Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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30593 Replies
Erm practising extreme defense. What an idea.
It needs a political commitment to a political solution so a non starter for the moment .
The US practices restrained offense, extreme defense, and loses all of its wars. Which is fine. Our wars are all thousands of miles and oceans away from our home soil; and even when we lose wars we win because it feeds our economic machine.
Israel is fighting an existential war for survival and cant afford to lose. So we will see if such a strategy works better for Israel than it does for the US. I am not optimistic.
In terms of national survival, Israel can't lose, since it is the most capable military power in the region. And the political classes that currently dominate Israel thrive on the conflict. It keeps them in business and provides cover for the ongoing expropriations in the West Bank, or 'Judea and Samaria' as they like to call it.
Seems strange that the whole world loses its mind over a land area equivalent to Wales (Israel) plus Shropshire and Herefordshire (the West Bank), but that's religion, e
Really dangerous thinkign foir israel. They may maintain their military advantage but that may well not be enough to prevent the country suffering a similar fate to Gaza. The next few decades are going to see the rise of robotic/drone/ai tech in endless varieties that will be cheap, readily available to terrorists and not need to be controlled from veryr close locations. They may not be stoppable with military advantage and relying on always having sufficient tech advanatge may not be enough.
This is coming to the whole world but Israel most of all needs political solutions rather than fostering so many who are going to feel very justified in 'defending themselves'
The US practices restrained offense, extreme defense, and loses all of its wars. Which is fine. Our wars are all thousands of miles and oceans away from our home soil; and even when we lose wars we win because it feeds our economic machine.
Israel is fighting an existential war for survival and cant afford to lose. So we will see if such a strategy works better for Israel than it does for the US. I am not optimistic.
Yes israel is fighting an existential war. Extremely risky.
Do they have a way out of it or do they keep fighting and winning ~ all of the time.
This is coming to the whole world but Israel most of all needs political solutions rather than fostering so many who are going to feel very justified in 'defending themselves'
You have a very bad theory of mind of the people Israel is fighting. Destruction of Israel is completely wrapped up in their identity and ideology, at the personal and state level. It is literally spelled out in everything they write and everything they say. There are no political solutions available with actors like IRI, Hezbollah and Houthis.
All there is is victory, defeat, or kicking the can down the road. They dont even pretend otherwise. They explicitly state any ceasefires they make with Israel are temporary and the war to destroy Israel will commence when the time is right.
Your viewpoint only works if the can gets kicked down the road long enough that IRI and its proxies are organically replaced by more moderate actors. But given the ideologies of people in this part of the world and incentive structures in place I see no reason to expect this to happen.
In reference to this, Israel is reporting they hit a major ammunition dump that created tremendous secondary fires that went out of control.
Unfortunately, this is the type of stuff that happens with the type of asymmetric warfare Hamas is waging. If you want to say Hamas asymmetric tactics are justified that is fine; but you also have to accept outcomes like this are an inevitable byproduct.
Hamas must have the most command centers and ammo dumps per capita then anyone else.
You have a very bad theory of mind of the people Israel is fighting. Destruction of Israel is completely wrapped up in their identity and ideology, at the personal and state level. It is literally spelled out in everything they write and everything they say. There are no political solutions available with actors like IRI, Hezbollah and Houthis.
All there is is victory, defeat, or kicking the can down the road. They dont even pretend otherwise. They explicitly state any ceasefires they mak
No you're just making up stuff about others in a seeming attempt to justify netanyahu approiach
I think we need to defeat the terrorists/extremists. Thinking that can be done militarily is a hugely risky mistake.
No. It is just their ammo dumps are in civilian areas, intentionally to act as a deterrent for Israel going after them. And if Israel attacks alway, you have some good propaganda to work with, so win win.
Have you seen the videos of Russian ammo dumps getting hit? It is biblical level stuff; so much destruction. But there are no civilians around for miles.
No you're just making up stuff about others in a seeming attempt to justify netanyahu approiach
I think we need to defeat the terrorists/extremists. Thinking that can be done militarily is hugely risky.
This is just willful ignorance on your part, as reality is not convenient to your worldview. Destroying Israel is very much wrapped up in the worldview of groups such as IRI, Hezbollah, Houthis and Hamas. And there is nothing to suggest otherwise.
I dont think Netanyahu's approach will work, but he is doing the best with what he has to work with. Allowing IRI to surround Israel and attack it is due to Western appeasement of Islamism, and the people of MENA embracing Islamism.
