable range that includes all flushes, straights, sets, and combo draws (pair+h, straight draw+h) and only the dead money even makes a call contemplatable. I think once you raise the flop you kind of have to lean to sigh call, but the flop raise itself is pretty bad.
Youre not at the top of your range because its a monotone flop. Any suited hearts are above 65s. This is a product of any monotone board, which basically causes the preflop range advantage to go out the window. This is why GTO bets so small and so infrequently on monotone boards.
Sure, the dealer meant aside from flushes - his point was that I have hardly any sets on this board, after isolating preflop.
It's been a while since I read Modern Poker Theory but I thought I remembered that monotone flops are bet at quite a high frequency? Mostly because it's a polarizing board where the defender either has a very easy or very difficult time continuing on the flop (dependent predominantly on whether or not they have a high suit card that matches the board) - and most of the tim
You oughta be raising 22-66 here at 100% frequency. Limping or folding btn with low PP would be a leak.
GTO bets 652hhh at 49% which is low.
GTO bets A65hhh at 29% frequency which is crazy low, and BB is even donking here.
Because you have more A and K (in theory) than V, you are in pretty bad shape when they come in monotone boards. In reality, they dont 3 bet their Axs Kxs at proper frequency so that part isnt as relevant, but it also means you dont have a nut advantage on the 652hhh type board, meaning youd likely wanna bet even less.
Sure he's not folding the Ahxx, but my point is that I can get value from those holdings when I raise. But I agree it's more likely he has a lot of other much stronger hands with the line he's taken, and I should proceed more carefully.
It's great to get some input from a LAG player; I didn't realise that was the case. How does this style work out for you? Do you play online as well as live? For sure I see what you mean with this flop smashing a LAG's limping range - all the more reason to procee
I only play live, not online. I'll play more LAG at 1/3, and tighten up at 2/5. How LAG I play depends on the game.
From my perspective, I'm not that loose, just more aggro than most 1/3 players. I'm raising with hands that most recs would limp-fold.
I think pre. is marginal at best, can be bad depending on the player. Yes, it's in GTO ranges after MP, but against limp callers I think it struggles to be winning (and V in MP). Yes, multiway and getting squeezed is bad but so is getting 3bet and being multiway in a bigger pot.
You are mostly hoping to bluff V out on the flop, and he has all the dominating flushes, straight draws and 5x/6x hands.
It's not like never raise or never limp or never fold ... more like it probably doesn't matter much which you pick in a vacuum.
Pre sizing seems big though, esp. when your range is this wide.
Flop seems terrible at every spot. Two pair on monotone flop is far from the nuts, if it was checked to us we can even check behind. Who knows what V was thinking but it was likely a value overplay and you put all the money in behind.
On the upside you weren't crushed and you got there twice (this is by far the best skill to have).
Yes, we only need 33% to call the shove and we have it vs. his exact hand ... his exact hand this time isn't a range though.
V played it terribly, but even if with overpairs+H in his range, its a tough call.
We are a dog against any conceivable range that includes all flushes, straights, sets, and combo draws (pair+h, straight draw+h) and only the dead money even makes a call contemplatable. I think once you raise the flop you kind of have to lean to sigh call, but the flop raise itself is pretty bad.
Yes I agree it's a tough call and against a non-LAG I can easily find the fold here. For sure I'm priced in after raising the flop, and certainly in hindsight the flop raise was a bad idea.
