LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
I wonder what the list of outside shooters that have shot 50% from the field 12 seasons in a row is, like Durant has done now. Gotta be zero. 10 in a row? 5 in a row? Throw in 88% FT's. Hitting 30K points this year. Looks strangely like a GOAT bid.
LeBron did it about 13 out of 15 seasons with the other two being barely under 50%. Amazing, both.
eFG% Curry still has them, of course. GOAT shooters 1. Curry, 2. Durant ??? I think they both have to go in the all-time starting 5:
Curry
Durant
MJ
LeBron
Chamberlain
Can any line up touch that?
I wonder what the list of outside shooters that have shot 50% from the field 12 seasons in a row is, like Durant has done now. Gotta be zero. 10 in a row? 5 in a row? Throw in 88% FT's. Hitting 30K points this year. Looks strangely like a GOAT bid.
LeBron did it about 13 out of 15 seasons with the other two being barely under 50%. Amazing, both.
eFG% Curry still has them, of course. GOAT shooters 1. Curry, 2. Durant ??? I think they both have to go in the all-time starting 5:
Curry
Durant
MJ
LeBron
Let's say you could take MJ and put him with any other 4. Or for those in the LeBron camp, rotate him with any other 4. Say:
Magic
MJ
Bird
Duncan
Kareem
Or:
LeBron
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
First line up blows them away, imo.
It's weird to think that there's more than 1 way to win at basketball and you should use a style to suit the players at your disposal to get the best out of them.
Fallguy’s fundamental problem seems to be that he doesn’t understand positionless basketball or player versatility. Well, also that he’s dumb, but that’s a much deeper issue.
Since LeBron doesn’t fit the typical mold of a 6’8” forward because he’s such an insanely good playmaker, scorer, AND ball handler, he typically plays point forward. This obviously means his assisted field goal % will be less than a guy like Karl Malone due to the nature of his role; obviously not a skill difference. He then makes the logical (lol) leap of thinking this must be bad because it’s not basketball like the ‘96 Bulls.
Well yeah maybe it’s not ideal to have a ball dominant point compared to a team full of elite talent with the GOAT shooting guard, the GOAT defensive backcourt, the GOAT rebounder, the GOAT coach, and an offense that facilitates ball movement. But LeBron didn’t have all that and he won 4 titles anyway, proving definitively that it can work with the right personnel.
Fallguy will never, ever understand this though. He’s just not capable.
Wait he stopped watching closely in 2011? Hahaha.
If you only saw the first third of MJs career you’d say he was a chucking choking coach killer.
Wait he stopped watching closely in 2011? Hahaha.
If you only saw the first third of MJs career you’d say he was a chucking choking coach killer.
That may be my favorite part. He builds this elaborate narrative of enforcing spot up shooter roles vs elite off ball play and ball dominance vs zippy passing based off of one statistic and he hasn’t even seen any of these players play.
I watched Lebron closely from 2004 to 2011.
So I knew his game quite well and now we have the play-by-play stats to match the eye test with the numbers... This allows me to solve his game, as I have.
Ultimately, Lebron doesn't understand what the best brand of ball is even though it's the brand that beats him repeatedly (ball movement).. Meanwhile, highly-assisted players like Jokic, Curry and MJ understood what the best brand of ball was and learned how to execute it - this allowed them to develo
Fallguy,
Why did Steve Kerr, a guy that won 9(?) championships as player and coach from 90s into 2020s, use Bran ball in the olympics, aka putting the ball in LeBron's hands in clutch 4th quarter actions?
Also at the same time benching expert jump shooter Tatum last 2 games?
Fallguy "solved" LeBron's game in 2011.
It's weird to think that there's more than 1 way to win at basketball and you should use a style to suit the players at your disposal to get the best out of them.
Yup. We thought the game transitioned over to perimeter ball dominators, pg, sg, sf that can abuse the pick and roll.
And then Jokic comes along and straight up destroys the league last 4 years.
It's a shame that players like Jokic prolly won't win more than 2 chips in the current NBA?
The current CBA heavily punishes teams that get a little bit too strong and are at an immediately disadvantage holding on to key players. It also heavily incentives superstars to take the mega max 250-300M deals, and soon to be 400M-500M deals which no player in their right mind would ever turn down, even if they kept playing on a bad team.
We probably won't ever see a "GOAT" candidate get thrown into the conversation because he won't be able to win more rings as his team is being cannibalized around him.
