LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

You're lying.... If you can't respond, then just don't respond.. Your act is getting tired.

You guys just don't care about the facts but that doesn't mean they will go away or that I'll stop stating them.

You're literally like child - begging me to stop speaking the truth... But give it up buddy, because I won't.

Fallguy,
I am sure you’ve done the math on this, but since you have a 99% accuracy when predicting basketball games, if you started with one dollar and bet on one game per week, and carried over your winnings to the next week, you’d have a 59% chance of having 4.5 quadrillion dollars (seriously) by the end of the year. That’s $4,500,000,000,000,000.

I’m sure you realize this already though because of how good you are at math. Is the reason you aren’t pursuing this because you’re afraid your basketball knowledge will crash the world’s economy?

No what I am saying is since your assists arguments have been conclusively proven wrong by multiple people with facts and data - everyone showed that your false results come from cherry picking specific values - it may be useful if you came up with a different argument.

I’m not asking you to stop posting but I am asking you to come up with a different argument that hasn’t been proven wrong by everyone.

Jamison was a 2nd Round player alongside both Arenas or Lebron, so you're wrong.

The difference is that Jamison was playing far below capacity alongside Lebron, so Lebron couldn't do better than Arenas despite being much better than Arenas - it was classic Lebron underachievement.

Ultimately, Love and Bosh were better than Pau, while Jamison was on the same level of Pau based on.............. everything

Magic Johnson caused his teammates assists to go down...

Pre-Magic

With Magic

Thoughts?

I'm not debating or arguing - I'm informing you of the facts that Lebron lowers everyone's assists... I've educated you guys of this fact

Obviously, this makes the ball-dominant skillset inferior to others that allow teammates to play to full capacity and produce better teams

Fidstar,
Great point, but fallguy will ignore it unfortunately. This is because he is a liar and cannot make a coherent argument. Everyone has proven him wrong 100x over on this assists argument but he cannot help himself.

Fallguy,
Unfortunately we have proven mathematically that every high assist player lowers teammate assists. This is a mathematical fact and is not exclusive to LeBron James or any other ball dominant player. Perhaps it’s time to let it go?

You have to show a massive trend like I did with Lebron by showing all the starters.

But I'm surprised that you're refuting the obvious math... Do you realize that Magic, Nash and Stockton had many #1 assist teams?... So even without looking at all their teammates, we already know that they didn't reduce most teammates' assists the way Lebron, Luka and all HIGH-SCORING ball-dominators do...

Again, high-scoring ball-dominators are the only guys with many unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, thereby lowering their assists.. Otoh, low-scoring point guards like Nash and Magic simply don't have the ball enough by virtue of scoring half as much as Luka, Lebron, Harden and company.

But here's the kicker - even if Magic, Stockton and Nash DO reduce everyone's assists (they don't, but let's assume for a second that they do), then this simply puts them in the category of suboptimal skillsets along with high-scoring ball-dominators... It doesn't help the Lebron case to point out that Magic reduced everyone too (even though he obviously didn't - 3rd options like Worthy were superstars alongside Magic, while Bosh, Love, Jamison, Kuzma and Ingram were bums alongside Lebron - it's night and day and a clear distinction that demonstrates the point being made about Lebron reducing teammates)..

But this is the entire crux of your argument and why you are dumb: you claim this sub optimal skill set cannot lead to a dominant team.

But Magic (especially) has led era-defining dominant teams. LeBron less so, but he has still led excellent teams, beating the 73-9 warriors and winning 3 rings in 5 year.

This proves it is largely team makeup and strategy that makes these teams elite. Not the fact that LeBron is both an elite scorer and playmaker (thus often having a higher degree of ball dominance). It’s really really stupid to suggest otherwise. Which is why you’re having trouble convincing even a single person your assist argument is correct. It’s because it’s stupid.

Magic, Nash, and Stockton had many #1 assist teams, so they didn't lower teammate assists, and a complete listing of their teammates will show that clearly.

Otoh, we have a complete listing for Lebron, which shows that he lowers everyone's assists.

Regardless, any skillset that lowers teammates' assists is inferior to skillsets that don't, so even if Magic and Nash reduced everyone's assists, that simply means that they're trash too - it would show that low-scoring ball-dominators like Nash and Magic reduce teammates just like high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka and Harden.

So my top 10 is intact no matter what you guys do - ball-domination (low-assisted players) is simply an inferior skillset that reduces teammates and prevents great teams.. Otoh, highly-assisted players elevate teammates and produce all the dynasties (Russell, Kareem, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Curry).

The Lakers were Kareem's team, so he's kind of the highly-assisted skillset that allows great teams/dynasties.

All the dynasties in history were led by highly-assisted skillsets such as bigs (Russell, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq), or jumpshooters (MJ, Curry, Kobe/Shaq).

Infact, Magic's ball-dominance hindered the Lakers from their true capacity because they're only 5-4 in the Finals and lost a TON as the favorite.. Magic and Lebron are combined 9-10 in the finals, so if those guys can't make ball-domination work, then no one can - it's just a completely crap skillset that underachieves favored talent - again, Magic lost TONS as the favorite... That's why I have losers like Magic and Lebron as fringe top 10.