And at this point no amount of giving bombs or defensive systems to Israel will be enough. The appeasement has already gone too far and there are too many Islamists.
No you're just making up stuff about others in a seeming attempt to justify netanyahu approiach
I think we need to defeat the terrorists/extremists. Thinking that can be done militarily is a hugely risky mistake
Beign so defeatist on your part is another mistake imo.
No. It is just their ammo dumps are in civilian areas, intentionally to act as a deterrent for Israel going after them. And if Israel attacks alway, you have some good propaganda to work with, so win win.
Have you seen the videos of Russian ammo dumps getting hit? It is biblical level stuff; so much destruction. But there are no civilians around for miles.
They've bombed the **** out of that hospital multiple times. Please post link
the people being burned alive in tents on film has overshadowed the attack on a school in Nuseirat and the blatant quadcopter attacks on kids playing soccer on the beach. no ammo dumps there, just reminiscent of the 2014 bombing.
thats a you problem. well, its also a societal problem.
Link to what? No one is arguing the attack didn't happen. The IDF announced they hit a command center and ammo dump, and Victor has already articulated what Palestinian sources are claiming. What do you want a link to?
FWIW, this is supposedly "evidence" a lot of ammunition was hit, due to secondary explosions (all 4 videos show audio and video evidence of serious secondary explosions from ammunition allegedly); but I don't think this is going to change anyones mind either way.
Also, what are you even contesting? Hamas is obviously going to have its ammunition hidden in civilians areas. If it had it stored in open area Israel would just destroy it.
I acknowledge Hamas has to use their population as shields to fight, due to the asymmetric nature of the fight, and I try not to over-moralize over this. I am sure they would love to be the superior power that didn't have to resort to such measures; but they have to work with what they have. I am just arguing high civilian death is an inevitable outcome of fighting this way, and we shouldn't be surprised or over outraged at Israel when this happens.
You are missing the point here. I just meant that given you can’t just “destroy” two tons of gold that is worth $55M and that apparently no one is looking for it, then it seems pretty unlikely that anything about the story is true.
Iran sells A LOT of fossil fuels to countries like China and India. And very little of it goes back into Iran itself. We probably have trouble conceptualizing how much financial wealth (at least relative to how much total wealth Iran has) is poured into supporting the Axis of Resistance, and other IRI imperial projects.
It is actually very believable that Hezbollah kept so many hard assets, as they have to be very liquid to regularly pay the 100,000+ fighters they have, on top of the familie
Link to what? No one is arguing the attack didn't happen. The IDF announced they hit a command center and ammo dump, and Victor has already articulated what Palestinian sources are claiming. What do you want a link to?
FWIW, this is supposedly "evidence" a lot of ammunition was hit, due to secondary explosions (all 4 videos show audio and video evidence of serious secondary explosions from ammunition allegedly); but I don't think this is going to change anyones mind either way.
Yeah, this. A link to the secondary explosions. And you're right, not going to convince either side, either way. Could be munitions, could be propane/oxygen tanks. Don't think any of us are qualified to ascertain.
Yeah, this. A link to the secondary explosions. And you're right, not going to convince either side, either way. Could be munitions, could be propane/oxygen tanks. Don't think any of us are qualified to ascertain.
Did you watch the top right link, that is very close ground level so you get the audio without the panoramic video? It sounds like a 4th of July finale. LOL oxygen tanks.
Reports are an Israeli column came under heavy attack near a UNIFIL base, with numerous wounded, and basically retreated to the base. The UNIFIL troops stayed inside and hid the whole time while a battle was being played out right outside and even inside their base.
Now I am not blaming any individual UNIFIL soldier for anything. They obviously have their orders not to get involved (in violation of their mandate, as deterring Hezbollah and Israel from fighting in this area is their literal only purpose), and all indications are the Irish troops especially would support Hezbollah and attack Israel if given a choice; so probably for the best they aren't being given a choice.
But the fact they are hiding during battles going on in their own bases really underlies the point they are about as useful as a poopy flavored lollipop and need to go.
The UNIFIL report on the incident completely leaves out that the IDF troops were literally undergoing a fighting retreat from a surprise attack, and even complains UNIFIL troops were "injured" from secondhand smoke. You should find and read the UNIFIL report. It is basically an Onion article, it is so absurd.
An investigation by The New York Times found that Israeli soldiers and intelligence agents, throughout the war in Gaza, have regularly forced captured Palestinians like Mr. Shubeir to conduct life-threatening reconnaissance missions to avoid putting Israeli soldiers at risk on the battlefield.