So it turns out that AD is better than Shaq, and all it took was a coach to take the ball out of Lebron's hands.. AD was simply shackled previously by bron-ball.
It's interesting because Lebron would surely want the ball alongside Shaq, and that's how we know they wouldn't win - it would shackle Shaq just like it shackled AD.
The 3-peat formula is clearly putting AD or Shaq as the focal point and then having an expert jumpshooter average 25-30 playing off them like Kobe did, and also being the "closer" in the 4th and set the record for clutch-time stats... Unfortunately, Lebron can't get 30 off-ball and isn't a "closer", so he's currently at 18/4/6 - this is great evidence that he cannot play off-ball and therefore could never win with in-out bigs like Shaq.. And of course his "bron-ball" weaker brand of ball needs more talent, such as 3rd options that were equal or better than Pau.
I wonder what the list of outside shooters that have shot 50% from the field 12 seasons in a row is, like Durant has done now. Gotta be zero. 10 in a row? 5 in a row? Throw in 88% FT's. Hitting 30K points this year. Looks strangely like a GOAT bid.
LeBron did it about 13 out of 15 seasons with the other two being barely under 50%. Amazing, both.
eFG% Curry still has them, of course. GOAT shooters 1. Curry, 2. Durant ??? I think they both have to go in the all-time starting 5:
Curry
Durant
MJ
LeBron
The list of guys that shoot 50% is NOT a list of "outside shooters"
The vast majority of Lebron's field goals are layups within 5 feet of the rim, while the majority of shots for MJ, Curry, or Kobe were jumpers, because they were ACTUAL jumpshooters - that was their skillset, while Lebron is a driver.
Obviously, MJ was both by virtue of arguably the goat rim attack and also the goat 2-point jumpshooter - the numbers back this up due to goat mid-range volume & efficiency for his entire career and 150 dunks in 88' as a shooting guard, and likely around 200 in 87' - this would lead the league most years and be a center amount of dunks..
Thank you for finally acknowledging that I refuted your entire argument. Though you need to give people on that other site credit too because at a glance it seems like they were arguing with you about this ball dominance stuff too.
It actually doesn’t take much thought though — something can’t be both “good” and “bad” when it has the value X. It can’t be “bad” when the value of some variable/feature “increases”, “decrea
You're the only one on this site that refutes it because you're the only one that doesn't understand it.. And the other site is obviously a bunch of teenage jack*sses so none of them understand much either.
If you can't understand 2 + 2, then you can't understand more complicated stuff like algebra, or whatever... In this case, you don't understand basic things about basketball, so how could you understand a player's impact on their teammates' assists and the team's.
Lebron reduces his teammates' assists so the TEAM has low assists, and he reduces their assists because he increased their assisted rate (imposed spot-up role) - this is all mathematical fact... But at some point a professor must throw up his hands and just give the student and F.. So you get an F.
However, I'm willing to continue the tutelage and continue to flesh this out for you because you're right - it's good for the thread.. So have at it.. You can start with the 1 sentence summary that I just gave - Lebron reduces his teammates' assists so the TEAM has low assists, and he reduces their assists because he increased their assisted rate (imposed spot-up role).
1 player hogging the assists and producing low-assist teams is the hallmark of the high-scoring point guard skillset, aka "ball-dominators" like Luka, Lebron, Harden, Westbrook or SGA - their low ball movement brand imposes spot-up roles (increases teammates' assisted rate) and cannot develop great chemistry, so they cannot produce great teams and perennially-lose regardless of cast.
So it turns out that AD is better than Shaq, and all it took was a coach to take the ball out of Lebron's hands.. AD was simply shackled previously by "bron-ball".
It's interesting because Lebron would surely want the ball alongside Shaq, and that's how we know they wouldn't win - it would shackle Shaq just like it shackled AD.
The 3-peat formula is clearly putting AD or Shaq as the focal point and then having an expert jumpshooter average 25-30 playing off them like Kobe did, and also being the "
his assisted field goal % will be less than a guy like Karl Malone due to the nature of his role; obviously not a skill difference. He then makes the logical (lol) leap of thinking this must be bad because it’s not basketball like the ‘96 Bulls
You keep comparing Lebron to Karl Malone - compare him to Duncan, MJ, Curry, and Kobe - they're the best off-ball players ever that Lebron falls far short of... You avoid this and compare Lebron to lesser guys like Malone and Miller as if that isn't transparent.. These kinds of tactics show you grasping at straws in the throws of defeat.
