LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
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You're putting a lot of effort into trying to misunderstand.
lebron WAS worse at mid-range when he took more volume
jordan WAS better at threes when he took more volume
Again, none of the things I say are subjective opinion - I'm merely pointing out the historical record that you have been trained to overlook, or simply overlook.
Who cares about a 90% FT shooter that only shoots 1 FT per game.
At high volume, Kobe's jumpshooting efficiency was elite and destroys Lebron's, who Lebron shot like trash a
You still haven't completed my really simple request.
Imagine using 37% on the short 3pt line as a huge plus
Tell me who the top 10 scorers were from 1968.
aka your request is meaningless - the reason that I posted the jumpshooting stats was to show the combination of VOLUME and efficiency - high jumpshooting volume allows a player to be considered a jumpshooter, assuming the volume comes with good efficiency as well.
Unfortunately, Lebron cannot have good efficiency at high jumpshooting volume, so he doesn't have high jumpshooting volume and therefore must be a lesser skillset entirely (ball-dominator) - this lesser skillset has weaker chemistry and teams and therefore ranks lower all-time than other skillsets.
Just so we are clear..
Jordan would be better at 3s if he took more volume. LeBron would be worse at mid ranges if he took more volume.
Just so we are clear..
lebron WAS worse at mid-range when he took more volume
jordan WAS better at threes when he took more volume
since lebron was worse at mid-range when he took more volume, we know Lebron couldn't perform as well in prior eras where more mid-range was required to shoot over packed paints.. otoh, since jordan was better at threes when he took more volume, we know he would shoot better at today's volumes and today's format that produces a bunch of open threes for literally everyone.,
Tell me who the top 10 scorers were from 1968.
aka your request is meaningless - the reason that I posted the jumpshooting stats was to show the combination of VOLUME and efficiency - high jumpshooting volume allows a player to be considered a jumpshooter, assuming the volume comes with good efficiency as well.
Unfortunately, Lebron cannot have good efficiency at high jumpshooting volume, so he doesn't have high jumpshooting volume and therefore must be a lesser skillset entirely (ball-dominator)
Simple request and you won't do it.
Let me make the request again. Please give career stats for Kobe and LeBron on jump shots.
I guess we all learnt that LeBron is a better jump shooter than Kobe today.
Lebron had no jumpshooting volume, so no... But it might make sense to post the career stats for seasons above a baseline volume of say, 1000 attempts.
Lebron simply isn't a jumpshooter by virtue of low jumpshooting volume, while low efficiency at even average volumes ensures that he mostly drives - driving is his game because he isn't capable of shooting mostly jumpers, due to low efficiency at even average volumes.
Otoh, Kobe has great efficiency at high jumpshooting volumes, so he could shoot mostly jumpers, which allowed more assisted buckets, ball movement, and better fits (playing off of in-out bigs)..
Ultimately, massive samples show that jumpshooters like Curry, Kobe or MJ produced better chemistry, so they have higher team ceilings (3-peat) and win with less (winning with 2nd options that were worse than Love or Bosh).
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Lebron was arguably NOT the best player in all these series:
2007 1st Round
Jamison............... 32 on 48%
Lebron'................ 28 on 43%
2007 Finals
Parker................ 25 on 47%... 3 TO's... 16.2 gmsc
Lebron............... 22 on 36%... 6 TO's... 10.6 gmsc
2008 2nd Round
Garnett............... 20 on 55%.. 1 TO's.. 17.6 gmsc
Lebron................ 26 on 35%.. 6 TO's.. 17.5 gmsc
2011 2nd Round
Wade............... 30 on 50%
Lebron............. 28 on 50%
2011 ECF
Bosh'................ 23 on 60%
Lebron............. 26 on 45%
2011 Finals
Dirk.................. 26 on 42%
Lebron'............ 18 on 48%
2012 Finals
Durant............ 31 on 55%
Lebron............ 29 on 47%
2014 ECF
George'........... 24 on 45% (faced 1 on 5 coverage)
Lebron............ 23 on 56% (had equal-scoring partner in Wade)
2016 1st Round
Kyrie............... 28 on 47%
Lebron'........... 23 on 48%
2017 Finals
Durant.......... 35 on 56%
Lebron.......... 34 on 56%
2018 Finals
Durant.......... 29 on 53%... FMVP
Lebron.......... 34 on 53%
2020 1st Round
AD................. 30 on 57%
Lebron'......... 27 on 60%
2020 2nd Round
AD................. 25 on 60%
Lebron'......... 26 on 51%
2020 WCF
AD................. 30 on 55%
Lebron'......... 25 on 50%
2010 (last 3 games)
Rondo............... 22 on 52%
Lebron.............. 21 on 34% (quit and lost as -500 favorite to 50-win fossils)
#fakegoat
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man you are really digging into the hate with bullshit like this
2017 Finals
Durant.......... 35 on 56%
Lebron.......... 34 on 56%
2018 Finals
Durant.......... 29 on 53%... FMVP
Lebron.......... 34 on 53%
Some others also just stupid, and basketball is more than just scoring.
