Israel/Palestine thread

No, the snake without head still moves for a while

I hope I am wrong, but I actually think IRI/Hezbollah will continue as a malign presence in the region, to the good of no one. And I think western leftists, addicted to antisemitism and their own perceptions of "The Resistance" as some noble cause, will facilitate this malignancy continuing.

IRI for sure, but Hezbollah could be decimated in it's capability to act, we will know soon enough

They aren't going away, but they will be downgraded for a while.

I'm not sure leftists actually facilitate them much. They don't give them money or arms, and no one really cares what they think.

I was thinking more at the government level. Leftist governments (including our own for much of the last 20 years) have facilitated the growth of IRI/Hezbollah's influence in the region due to policies friendly towards these entities.

I read an interesting theory on Twitter that IRI may be trying to make some sort of deal with the US, where they give up their ambitions in Syria/Lebanon/Palestine (which would include abandoning Hezbollah) in exchange for assurances we wont go after them (or let Israel) at home. Dont know if it is true at all, but interesting.

I've no doubt that us leftist will be responsible for everythign and anything bad that follows netanyahu's solution over the next few decades.

Lets hope we're not very powerful

Giving money to UNRWA is giving money to terrorists.

UNRWA is Hamas

People are celebrating around the world the end of Hezbollah!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WBjbS0qB9Q&t=429s

YouTube

🚨 LIVE: Middle East Celebrate The End Of Hezbollah

I feel like you are shifting the goalposts here. As much as I agree that Western Leftists have embraced anti-zionism and that anti-zionism becomes antisemitism in certain applications if you start to support terrorist groups as a way of "resistance" against Israel and "Israeli apartheid", I really really don't see how this has anything to do with the way that governments have been acting towards Israel. One of the main issues is that Netanyahu has created a situation where a two state solution is impossible, and he constantly rebukes calls for a two state solution, thus increasing the intractability of the conflict. I don't disagree that there is a moral responsibility for any terrorist groups to lay down their arms, and that the way you should go about arguing for a two-state solution is by creating a territory that is prosperous and democratic, but I do think that Western governments have been critical of Netanyahu's leadership of Israel for really good reasons.

So we can't conflate all criticism of Israel with anti-zionism. A two state solution is an inherently zionist solution. It's people that are arguing that Israel has a right to exist and this right to exist must be acknowledged by Palestinians before any solution is brought about. Netanyahu doesn't even try to hide his contempt for bringing about a diplomatic solution to a lot of these issues.

These are all separate from whether insane leftists and isolationist rightists should be allowed to have any say over our foreign policy, which they obviously shouldn't and haven't. And clearly they are also not the ones responsible for Hamas or Hezbollah or the IRI.

The conflict wouldn't end with a 2 states solution.

It would just become a normal was between two states.

And the conflict doesn't end if "Palestinians" are satisfied, many other groups just don't want Jews in the areas.

The conflict only ends if everyone who doesn't want Jews in the area is either killed, or scared so much that they will never even think to act upon their hatred of Jews.

Not necessarily. By having relations normalized and building diplomatic ties, we don't need them to stop hating Jews, we just need them to see some kind of advantage to having good relations to the state of Israel. The hatred of Jews will go away over time if we can create that diplomatic relationship. Also, it works the other way. By having Jews seen as the oppressors of Palestine, it creates a situation where people might feel their views are justified. If Palestinians had their own state, then they will have to move on to weaker, more nebulous reasons to hate Israel. Also if Palestine suddenly becomes an economic powerhouse, which they have the intellectual ability as well as the potential for tourism, and they become close trading partners with Israel, it would possibly create an avenue to building peace throughout the region.

Palestine will have to make big concessions in order to make this happen though. It will have to be like United States and Japan after WW2. No standing military, no political parties that profess jihad, lots of oversight over their new government, etc.

Israel was attacked before it controlled Gaza and the West Bank. By all neighbors, intended to genocide them.