Nice try fallguy, but sorry still stupid.

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Recent Thread Cliffs

Low-scoring ball-dominators like Magic, Nash and Stockton had many #1 assist teams, so it's highly unlikely that they reduced everyone's assists the way high-scoring ball-dominators do (Luka, Lebron, and Harden).

But even if low-scoring ball-dominators like Magic reduce everyone's assists, then this simply means that they're trash too - it would show that low-scoring ball-dominators like Nash and Magic reduce teammates just like high-scoring ball-dominators do (Lebron, Luka and Harden).

So my top 10 is intact no matter what you guys do - ball-domination (low-assisted players) is simply an inferior skillset that reduces teammates and prevents great teams.. Otoh, highly-assisted players elevate teammates and produce all the dynasties (Russell, Kareem, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Curry).

Infact, Magic's ball-dominance hindered the Lakers from their true capacity because they're only 5-4 in the Finals and lost a TON as the favorite.. Magic and Lebron are combined 9-10 in the finals, so if those guys can't make ball-domination work, then no one can - it's just a completely crap skillset that underachieves favored talent - again, Magic lost TONS as the favorite... That's why I have losers like Magic and Lebron as fringe top 10.

Nope, I caught you

Kareem was the leader of the Lakers (low-assisted player), so you were wrong

But even so, the Lakers underachieved with a 5-4 Finals record due to Magic's ball-dominance - he held the Lakers back compared to what Curry or MJ would've done in his place.

I've been saying for years that there's no way that Magic and Kareem can both be top 5 because they were only 5-4 in the Finals... So one of them had to get bumped down, and I correctly identified the right skillset to bump down - it's the needy ball-dominator that reduces everyone's assists - that's the guy holding the Lakers back from winning every single year like MJ or Curry would with Kareem.

Since fallguy has been caught in a lie again, it’s probably worth noting that when people say Kareem is top 3 or top 5 it’s his Milwaukee years (and his very early, pre-Magic, LA years) that are his peak. By the time Magic was in his 2nd or 3rd year he was the Lakers best player.

But since fallguy got caught being wrong again expect him to aggressively lie and misrepresent his argument for his next 5 overly wordy posts.

I wonder if we should start scoring basketball games by “most team assists” rather than “most points” so that fallguy can actually be right and look like less of a lunatic.

Maybe we should score it by high volume mid range jump shooting (preferably at a poor conversion rate).

When we evaluate the capacity for teammates to get assists, the amount of buckets that the leading scorer is assisted on (the guy with the most buckets) will have the greatest impact on teammates' assist opportunities.

The clear-cut leading scorer and "go-to" player for the Lakers was Kareem until 1987, so the point about highly-assisted players leading all the dynasties is correct - Kareem led the Lakers for most of the 80's, and his highly-assisted game allowed assist opportunities for teammates, great ball movement and a dynasty.

We aren't talking about scoring games - we're explaining why high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron produce weak chemistry and perennial losers with every cast, while the best of the highly-assisted players are capable of great chemistry and dynasties (Russell, Kareem, MJ, Kobe/Shaq, Duncan, Curry - all the dynasties)

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Courtesy of vetting from Matt R and fidstar-poker:

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Bird
4. Curry
5. Russell
6. Wilt
7, Kareem
8, Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Magic
11. Lebron
12. Oscar

^^^ Ranked in order of the skillsets that produce elite chemistry to win with the rosters they were given (organically), and have the best teams/dynasties.. Accordingly, the top of the rankings show highly-assisted skillsets that allow the best ball movement and chemistry, such as jumpshooters and bigs, followed by the lower-assisted and lower-chemistry skillsets of ball-domination.

And since HIGH-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron produce lower-assist teams, he's behind LOW-scoring ball-dominators like Magic.. It's interesting how prior eras understood that excessive ball-domination was bad, so there were no high-scoring ball-dominators - guys like Magic, Penny, KJ, Hill, or Hardaway only averaged 20 ppg

However, Kobe still had a healthy assisted rate, so he was able to produce better chemistry than Lebron that won with less, such as a sidekick that was worse than Bosh, Love and on-par with Jamison...

In addition to winning with less, Kobe's superior chemistry allowed higher team ceilings as well, such as reaching a goat-team level with Shaq... Lebron's weaker chemistry could never achieve that with Shaq, while his playing style of low jumpshooting volume clashes with an in-out big like Shaq..

So Kobe is superior to Lebron because he produced better chemistry that won with less, achieved higher team ceilings, while Kobe also outplayed Lebron many times against the same playoff opponent between 07-11'.
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I'm also willing to move Kobe anywhere within the "jumpshooter category, so anywhere between 1 and 4

Shouldn’t Ray Allen and Reggie Miller be above guys like Russell and Wilt? Being expert jump shooters and all.

Maybe you should have guys like Damian Lillard and Kyle Korver round out your top 10 to complete your thesis? Seems your jump shooter analytics methodology is a little inconsistent when you have guys like Kareem and Shaq in there.