Lebron has a point guard skillset, so of course he will have a higher assisted rate, but that's what makes him inferior - that skillset is inferior - none of the dynasties needed it and they used superior skillsets that yielded better fits, chemistry and strategy/coaching.
Since LeBron doesn’t fit the typical mold of a 6’8” forward because he's such an
nsanely good playmaker, scorer, AND ball handler, he typically plays point forward.
^^^ Curry, Kobe and Jordan were all of those things as well
yet they were skilled enough to execute great ball-handling, scoring, and playmaking while having high assisted rates and playing off teammates to produce great chemistry... They didn't have to dominate the ball or imposing spot-up roles/higher assisted rates for teammates.
That's just a euphemism for someone that is announced as a forward but actually has a point guard skillset exclusively - his low jumpshooting stats, assisted rates, post up rates and imposition of spot-up roles show that he doesn't have an off-guard or big man skillset and only has a point guard skillset.. The point guard skillset is further confirmed by the imposition of spot-up roles (increasing everyone's assisted rates) and obvious eye test where lebron is the primary ball-handler for every team he ever had, prior to Reddick.
Ultimately, Lebron's presence gives his teams a 2nd player on the floor that has a point guard hold-time and assisted rate - these 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assist opportunity than they get in 1 point guard lineups on other teams.. Lower assists from teammates yields low TEAM assists.
Lebron/Wade, or Lebron/Kyrie, or Lebron/Westbrook, or Lebron/D-Lo - these are 2 point guard lineups that no other team has because Lebron is the only frontcourt point guard, which gives his teams a 2nd point guard on the floor... Lineups with 2 point guards gives the team a 2nd player on the floor that has a point guard hold-time and assisted rate, which gives teammates less hold-time and assist opportunity than they get in 1 point guard lineups on other teams... Lower assists from teammates yields low TEAM assists and a brand that cannot compete viably on the championship level.
Well yeah maybe it’s not ideal to have a ball dominant point compared to a team full of elite talent with the GOAT shooting guard, the GOAT defensive backcourt, the GOAT rebounder, the GOAT coach, and an offense that facilitates ball movement.
But LeBron didn’t have all that
Lebron had so much MORE than that - D-Lo, Kyrie, Westbrook and Rondo are all better playmakers that average more assists than Pippen - so Lebron had more playmaking help, scoring help, rim protection and rebounding help.
Rodman averaged 3 points and 8 rebounds for the entire 97' Playoffs, so MJ was forced to co-lead the rebounding and average 8 rebounds just like Rodman, while also leading assists and carrying the scoring load at the goat level... In addition to Rodman's 3/8 for the 97' Playoffs, he wasn't the starter for the 98' Playoffs.., So you're referring to fossil Rodman, not the great player that Detroit had from 89' to 92'... Again, Lebron had FAR more rebounding help, scoring help, playmaking help, and rim protection.
Btw, Lebron got HOF coach Spolestra and also got Blatt fired for trying the ball movement-oriented, Princeton Offense.. Furthermore, Jordan's first playoff teams were lottery casts and 8 seeds, while Lebron's first playoff teams were veteran high seeds with HOF coaching, the East all-star center, a 22/5/5 all-defender, and a top 5 defense - that's better help on both sides of the ball than the 1st three-peat Bulls... All this this confirms that Lebron had more good coaching than Jordan, who was forced to carry an unknown offense that didn't let anyone dribble.
So you missed the bit that made him a GOAT candidate. Or the bit where he won 3 of the next 5 chips.
2/4 with Wade/Bosh including the goat choke and record loss is goat?.... That's the best we've ever seen?.. You serious?
1 for 5 with Shaq???... I mean AD??.... including a 2nd option chip??.... That's goat to you???
Barely winning 50 games for 4 straight years with prime Kyrie/Love?..... C'mon, that's WORST-EVER, not best-ever, smh.
As you can see, Lebron mostly lost after he got help, while MJ mostly won - that's the difference - and MJ's version of "help" included one less star (one less "pippen" than lebron's big 3 super-teams).
How about nearly losing with unprecedented help like a sidekick outplaying the league MVP - Kyrie outplayed Curry, so Lebron had to outplay....... Klay???.... They were the preseason favorite as the only team with 3 franchise players, while the Warriors only had 1.
