Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
“Palestinians tried non-violent resistance for years”
Yeah I don’t think the violent resistance is going so hot for them. Does she think that they have some capacity to violently resist that they are holding back on or something?
No, that is not correct.
The Holocaust analogies are not appropriate for the thread from either side.
Victor is not allowed to call what’s happening in Gaza a “holocaust” the same way Boids is not allowed to continually refer to Palestinian self-determination as an attempt at “holocaust 2.0”. It’s not allowed from either side and only ever serves to inflame the thread.
Boids didn't refer to Palestinian self determination was a desire for Holocaust 2 he stated the goal of Hamas and there's a huge difference there. Hamas state in their charter their desire to destroy Israel so his comment is hardly outlandish and certainly not bullshit. Honest question- do you equate Hamas with Palestinian self determination?
I was called a liar for posting about this back in November.
Yeah I saw it. At first I figured there's all kinds of **** in a hospital that can blow up but now have watched some videos of people throwing boxes of ammo into campfires and it's pretty damning.
It's pretty impressive the Intel Israel can get barring bubbles post above. How they act on the Intel, not so impressive.
its naive to believe anything the Israeli military says. a Command Center embedded with some hospital tents? literally every time they do a massacre they just say, oh ya command center, ammo dump, Mohammed Dief.
I am sure that now the fair-minded people in this thread are not going to pretend this doesn’t exist.
its naive to believe anything the Israeli military says. a Command Center embedded with some hospital tents? literally every time they do a massacre they just say, oh ya command center, ammo dump, Mohammed Dief.
More importantly, even if it’s true, it doesn’t automatically justify the action as so many are happy to assert.
Boids didn't refer to Palestinian self determination was a desire for Holocaust 2 he stated the goal of Hamas and there's a huge difference there. Hamas state in their charter their desire to destroy Israel so his comment is hardly outlandish and certainly not bullshit. Honest question- do you equate Hamas with Palestinian self determination?
Boids has posted Holocaust analogies about ten times (possibly more??) since it was no longer allowed from either side. This was after people complained about Victor using it. I deleted them over and over again, restated the policy. It’s not a single instance, far from it.
When a person can’t follow a simple instruction, and keeps breaking the same very basic rule, Im going to assume they’re a boundary pusher who is intent on trolling the thread and making my job more difficult, and it gets moderated as such. Furthermore, he continually speaks for me and answers mod questions with troll answers. If he can’t stop, he’ll soon be banned from posting in this thread altogether.
This isn’t the thread to debate moderations. More of the above will be deleted.
I am sure that now the fair-minded people in this thread are not going to pretend this doesn’t exist.
More importantly, even if it’s true, it doesn’t automatically justify the action as so many are happy to assert.
Well, what if for a second you stopped taking Palestinian propaganda at face value, and took Israeli propaganda.
According to the IDF the strike was executed and planned to hit a number of Hamas and PIJ militants, with minimal collateral damage. Now if this is closer to the truth than the propaganda you accept at face value, now is it justified? Or are Hamas just completely untouchable in your mind because they operate in civilian areas?
The number of lives that would inevitably be destoyed by Israel's actions should most definitely have been a factor in deciding whether to embark on this path or not. As well as moral case its a latge part of the reason why it's so stupid and dangerous for israel.
At the very minimal least it should have demanded some plausible coherent plan for a peaceful future to begin to justify this action.
The number of lives that would inevitably be destoyed by Israel's actions should most definitely have been a factor in deciding whether to embark on this path or not. As well as moral case its a latge part of the reason why it's so stupid and dangerous for israel.At the very minimal least it should have demanded some plausible coherent plan for a peaceful future to begin to jus
You could say the same thing about IRI, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. Hamas did 10/7. Hezbollah has spent a year firing rockets and missiles into Israel. The IRI has been supporting terror throughout the region for decades.
Like I have said before, a worldview where actors like these are assigned no blame or moral agency is not a workable worldview.
Some posts came up in here yesterday that made me wonder what the actual real world data is. I reside in Canada, so this morning I got the urge to check what our country lists as recognized terrorist organizations.
https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/ntnl-...
There are 6 neo Nazi groups. There's the FARC. There's one Tamil group. And there's one Russian Nationalist group. Call it 10ish of the 75. That means that over 85% of these terrorist organizations are Islamic.
So the simple question I have is why that would be. Because as data points go in a purely mathematical observation, that's a pretty stand out data point. Figured I'd go try to find some answers on that this week. Truly I make no judgements beyond being surprised at this finding myself.
