Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Israeli papers reported possibly 200k dead in Feb. the Lancelet article said conservatively 200k dead in mid Jun.
actually they said around 100k on Feb 28th
it was Ralph Nader that said 200k like a week later
I got them mixed up.
Gotchya, I thought you meant there was some kind of report but this was just some guy (a professor, but just some guy nonetheless) making a guess as to what he thought the dead using prior probabilities of excess mortality in other wars. This was written in February before the surge of aid that happened in March (although there was still tons of aid coming in). I'm still thinking that there is a symmetry breaker there between this war and other wars which is that the huge amount of aid that is coming into Gaza is going to make it so that those prior probabilities are less relevant.
https://gaza-aid-data.gov.il/main/
The other thing he said is that Hamas is undercounting the death toll. Now I thought that most critics of Israel are claiming that Hamas is accurate, but if they're supposedly undercounting, why should we trust their numbers at all? It seems epistemically bankrupt to claim both things at the same time.
it was Ralph Nader that said 200k like a week later
I got them mixed up.
Well Ralph Nader's opinion piece was just unhinged. He literally pulled the number out of thin air.
From accounts of people on the ground, videos and photographs of deadly episode after episode, plus the resultant mortalities from blocking or smashing the crucial necessities of life, a more likely estimate, in my appraisal, is that at least 200,000 Palestinians must have perished by now and the toll is accelerating by the hour.
I read that UNRWA is being seriously considered for the Nobel Peace Prize. To this I say if you are going to go the troll route, you might as well go all the way and select Sinwar.
I imagine most Americans critical of Israel agree that Hamas is a despicable organization and that Palestinians are not blameless. That’s basically a forgone conclusion that doesn’t need to be debated in most circles. The fact that the American government supports Israel and much of the media is sympathetic to Israel is why the critical commentary focuses on that. That’s not any different from America’s past wars.
Why wouldn’t you be hyper focused on whether your government and your taxes were b
Our taxes are also being spent on the Palestinian's forever war to conquer Israel.
Also, Israel politicians and policies will come and go, but Hamas will always be Hamas, and as long as they are there, there literally is no hope for the situation to improve.
80 years of putting pressure on Israel and enabling, ignoring and excusing Palestinian dysfunctional behavior is how we got here. By definition, continuing this policy would be insanity.
You call the two state solution a fantasy and then type out this expansionist screed that will never happen and would probably cause every nation in the middle east to declare war on israel? Seriously?
This is the type of attitude that will perpetuate the violence. I agree it's not gonna happen but it is by far the most common sense solution. Israel would never permit the two state solution that is being proposed by the world. They know it would mean the death of Israel. Ironically, Israel gaining sovereignty over the area would benefit the Arabs. Certainly things aren't going well for them now. Up until the early 1900's this whole area was a dump. Then the Jews moved in and cleaned things up. They built up the infrastructure. They created a booming economy. It wasn't until this time that Arabs saw what was happening and decided to take advantage to this upgrade of living. This is not about expansionism, it's about securing the safety of all people. At some point the Arabs will have to realize that resistance is futile but a prosperous future is still on the table.
This is the type of attitude that will perpetuate the violence. I agree it's not gonna happen but it is by far the most common sense solution. Israel would never permit the two state solution that is being proposed by the world. They know it would mean the death of Israel. Ironically, Israel gaining sovereignty over the area would benefit the Arabs. Certainly things aren't going well for them now. Up until the early 1900's this whole area was a dump. Then the Jews moved in and cleaned things up.
I’m not going to meme on the “resistance is futile” line at the end. I’m not really interested in litigating the historical grievances on each side, because it’s just going to wind up in a stalemate of who really deserves what based on when you want to start the timeline.
What I will say is that despite the horrific social and economic policies of Hamas, the Palestinian people had schools, hospitals, doctors, lawyers, small business owners, libraries, etc prior to Oct 7th. I refuse to believe that such a people is fundamentally incapable of peace and is destined for eternal terrorism. I also think at the bottom of this is a conflict that can have a peaceful solution no matter how dire it is right now.
But at the same time I am not going to undermine Israel’s right to existence. I just hope Israel isn’t biting off more than it can chew in pursuit of conquest, and that it really is doing what it’s doing in order to promote its own peace and security. Right now my confidence in the regime is extremely low.
why would my opinion matter? Im not Palestinian nor have family there.
I would imagine it is better to fight back rather than slowly get genocided while enslaved. but again, thats not my call.
Don't you think that the fighting back has created the deteriorated conditions the Arabs are living in now?
Double Standards and Distortions: How th...
the Times’ prized cover story was built on shaky foundations, with the paper dismissing assurances from hospitals and hotlines that they had gotten no reports of sexual violence, relying instead on politicized sources with a record of debunked atrocity claims.
I’m not going to meme on the “resistance is futile” line at the end. I’m not really interested in litigating the historical grievances on each side, because it’s just going to wind up in a stalemate of who really deserves what based on when you want to start the timeline.
What I will say is that despite the horrific social and economic policies of Hamas, the Palestinian people had schools, hospitals, doctors, lawyers, small business owners, libraries, etc prior to Oct 7th. I refuse to believe tha
The resistance has only cost lives and further reduced the quality of their lives. I get their grievance and I get their hate but at some point enough is enough.