Ultimately, guys like Klay, Pippen, Pau and Parker are secondary producers and non-franchise players, while Wade, AD, Kyrie, Love and Bosh were elite producers and franchise players.. So Lebron's help was FAR better, yet he won FAR less.... This isn't a small sample - we're talking the entire careers of Curry, MJ, Kobe, Duncan - many guys did much better with much less than Lebron...
And we know why Lebron wins so little despite having so much help - history shows that high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron imposes spot-up roles that prevent teammate development or good chemistry/strategy/coaching, thereby yielding perennial losers and inability to produce great teams.
Wait he stopped watching closely in 2011? Hahaha.
If you only saw the first third of MJs career you’d say he was a chucking choking coach killer.
Chucking indicates low efficiency and/or high turnovers - MJ never had either
Only young Lebron had these things - not young Jordan.
Lebron was the chucker that shot 35% and 6 TO's in the 07' Finals and 08' ECSF - show someone else that played that bad with 35% and 6 TO's - only Lebron played this worst-ever caliber.
Wait he stopped watching closely in 2011? Hahaha.
If you only saw the first third of MJs career you’d say he was a chucking choking coach killer.
MJ would've obviously 3-peated with the East all-star center, HOF coach, and an acquisition that was playing better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball:
05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D
Wait he stopped watching closely in 2011? Hahaha.
If you only saw the first third of MJs career you’d say he was a chucking choking coach killer.
Lebron received 4 players that were superior to 1990 Pippen, but "bron-ball imposed spot-up roles and couldn't develop them or win with them like MJ did with Pippen:
05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D
09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5
It's a shame that players like Jokic prolly won't win more than 2 chips in the current NBA?
The current CBA heavily punishes teams that get a little bit too strong and are at an immediately disadvantage holding on to key players. It also heavily incentives superstars to take the mega max 250-300M deals, and soon to be 400M-500M deals which no player in their right mind would ever turn down, even if they kept playing on a bad team.
We probably won't ever see a "GOAT" candidate get thrown into the c
The problem is that no one won a bunch of titles with 17 on 41% from their sidekick - if AD averaged these numbers, no amount of defense would stop the media and fans from permanently downgrading him and getting him traded asap... Only MJ won with this crap as a standard...
Only MJ had a dynasty that wasn't a super-team or have a 3rd star... Only MJ won with the biggest offensive burden like possessions (usage) or scoring (ppg), while still being 1st team defense and getting more DPOY votes than Pippen for 7 of 9 seasons.. that's the goat 2-way load.
MJ didn't even have the kind of help Jokic had because Jokic had 3rd and 4th scorers, which MJ never had, and Jamal Murray dominated or carried the team at times, while MJ never had any teammate dominate MJ was forced to carry the load every game and series - listen to Kenny Smith tell it:
Fallguy,
Why did Steve Kerr, a guy that won 9(?) championships as player and coach from 90s into 2020s, use Bran ball in the olympics, aka putting the ball in LeBron's hands in clutch 4th quarter actions?
Also at the same time benching expert jump shooter Tatum last 2 games?
Look at how Reddick is currently muzzling Lebron and it's working against top NBA teams (MIN, PHO), so it would've worked even better against the weak teams we faced in the Olympics... But muzzling Lebron wasn't needed because Bron-ball has always worked against weak teams..
Obviously, we played 1-star teams in the Olympics - the best teams were equivalent to a below-500 team in the NBA, so Bron-ball works against that crap... So does Iverson-ball or Westbrook-ball or Harden-ball or Luka-ball - they all work against the crap teams but get annihilated against the top teams.
Given our massive talent advantage, why did we barely win numerous games and have a slim margin of victory that didn't match our talent advantage???... What held back our talent???... We know the answer - it's 5 turnovers per 24 minutes for Lebron, which is 7 turnovers per game in the NBA - bron-ball held back our talent and caused us to nearly lose..
Otoh, we would've had solid margins of victory if bron-ball, aka cancer-ball stayed home and wasn't on the team... Again, look at how Reddick is currently muzzling Lebron and it's working against the best NBA teams (MIN, PHO), so it would've worked even better against the weak teams we faced in the Olympics.
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Recent Thread Cliffs (short version)
Luka and Lebron-style players increase teammates' assisted rate (impose spot-up roles), which lowers teammates assists and creates low-assist teams that win less.
Otoh, jumpshooters and bigs either maintain or decrease teammates' assisted rate (puts the ball in their hands), which creates higher teammate assists, TEAM assists, fits, and winning.