While the extent and scale of such operations are unknown, the practice, illegal under both Israeli and international law, has been used by at least 11 squads in five cities in Gaza, often with the involvement of officers from Israeli intelligence agencies.
Palestinian detainees have been coerced to explore places in Gaza where the Israeli military believes that Hamas militants have prepared an ambush or a booby trap. The practice has gradually become more widespread since the start of the war last October.
Detainees have been forced to scout and film inside tunnel networks where soldiers believed fighters were still hiding. They have entered buildings rigged with mines to find hidden explosives. They have been told to pick up or move objects like generators and water tanks that Israeli soldiers feared concealed tunnel entrances or booby traps.
The Times interviewed seven Israeli soldiers who observed or participated in the practice and presented it as routine, commonplace and organized, conducted with considerable logistical support and the knowledge of superiors on the battlefield. Many of them said the detainees were handled and often transported between the squads by officers from Israel’s intelligence agencies, a process that required coordination between battalions and the awareness of senior field commanders. And though they served in different parts of Gaza at different points in the war, the soldiers largely used the same terms to refer to human shields.
The Shubeirs soon found themselves in the middle of a battle, Mr. Shubeir said. Shells struck their building, killing his father, a blacksmith, Mr. Shubeir said. His sister, 15, was later shot and killed after Israeli soldiers entered the building, he said. Mr. Shubeir said he was captured and separated from his surviving relatives.
Until his release without charge some 10 days later, Mr. Shubeir said, he was often sent by the soldiers to wander the streets of Khan Younis accompanied by only a small overhead drone known as a quadcopter. The drone monitored his movements and issued instructions to him from its loudspeaker.
Near a neighborhood school, he was ordered to search through rubble for tunnel entrances, said Mr. Shubeir, who was previously interview by Al Jazeera. He said he was sent inside apartment blocks, the small drone hovering a yard or two from his head. He was told to look for the bodies of militants, which the Israelis typically feared were booby-trapped.
In one apartment, he saw the booby trap that had him fearing for his life.
“It was the hardest thing I have experienced,” he said. “I understood it was a trap.”
In the end, the device did not explode, for reasons he said he did not understand.
In another apartment, he found a body with a gun lying next to it, he said. Mr. Shubeir was told to throw the gun from a window for the Israeli soldiers to collect, he said.
A few days before his release, the soldiers untied his hands and made him wear an Israeli military uniform, he said. Then they set him loose, telling him to wander the streets, so that Hamas fighters might fire at him and reveal their positions, he said. The Israelis followed at a distance, out of sight.
His hands free for the first time in days, he considered trying to flee, he said.
Then he decided against it.
“The quadcopter was following me and watching what I was doing,” he said. “They will shoot me.”
Did you watch the top right link, that is very close ground level so you get the audio without the panoramic video? It sounds like a 4th of July finale. LOL oxygen tanks.
Yeah I saw it. At first I figured there's all kinds of **** in a hospital that can blow up but now have watched some videos of people throwing boxes of ammo into campfires and it's pretty damning.
It's pretty impressive the Intel Israel can get barring bubbles post above. How they act on the Intel, not so impressive.
Link to what? No one is arguing the attack didn't happen. The IDF announced they hit a command center and ammo dump, and Victor has already articulated what Palestinian sources are claiming. What do you want a link to?
FWIW, this is supposedly "evidence" a lot of ammunition was hit, due to secondary explosions (all 4 videos show audio and video evidence of serious secondary explosions from ammunition allegedly); but I don't think this is going to change anyones mind either way.
I think this kind of stark difference in reality really underscores the problem that the Israeli supporting side is having with a lot of the declarations of "genocide" from the pro-Palestinian side. It's really hard to see the good faith when people are accusing Israel of intentionally setting fire to tents as an act of terrorism when you can clearly hear some type of munitions coming from the fire. War is awful and awful things happen during war, but this war could literally end right now by a Hamas surrender. Instead they want to continue to fight, and as they are losing they are trying to paint Israel as these completely evil villains when oftentimes their intelligence is spot on and they are making clearly military decisions.
And at this point no amount of giving bombs or defensive systems to Israel will be enough. The appeasement has already gone too far and there are too many Islamists.
Sounds like Israel should just give up on a bad idea and set up elsewhere or, because nowhere else is available, simply disperse throughout the world. Or would that count as ethnic cleansing now?
There are some words we are not allowed to use to describe these actions.