Including Egypt and Jordan, right? Which are now a de facto ally in everything but name? Doesn't this actually justify my point that these relations are not set in stone?

If only they were allies.

They aren't as belligerent as others yes.

Ofc relations aren't set in stone, but you need people who don't hate Jews irrationally. With them it's normal diplomacy.

With irrational actors only violence can work

Such idealism gets in the way of building a stable global order. From their perspective, we hate Arabs irrationally and that's why we don't give them a state. We need people to come to the table before we can ever get to the point of stabilizing. Look at the IRA vs Britain. The way things were going in the early 20th century up until maybe the end of the 20th century, we never would have thought that relations could be almost completely normalized and stable.

I actually think your point of view is empirically wrong.

Not sure what you mean with "we" but if you mean the west, we don't hate Arabs which is why Saudi Arabia, the most powerful Arab country, has been an ally of the USA for many decades.

IRA vs Britain got mostly solved by very low fertility (which is why I think Ukraine vs Russia is solvable in 30-40 years).

You need young men without good prospects to keep waging war. With collpasing fertility the few men have options and they don't want to die for your cultural things, they want a job and a woman

poty

I agree we don’t hate Arabs… you clearly did not understand the point of my post… I’m saying that if we want to take this view that intractable conflicts can only be solved between two rational agents, then there will always be a reason for one side to call the other side irrational.

Coming to the table is in itself normative. It presumes that a diplomatic solution is possible, that communication is good, that you could conceivably make progress by coming together. That’s why it’s a good starting point for international relations.

Israel Knesset literally voted againts a 2 state solution a few months ago. this is absolute fantasy land..

Oh right the very reasonable and magnanimous Israelis who are in the process of murdering millions of innocents while running rape torture camps are going to graciously grant human rights to the people they have been genociding for 80 years if the oppressed just act right. Fantasy land.

That's a complete red herring. Even if the Knesset wanted to, they can't unilaterally decide that the Palestinian people are being given a state. They need some kind of state actor to do the negotiating with. Until there is some way of representing Palestinians politically with some kind of statesman or delegation, then of course we will not have a two state solution. Furthermore, the Palestinians have to be willing to make concessions, such as no right of return, for it to even be remotely viable.

It's not a hard concept to understand.

Your response doesn't really address my point.

Normalizing relations with Iran (including looking the other way towards a large amount of black market trade, much of it with nations formally embargoing Iran) and allowing them to fund and transfer large amounts of weapons to Arab proxy groups is a choice western nations have made over the last 20 years.

And constantly telling Israel to allow belligerent actors who promise to destroy Israel to stockpile weapons on their border, and ultimately attack them, is also a choice Western nations have made.

And for good or bad, since 10/7 Israel has decided not to take counsel from Western nations and to neutralize the belligerent actors attacking them, and here we are.

And I am saying I am not optimistic that the West will stop making decisions to appease Iran and its proxies, and I am equally not optimistic for the future of Lebanon because of this. But I hope I am wrong.

And I dont for a second feel IRI, Hezbollah, Houthis or anyone else in the Axis of Resistance gives the slightest **** for the well-being of the Palestinian people, and merely views them as meat to throw in the Israeli grinder for their own benefit.

well Arafat tried it and then Rabin told his people its cool guys dont worry we will never let them have an actual state lolol dumbasses. but even that was too scary for the ruling class so they just murdered Rabin and then murdered Arafat just to be safe.

Palestine has a lot of statesman but Israel keeps killing them or imprisoning them.

its fantasy land. Lucium has a more lucid picture of the situation. so did Schlitz for that matter. kill them all or lose eventually, and by lose I mean Israel stops existing as an ethno-aparthied-state. I dont mean the fearmongering idiotic lies about killing all the Jewish people and driving them out.

so they are conservatively at about 250k right now. just another 10 or 12 million to go (including LEbanon ofc) and you should be fine.