(longer version for the layman)
High-scoring point guard skillsets, aka "ball-dominators" score a lot of points unassisted by teammates and dribbling around on their own, which forces teammates into higher assisted rates (spot-up roles) - these spot-up roles reduce teammates' assists, so the TEAM has low assists and low team ceiling.
Otoh, jumpshooters and bigs score many buckets while being assisted by teammates, so teammates aren't forced into spot-up roles and get higher assists along with the team - everyone is playing off each other and the team has good fits, chemistry and team ceiling.
Since jumpshooters and bigs produce better chemistry, strategy/coaching and teams, the best jumpshooters and bigs are better than the best ball-dominators.. This means that Curry, MJ, Duncan and Kobe are better than Lebron, Oscar and Luka...
(FYI - Nash, Stockton, Haliburton and Magic aren't high-scoring ball-dominators, so they don't have a bunch of unassisted buckets that force teammates to stand around in spot-up capacities, thus lowering their assists and the team's.. These guys have #1 assist teams regularly because again, they aren't HIGH-SCORING ball-dominators - they aren't excessive ball-dominators that essentially hog the ball and assists.. It's actually a stark contrast, which confirms that only high-scoring ball-dominators score a ton of unassisted buckets that impose spot-up roles, lower teammate assists and low TEAM assists - only excessive ball-dominators have this problem and inherent flaw or suboptimal nature to their game, aka imposing spot-up roles that kill teammate development, chemistry and team ceiling).
Meanwhile LeBron still out here, still elite
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Recent Thread Cliffs (short version)
Luka and Lebron-style players increase teammates' assisted rate (impose spot-up roles), which lowers teammates assists and creates low-assist teams that win less.
So, even though the empirical evidence has shown the complete opposite for everything else you have claimed when I took the time to look up the data, I was curious about this as it seems plausible. Perhaps someone that does not watch basketball but has a self-claimed stratospheric basketball IQ could indeed know this without even watching the games?
Here is what I found:
Cleveland 2002-03 (pre-LeBron) = 20.9 team assists per game
Cleveland 2003-04 (with LeBron) = 22 team assists per game (+1.1 assists per game)
Cleveland 2009-10 (with LeBron) = 22.4 team assists per game
Cleveland 2010-11 (post-LeBron) = 21 team assists per game (-1.4 assists per game)
Miami 2009-10 (pre-LeBron) = 18.9 team assists per game
Miami 2010-11 (with LeBron) = 20 team assists per game (+1.1 assists per game)
Miami 2013-14 (with LeBron) = 22.5 team assists per game
Miami 2014-15 (post-LeBron) = 19.8 team assists per game (-2.7 assists per game)
Cleveland 2013-14 (pre-LeBron) = 21.2 team assists per game
Cleveland 2014-15 (with LeBron) = 22.1 team assists per game (+0.9 assists per game)
Cleveland 2017-18 (with LeBron) = 23.4 team assists per game
Cleveland 2018-19 (post LeBron) = 20.7 team assists per game (-2.7 assists per game)
Los Angeles 2017-18 (pre-LeBron) = 23.8 team assists per game
Los Angeles 2018-19 (with LeBron) = 25.6 team assists per game (+1.8 assists per game)
So, when LeBron James has joined a team, they have, on average, improved by +1.23 assists per game.
When LeBron James has left a team, they have, on average regressed by -2.27 assists per game.
And not only that, but every single time LeBron James has joined a team their assists per game has improved, and every single time LeBron James has left a team their assists per game has regressed.
So once again, it looks like the factual, historical data not only falsifies what you have claimed, but it proves the complete opposite.
Lebron reduces his teammates' assists so the TEAM has low assists, and he reduces their assists because he increased their assisted rate (imposed spot-up role) - this is all mathematical fact... But at some point a professor must throw up his hands and just give the student and F.. So you get an F.
Looks like the Dean has had to come in once again to revoke your troll license for being too dumb to teach this stuff. Your tenure has been denied and you've been fired. Sorry fallguy.
Just had 16/5/6 on 6/6 shooting in the 4th quarter alone to get the win. It's really sad to not be able to just enjoy greatness, there won't be a player like this again.
You didn't find that Lebron had high-assist teams because his skillset doesn't allow that
That's the point - high-scoring ball-dominators prevent high-assist teams
Since Lebron, Luka, Harden and company cannot have high-assist teams, they beat by teams that out-assist them, such as all of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years.. So who cares about whatever you posted.. Everything in the cliff notes stands.
