Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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OK, when you engage in collective punishment, you're no longer justified in your attacks
Sure, but it makes it very hard to show in international court that Israel had the mens rea to commit collective punishment when Hamas uses civilian clothing to disguise themselves, uses human shields, and when Israel is actively facilitating international aid efforts.
Also lefties hurt their ability to argue this issue when they don’t differentiate between combatant deaths and civilian deaths, as well as use slimy tactics like counting the death of Hamas 17 year old soldiers as a “child death”.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/pakistani...
“The defendant is alleged to have planned a terrorist attack in New York City around October 7th of this year with the stated goal of slaughtering, in the name of ISIS, as many Jewish people as possible,”
Sure, but it makes it very hard to show in international court that Israel had the mens rea to commit collective punishment when Hamas uses civilian clothing to disguise themselves, uses human shields, and when Israel is actively facilitating international aid efforts.
Also lefties hurt their ability to argue this issue when they don’t differentiate between combatant deaths and civilian deaths, as well as use slimy tactics like counting the death of Hamas 17 year old soldiers as a “child death”.
In late January, I left my home in Virginia, where I work as a plastic and reconstructive surgeon and joined a group of physicians and nurses traveling to Egypt with the humanitarian aid group MedGlobal to volunteer in Gaza.
I have worked in other war zones. But what I witnessed during the next 10 days in Gaza was not war — it was annihilation
“I asked the nurse, what’s the history? She said that they were brought in a couple of hours ago. They had sniper shots to the brain. They were seven or eight years old,” she said.
The Canadian doctor’s heart sank. These were not the first children treated by Alvi who she was told were targeted by Israeli soldiers, and she knew the damage a single high-calibre bullet could do to a fragile young body.
“They were not able to talk, paraplegic. They were literally lying down as vegetables on those beds. They were not the only ones. I saw even small children with direct sniper shot wounds to the head as well as in the chest. They were not combatants, they were small children,” said Alvi.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/a...
This goes on for ever. Recently saw an interview with an American doctor who said he saw a child who was executed with a bullet to the head at least once a day.
Haaretz reported a video and some photos of prisoner abuse
That dog was really terrorizing them by barking loudly. Israel probably didn’t even check if those prisoners have dog allergies!
It is interesting how Hamas has tons of videos of civilians being tortured/murdered in the streets by being shot and having their bones broken by pipes; and the other side has "torture" videos of dogs barking at guys laying on the ground.
And of course certain ideologues in this thread are agnostic about the former, and completely outraged by the latter. It is kind of wild how certain posters have been making outrageous allegations in this thread accusing the IDF with no evidence provided at all, except "witness reports" and staged photos after the fact. And then there is finally evidence and it is mostly a nothing burger, especially compared to what the side he supports does regularly.
Dun, I looked into that Ihab Fasfous. he has been arrested numerous times going back to 2016 and claimed on one of the occasions (I think 2019) that he was struck multiple times. since the start of this war of extermination and plausible genocide he has been reporting anti-Hamas videos openly.
its kinda weird that it took them so long to brutally torture and murder him. ofc, we dont know if he has been tortured, murdered, or even arrested by Hamas. the initial source was some IDF account.
which kinda makes me wonder why an IDF Arabic account would be the first to know about this guys apprehension. proly nothing to see there.
but, I do wonder how long a pro-Hamas person would last in Israel.
speaking of which, I didnt realize who the eyewitness to the murder of the peaceful American that I mentioned here https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
its a well known Israeli anti-apartheid activist who has been arrested multiple times by Israel and imprisoned twice. I think he was recently arrested and facing charges as well.
seems like such a free and open democracy.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/a...
This goes on for ever. Recently saw an interview with an American doctor who said he saw a child who was executed with a bullet to the head at least once a day.
No one has denied that children have died in this war, which is tragic. But when we're talking about mens rea, we have to take the totality of Israel's actions into account. We can have the discussion on whether or not Israel needs to be much more careful with how they handle civilian casualties, especially the instances where they have allegedly had snipers shoot at kids, and that can be a worthy discussion to be had. However no one on the Israeli side is ever going to want to hear that from people who deny the depravity of Hamas, deny that Oct 7th was illegitimate, deny that the war is a just war, deny that Israel has attempted to facilitate international aid at every turn, denied that Israel has for the vast majority of sniper deaths been killing Hamas fighters and that most of the civilian especially child death is due to either shrapnel or legitimate bombing campaigns, etc etc etc.