Israel is simply addressing an ongoing threat from Gaza and from the north. Perhaps they will attempt to decapitate the head of the Iranian leadership. I think this is a perfect opportunity to neuter all threats. It won't be easy and it will be painful but it must be done.
I don't believe there will be a peaceful solution. There are far too many religious fanatics on both sides. This is how Abrahamic religions have always dealt with things.
It sounds like those murderous kidnapers aren't so bad after all.
Don't you think that the fighting back has created the deteriorated conditions the Arabs are living in now?
The goal is to wear down support for Israel in the long term. The reason they want to do this is because existing in a state of indignity while others are living a US-subsidized first world lifestyle on what you believe to be your land sucks. Of course this will require huge sacrifices, but given the support from young American voters, they're definitely going in the right direction, and thus they have morale in spite of their insanely bad conditions.
If this keeps up, when the current Gen Zers are 60, the US might be embargoing Israel, let alone funding them.
What I will say is that despite the horrific social and economic policies of Hamas, the Palestinian people had schools, hospitals, doctors, lawyers, small business owners, libraries, etc prior to Oct 7th. I refuse to believe that such a people is fundamentally incapable of peace and is destined for eternal terrorism. I also think at the bottom of this is a conflict that can have a peaceful solution no matter how dire it is right now.
But at the same time I am not going to undermine IsraelÂ’s rig
There are a lot of perverse incentive structures in place; and I would not expect anything to improve until things change dramatically on this front. And I would count UNRWA as a big part of the problem.
Framing Israel's actions as "conquest" is silly IMO. The entire contested land area we are talking about is actually very small. Netanyahu isn't the second coming of Alexander the Great.
According to Google, Israel has "occupied" around 25,000 acres in the West Bank. By comparison, counting Crimea, Russia on the other hand is controlling around 40 MILLION acres in Ukraine.
The goal is to wear down support for Israel in the long term. The reason they want to do this is because existing in a state of indignity while others are living a US-subsidized first world lifestyle on what you believe to be your land sucks. Of course this will require huge sacrifices, but given the support from young American voters, they're definitely going in the right direction, and thus they have morale in spite of their insanely bad conditions.
If this keeps up, when the current Gen Zers
I get the idea of wearing down support for Israel, possibly creating a better outcome for a lot of people by taking some rather large sacrifices but in practice, the idea is idiotic.
At best, you'll have about 500K dead by next year, many who weren't living in peril, and the worst case scenario, WW3, you could be in the range of 100-200 million (20m in ww1, 75m ww2) and the US benefiting exponentially from it.
The hope of sacrificing likely millions of folks, who weren't directly affected by any of this on the hopes that some Gen Zers 50 years from now might think differently sounds about as strategically sound as what Hamas has done.
...But more importunately, no such organization or army should have the right to make that choice on their behalf and risk the lives of millions of others on their idiotic whim - which is the most charitable stance you can take for Hamas.
The goal is to wear down support for Israel in the long term. The reason they want to do this is because existing in a state of indignity while others are living a US-subsidized first world lifestyle on what you believe to be your land sucks.
That may be a good enough reason to kill people or risk death. But not if it includes children. I think most people would agree with me.
That may be a good enough reason to kill people or risk death. But not if it includes children. I think most people would agree with me.
You understand most of the "children' we are talking about are 16-19 year old males, who make up a giant % of the Hamas fighting force, and traditionally in human history have been a large part of guerrilla forces. So no, I am pretty confident Hamas does not believe the people they are literally recruiting to fight for them shouldn't be risking death.
And what is going on in this war is actually pretty tame by Islamists standards. In the Iran-Iraq war, the IRI recruited teenage boys to run on the battlefield to set off mines to clear the way for their tanks.
There are a lot of perverse incentive structures in place; and I would not expect anything to improve until things change dramatically on this front. And I would count UNRWA as a big part of the problem.
Framing Israel's actions as "conquest" is silly IMO. The entire contested land area we are talking about is actually very small. Netanyahu isn't the second coming of Alexander the Great.
According to Google, Israel has "occupied" around 25,000 acres in the West Bank. By comparison, counting
I was moreso arguing against mongidig’s idea that Israel should pursue expansionist policies, but yeah I could have worded that better and understand it’s a small area of land they are trying to expand into. I still think they shouldn’t try to expand at all, but I appreciate the correction.
it is over analyzing the Hamas goals and objectives, the idea that they are targeting young western public opinion.
that is maybe more in line with IRI and Qatar methods.
hamas short-, medium- and long-term objectives are stated clearly in their charter, public discourse and in every intel we ever gathered from them, and goes as far back as1987- an uncompromising war against israel till our destruction.
Trying to rationalize Hamas actions threw western liberal way of thinking is futile.
Latest episode of So That’s What They Actually Think…
Ayelet Shaked is not a current Knesset member, as her party got miniscule amount of votes, so this is the first dishonest part of this post. Secondly, even tough this post has quats, she completley denies having said that and threatened to sue a politican that accused her of this. she continues to explain she cries for every mother and child who dies at war, israeli or not. and im not a supporter of her by a mile.
I hate the tactic of putting a quote in a meme. I feel like it’s almost always either an out of context quote or an exaggeration.
Also thank god Luciom isn’t here because he’d probably call that quote based.
Israel forces arrest 5 Israeli arabs ISIS members who planned an attack in order to blow up the Azrieli towers in Tel Aviv (the biggest commercial buldings in Israel).
Victor- lets spin that one against us.