The best one is your 2010 last 3 games, if the narrative doesn't fit, shrink the sample size until it does. Maybe he went 0-4 in game 4s between 7:47PM-7:52PM on the west coast on Tuesdays.
The point is that an argument can be made that Lebron wasn't the best player in many series based on the most important category in the sport (scoring)... Otoh, there was no argument possible that Jordan wasn't the best player since he led every series by 10-30 ppg over all teammates and led all opponents by healthy margins as well..
The only exception was Jordan's very first series where his 29/7/9 was possibly outplayed by Cummings, who outscored Jordan.. So Jordan has 1 series that he arguably wasn't the best player, while Lebron has dozens.
The best one is your 2010 last 3 games, if the narrative doesn't fit, shrink the sample size until it does.
Part of the reason that Lebron has weaker teams and lost so much more than MJ was because he lost in so many more WAYS than Jordan did.
Jordan never lost with favored talent, while Lebron lost as the preseason favorite or homecourt 7 times.. He was also swept 4-0 a bunch - this includes losing 4 straight 4th quarter leads to get swept by the 23' Nuggets - that's an unprecedented way to lose.
In addition to losing with favored talent or getting swept 4-0, Lebron also lost via bed-wetting, which MJ never did either.. Lebron lost a 7-game series by averaging 26 on 35% with 6 TO per game in the 08' ECSF - this proved that those Cavs were a good team, since they almost won despite Lebron being a massive negative.
Lebron lost with an all-star teammate and lost 3 times with 2 all-star teammates (11', 14', 17'), while also being lottery in his prime (19') before AD arrived to lift them to champion.
Truly great players like Isiah, MJ, and Shaq can make All-NBA and be seen as great without the winning spotlight of titles.
Otoh, players that aren't truly great need the winning spotlight of titles to be seen as great and get All-NBA - this includes Pau, Klay, Pippen, Gimobili, Parker and many more "carried" sidekicks - they needed the winning spotlight of titles to be seen as great and make All-NBA, or in Tayshaun Prince's case, all-defense - here's Prince saying that the winning spotlight got him recognized (here).
The previous post deals in correlations, not absolutes
Guys like Wade, MJ, Shaq, AD, Isiah - they were going to get numerous All-NBA no matter what
But guys like Klay, Pippen, Pau??????... Not so much.... They needed the winning spotlight of titles to be seen as great and get All-NBA - the historical timeline shows this.. If they were losing on the Wizards, they might not get any All-NBA and certainly not anywhere near what they got.
man you are really digging into the hate with bullshit like this
Some others also just stupid, and basketball is more than just scoring.
The best one is your 2010 last 3 games, if the narrative doesn't fit, shrink the sample size until it does. Maybe he went 0-4 in game 4s between 7:47PM-7:52PM on the west coast on Tuesdays.
It's consensus that Lebron was outplayed in various playoff series by Dirk, Wade, Durant, Kyrie, Parker, Garnett, AD and Joker
Meanwhile, Jordan outplayed Bird, Isiah, Magic, Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Payton, and many more.. And he led all teammates by 10-30 ppg in every series
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MJ dunked on Hakeem many times but Hakeem was scared to jump and visibly COWERED every time:
MJ had many tip dunks over Hakeem
Anyone that doesn't think Luka would do this to Hakeem doesn't know basketball:
Since rim-protecting bigs can be brought away from the rim and nullified, they're often obsolete in today's format,.. With bigs out of the equation, MJ is the greatest defender ever by virtue of transferring over eras better.