The guardian article is very biased in the sense that it tries to use the most salacious anecdotes (again coming from eyewitnesses) without ever trying to give a real legal analysis of whether any of what is alleged is even prima facie enough evidence to secure an indictment against Israel, let alone enough to convict. It's horrible, awful stories, but guess what? War is horrible and awful. There are many just wars that would never count as genocide, and even what people see as unjust wars that don't count as genocide, that have had a lot of civilian casualties.
Furthermore, the genocide accusations have started from the very beginning of the war, which undermined Israel's ability to end the war as quickly as possible. Hamas's PR campaign has been fairly successful for the goal they aimed to achieve, which is to prolong the war and throw citizen after citizen at Israel, to the point where they get Hezbollah and Iran to join in. The ultimate goal is that the West Bank also becomes a front for attacks, which is why Israel is having to go in there now and fight off insurgent jihadi forces.
No one has denied that children have died in this war, which is tragic. But when we're talking about mens rea, we have to take the totality of Israel's actions into account. We can have the discussion on whether or not Israel needs to be much more careful with how they handle civilian casualties, especially the instances where they have allegedly had snipers shoot at kids, and that can be a worthy discussion to be had. However no one on the Israeli side is ever going to want to hear that from pe
"child death" for the large part are 16-17y old boys which fight for hamas or materially support it.
+ it's not obvious reported age of dead people is correct, there is a lot of gaming around the age of 18 same with asylum seekers reaching western countries
"child death" for the large part are 16-17y old boys which fight for hamas or materially support it.
+ it's not obvious reported age of dead people is correct, there is a lot of gaming around the age of 18 same with asylum seekers reaching western countries
In the article linked it talks about 8-10 year olds being head shot. Personally I have not seen anything corroborated but also haven't looked too hard.
multiple Western doctors/nurses from multiple hospitals across the strip from multiple trips have described the same thing to the Western press. thats about all the confirmation you will get.
so the mainstream Western press is now starting to say the same thing that EI, Mondoweiss, Grey Zone etc said 6 months ago.
Israel killed a lot of civilians on Oct 7. maybe they are antisemitic too.
Sure budday
me too, I read that all of the supposed child deaths in Gaza are actually 19 year old Hamas Nazi Antifa SuperSoldiers.
me too, I read that all of the supposed child deaths in Gaza are actually 19 year old Hamas Nazi Antifa SuperSoldiers.
The term they use for what you are describing is Nukba. And of course not all, just a lot.
And the 16-19 year olds aren't the supersoldiers. They are the bullet fodder Hamas sends out to get the press headlines it wants.
In the article linked it talks about 8-10 year olds being head shot. Personally I have not seen anything corroborated but also haven't looked too hard.
We are 11 months into an urban "war" where everyone walks around with a camera and Israel troops are being followed and video'd/recorded non stop; because there is such a large audience to catch them doing anything wrong.
So if we got this far and there is no evidence but "eyewitness reports" for large scale atrocities that are supposedly being committed, I think a fair amount of skepticism is very warranted.
So the western media is completely biased and untrustworthy until it’s corroborating something Victor believes.
yes ducy
"child death" for the large part are 16-17y old boys which fight for hamas or materially support it.
+ it's not obvious reported age of dead people is correct, there is a lot of gaming around the age of 18 same with asylum seekers reaching western countries
Yes I know this, I was referring to the article which seemed to do less equivocating on that term, and made no reference to combatants as children.
If we were talking about raw death statistics rather than individual cases this point would be salient.
IDF shot a 13 year old girl through the window of her house not long after Aysenur Eygi was murdered after a prayer meeting.
Also on Saturday, mourners gathered in the West Bank town of Qaryut, about 20 miles south of Beita, for the funeral of 13-year-old Bana Laboum, who was also shot and killed the day before after Israeli forces arrived in her village. Her father, 47-year-old Amjad Bakar, knelt beside his daughter’s freshly filled grave.