Abdallah Azzam Brigades (AAB)
Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)
Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)
Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade (AAMB)
Al-Ashtar Brigades (AAB)
Al-Murabitoun
Al-Muwaqi'un Bil Dima
Al Qaida
Al Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP)
Al Qaida in the Indian Subcontinent (AQIS)
Al Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM)
Al Shabaab
Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya (AGAI)
Ansar al-Islam (AI)
Ansar Dine
Aryan Strikeforce
Asbat Al-Ansar (AAA) (The League of Partisans)
Atomwaffen Division
Aum Shinrikyo
Babbar Khalsa International (BKI)
Blood & Honour (B&H)
Boko Haram
Caucasus Emirate
Combat 18 (C18)
Ejército de Liberación Nacional (ELN)
Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (ETA)
Fatemiyoun Division (FD)
Front de Libération du Macina
Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia (FARC)
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's Faction of the Hezb-e Islami, Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin (HIG)
Hamas (Harakat Al-Muqawama Al-Islamiya) (Islamic Resistance Movement)
Haqqani Network
Harakat al-Sabireen (HaS)
Harakat ul-Mudjahidin (HuM)
HASAM (Harakat Sawa'd Misr)
Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham
Hizballah
Hizbul Mujahideen
Indian Mujahideen (IM)
International Relief Fund for the Afflicted and Needy - Canada (IRFAN – CANADA)
International Sikh Youth Federation (ISYF)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU)
Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps
Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps' Qods Force
Islamic State
Islamic State – Bangladesh
Islamic State – Democratic Republic of the Congo
Islamic State East Asia
Islamic State in the Greater Sahara
Islamic State – Khorasan Province (ISKP)
Islamic State in Libya
Islamic State – Sinai Province (ISSP)
Islamic State West Africa Province
Jaish-e-Mohammed (JeM)
Jama’at Nusrat Al-Islam Wal-Muslimin
James Mason
Jaysh Al-Muhajirin Wal-Ansar (JMA)
Jemaah Islamiyyah (JI)
Kahane Chai (Kach)
Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK)
Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LJ)
Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LeT)
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE)
Movement for Oneness and Jihad in West Africa (MOJWA)
Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command (PFLP-GC)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)
Proud Boys
Russian Imperial Movement
Sendero Luminoso (SL)
Taliban
Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP)
The Base
Three Percenters
World Tamil Movement (WTM)
Well, what if for a second you stopped taking Palestinian propaganda at face value, and took Israeli propaganda. According to the IDF the strike was executed and planned to hit a number of Hamas and PIJ militants, with minimal collateral damage. Now if this is closer to the truth than the propaganda you accept at face value, now is it justified? Or are Hamas just completely
Not a peep about the NYT article as expected, more evidence that Israel is willing to engage in conduct that demonstrates how little they value civilian lives, conduct that its peers (and its own previous judicial rulings) consider a war crime.
I haven’t looked into the strike at all and there’s no way for me (or you) to know the validity of a single strike within hours of it having happened. My point was, even if Israel’s version is accurate, which it may be, it doesn’t automatically justify it.
You could say the same thing about IRI, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. Hamas did 10/7. Hezbollah has spent a year firing rockets and missiles into Israel. The IRI has been supporting terror throughout the region for decades.
Like I have said before, a worldview where actors like these are assigned no blame or moral agency is not a workable worldview.
You could.
I'm definitely a fan of working to defeat the terrosist and extremists. Destroying so many people is just helping them or even joining them. And not even a plan.
You could.
I'm definitely a fan of working to defeat the terrosist and extremists. Destroying so many people is just helping them or even joining them. And not even a plan.
It is a bit of a catch 22. The best way to defeat extremism is to provide opportunity, development and education. However, the extremists know this, so they purposefully design societies that stifle education*, opportunity and development to their people, with a lot of religious propaganda to keep the people in line.
If the people just decide for non rational religious reasons to embrace indoctrination and follow extremists, I am not sure the strategy you propose is workable. Loosening sanctions has not made things better with respect to the IRI and the people it controls, because they are not benefiting at all. The benefits are all being hoarded by extremists who push propaganda and intentionally suppress knowledge and opportunity of their populace.
*I am talking about real liberal education. Not the religious extremist indoctrination that takes place in UNRWA "schools"
[QUOTE=rafiki;58751166]There are 6 neo Nazi groups. There's the FARC. There's one Tamil group. And there's one Russian Nationalist group. Call it 10ish of the 75. That means that over 85% of these terrorist organizations are Islamic.
So the simple question I have is why that would be. /QUOTE]
Because you're not a "terror" organization when you have the blessings of a nation-state backing you up.
There are 6 neo Nazi groups. There's the FARC. There's one Tamil group. And there's one Russian Nationalist group. Call it 10ish of the 75. That means that over 85% of these terrorist organizations are Islamic.
So the simple question I have is why that would be.
Because you're not a "terror" organization when you have the blessings of a nation-state backing you up.
Yes. If we included nations as organizations engaging in terror, that would be quite the list. For starters we'd add Russia, Myanmar, Israel, Syria, Egypt, USA etc. etc.
I don't know what the Israeli leadership are thinking. They may just be applying their historic doctrine of disproportionate retaliation, making themselves as prickly as possible (though I recall that doesn't work for hedgehogs if the attacker is a badger, because badgers have such hard mouths); they may just be stoking it because a peace agreement would mean Israel didn't need ultra-hawks any more; and / or they may be trying to lure the US into action against Iran, the author of their current troubles. The last option seems to be a long-term policy goal that the Israelis have been trailing for a while. They have occasionally threatened air action against Iran, on the basis of 'If you won't do it, we will,' and so far the US has always asked them not to go there. But if nothing else, the Israelis have drawn attention to Iran's dangerously disruptive influence. (Of course you might consider Israel itself dangerous and disruptive, but you still shouldn't overlook Iran, an oil-rich theocracy run by extremely nasty people who have no legitimate interest in Palestine at all.)
The Israeli leadership is mainly thinking a) retain power and b) avoid the corruption court case, making this an extremely dangerous period for everyone.
Trolly and Bill, your explanations were not particularly convincing.
Among non-state actors, there are obviously significant trends on who engages in acts of terror (85%+ is pretty significant). The question is why are those trends as they are. There are ample opportunities for more terror organizations among other religions/demographics. They choose to go another route. The question is simply why that is. Asking the question is not racist either.