Btw, there's a drop-step poster on Hakeem from 89' or 90' that I can't find but it's the coldest one yet.. Will post when I come across it
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hakeem sure looks super quick and light on his feet... smh...😃 ... hakeem was a CLUNKY mf...
[quote=fellforafraud]
You can't blame 2014 on Lebron because Wade was a fossil and finished
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2014 ECFhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-pacers.html......... 22.8 on 56%Basketball-Reference.com2014 NBA Eastern Conference Finals - Heat vs. Pacers | Basketball-Reference.comhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-pacers.html........... 19.8 on 55%Basketball-Reference.com2014 NBA Eastern Conference Finals - Heat vs. Pacers | Basketball-Reference.com
2014 ECF - Clutch-Time Stats
Wade............ 4.5 pts on 80% (2.0 for 2.5 fga)
Lebron.......... 4.5 pts on 50% (1.5 for 3.0 fga)
^^^ Wade was great in the 2014 ECF by virtue of being equal-scoring partner to Lebron and the "closer" (shown above) - he was an all-star from 2011-2016 and nearly carried the Heat to the 16' ECF after Lebron left, despite being old at that point.
So Wade simply had a bad series in the 14' Finals, and that's the critical issue because MJ STILL WON WITH THAT - it's just another distinction between MJ and Lebron - MJ routinely beat top teams with bed-wetting sidekicks, while Lebron never did.. Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS or Finals teams with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, and he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried the scoring load on the championship level).
Wasn't this basically put to rest in 2011 and just became more obvious over time? Too much number crunching itt. Jordan is unparalleled and you all know it. I can't imagine that anyone arguing for LeBron is new to the debate. It has to be people who took that stance years ago and refuse to admit defeat.
I voted for Jordan in whatever year I voted. By about 2018 I had changed my mind and probably would vote Lebron since then.
But I don't mind the idea of Jordan as GOAT at all. It's a valid opinion. But Lebron is definitely the best player of the post Jordan era. And yet the guy who makes 90% of the posts in this thread thinks Kobe is #2 all time and has Lebron at something like number 11. That's what 90% of the posts in this thread are actually about now.
You can make the argument that LeBron isn't the best post Jordan era player (I'd disagree), but Kobe isn't the one I'd make a case for.
Kobe has a strong case for 15th GOAT to be fair.
Practically every celebrity at some point said Diddy's parties were the best. Diddy was given the key to New York city and there was a holiday in Miami named after him. I'm guessing that happened when he was on the Heat?
For many years, it was understood that excessive ball-dominance was bad, which is why ball-handlers in the 80's and 90's like Isiah, Magic, Penny, or Hill averaged 20 ppg instead of 30 like today's ball-handlers.
The high-scoring, point guard skillset is a recent thing.. It imposes spot-up roles that prevents elite chemistry, so it isn't capable of producing unbeatable teams that mostly win for stretches.. Instead, high-scoring ball-dominance mostly loses regardless of cast and cannot compete effectively on the championship level (22-33 Finals record and -86 plus/minus in the Finals).
Since high-scoring ball-dominators produce the worst chemistry that needs the most help, the best ball-dominators like Magic/Lebron/Oscar rank below the best bigs, who need less help to win (Russell/Wilt/KAJ/Duncan/Shaq)... Both skillsets rank below expert jumpshooters, who produce the best chemistry and need the least help to win (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird,).
The LeBron led Cavs beat the #1 seeded, 60 win Atlanta Hawks in the 2015 Eastern conference finals. The top players for the Hawks in that series:
Paul Millsap
Jeff Teague
DeMarre Carroll
Al Horford
Kent Bazemore
Mike Scott
Kyle Korver
Shelvin Mack
The first paragraph was not a typo. This is the team that won 60 games and was the #1 seed in the Eastern conference that yet. LeBron truly dominated, and made a bunch of finals in a row, in an elite era for the East. He probably would have done pretty well even if he did not team up with the other two best players in the conference.
