Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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30564 Replies
that still doesnt make the Israeli narrative correct. its quite obv this was retaliation for the Maccabi hooligans doing some heinous and violent stuff and not a pogrom or an ambush.
theres also a ton of fake news and videos out there so be careful what you believe.
The Maccabi hooligans did chant bad things and tear down "Palestinian" flags. This is standard for European soccer matches. The violent acts by the Islamists was unacceptable, You didn't see Israelis attacking "Palestinians" on college campuses when they were spouting antisemitic chants and tearing down Israeli flags. The Islamists wouldn't dare set up check points here in the Americas because Americans carry weapons.
Option A: the UN, American doctors, Oxfam, Save The Children, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Doctors Without Borders and Israelis themselves are telling the truth and Israel is targeting and killing thousands of civilians.
Option B: they are all lying. The truth is an unsubstantiated narrative about Palestinians somehow engaging in the coordinated sacrifice of their own children to give Israel bad PR. Trust the people who are, at this very moment, saying Amsterdam is a Pogram.
Yes of course it's not exact or even a good proxy. But it's obvious to everyone what the intentions of people chanting "**** off Arabs" are as they tear Palestine flags down from people's houses, isn't it, and it must be particularly gross for Israel's own Arab population to see.
It was a soccer game in Europe where nonsense like this is allowed. There is a big difference between chanting things and beating people up because of who they are.
the Maccabi hooligans beat the **** out of cab driver actually.
and yes, Israel supporters attacked Palestinan supporters at college campuses on a number of occassions. but thats separate from this last event in Amsterdam.
Option A: the UN, American doctors, Oxfam, Save The Children, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Doctors Without Borders and Israelis themselves are telling the truth and Israel is targeting and killing thousands of civilians.
Option B: they are all lying. The truth is an unsubstantiated narrative about Palestinians somehow engaging in the coordinated sacrifice of their own children to give Israel bad PR. Trust the people who are, at this very moment, saying Amsterdam is a Pogram.
I don't think the agencies in option A are necessarily lying. They are taking what they see out of context. They are not privy to inside information the Israelis have. They are looking for trouble and finding it instead of taking an objective view of the war.
In option B it is possible that some "Palestinians" are indeed sacrificing their children. It's more likely they are being forced to sacrifice their children.
Amsterdam sounds like a horrible place for Jews right now. I was there in 2007 and we got harassed verbally by some Islamists while walking down the street just for being Americans.
Why are you guys quoting my response to the story about the wood be Iranian Trump assassin?
It appears soccer hooligans were acting like hooligans. The more violent side chose violence again.
Why does Europe allow this barbarism? You would neve see such displays at an American sporting event.
you mean like this?
the Maccabi hooligans beat the **** out of cab driver actually.
and yes, Israel supporters attacked Palestinan supporters at college campuses on a number of occassions. but thats separate from this last event in Amsterdam.
That appears to be an isolated incident. Do we know the details of the cab incident other than he was beat up. I know a lot of the violence shown from Israelis was strictly in self defense.
you mean like this?
Yep!
Fights do happen especially at European soccer matches. I don't know who said what to whom here. This is what happens when violent drunk people get around each other. It's a shame that families can't take their children to these events because of this.
I guess some posts got deleted. But, for the record, nobody has contributed more to American arts and sciences per capita than Jews. We are lucky to have them and Europe shot themselves in the foot by driving them away or murdering them.
Kubrick, Woody and Phillip Roth have been big parts of my life, as have philosophers like Chomsky, Rorty, etc.
I love classical music, and Horowitz and many others.
I'm pretty dumb at science but you don't want guys like Einstein? We'll take him!
We can all learn from a culture that has produced so many greats.
I have many wonderful memories of Jewish friends and family (by marriage). My ex was actually way harder on Isreal and nationalism than I am. If you think I'm lying, so be it.
Critique of extreme nationalist philosophies and what I believe to be war crimes is not in any way based on the belief that it is inherent to Jews or any other group. Islamism is terrible, but certainly not genetic. In fact, the proliferation of such thinking is more understandable for Jews than for other groups, but it's still wrong.
Nothing has been deleted. I'm just banning everyone now.
Oh yeah. I couldn't find it before.
You are just as bad as Victor in peddling antisemetic propaganda. In quality if not quantity. This post is case in point.
Oddly, this was in response to the Iran story which doesn't involve Jews in any way, as far as I can tell. But, anyway, I don't want anyone to think I'm attacking their ethnicity.
People like Ben-Gvir exist in every group. Racist hooligans seem common in soccer. Etc.
I don't think the agencies in option A are necessarily lying. They are taking what they see out of context. They are not privy to inside information the Israelis have. They are looking for trouble and finding it instead of taking an objective view of the war.
In option B it is possible that some "Palestinians" are indeed sacrificing their children. It's more likely they are being forced to sacrifice their children.
Amsterdam sounds like a horrible place for Jews right now. I was there in 2007 an
What inside information do you think might exist to justify the proportion of young children being killed?
If 49er fans took up singing some super antisemitic chant as their fight song, traveled to Tel Aviv to watch the 49ers play an exhibition game there, marched through the streets singing their antisemitic fight song and proceeded to get their asses kicked by the locals. I'd be
A. Deeply embarrassed these morons are representing my country abroad.
B. Super happy they got what was coming to them.
Sucks that some innocent fans got caught up in it but would still question why they're traveling on the road with this element that has hijacked their fan base.
If 49er fans took up singing some super antisemitic chant as their fight song, traveled to Tel Aviv to watch the 49ers play an exhibition game there, marched through the streets singing their antisemitic fight song and proceeded to get their asses kicked by the locals. I'd be
A. Deeply embarrassed these morons are representing my country abroad.
B. Super happy they got what was coming to them.
Sucks that some innocent fans got caught up in it but would still question why they're traveling on the r
This is unfortunately a part of football culture that not enough effort has been made to stop. It’s wide-spread. Games should just be stopped when racist abuse happens and ultras/hooligans permabanned. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen a police presence in my city like society is collapsing just for a football game.
Sure but if you're a local Jewish person, one, having foreigners who don't represent you but are associated with you being an *******s in your community and having to deal with the fall out isn't fun and two, even though it's football hooliganism and the stupidity that comes with it, you can't be too happy with the slippage of the antagonists between Israel and Jewish people and three you probably don't want the past trauma of Jewish life to be weaponized for xenophobic reasons.
Apparently nothing happened in Bologna After the basketball game we discussed yesterday.
Very few supporters of the Israeli team showed up though (that's what our news are reporting).
Isn't "the majority of the population are children, therefor we should expect the majority of deaths to be children" pretty damning evidence of non discriminate bombing? That alignment with deaths and population is what'd you'd expect if you weren't trying to be precise in who you were trying to kill
Isn't "the majority of the population are children, therefor we should expect the majority of deaths to be children" pretty damning evidence of non discriminate bombing? That alignment with deaths and population is what'd you'd expect if you weren't trying to be precise in who you were trying to kill
Therefore we should expect the majority (or whatever exact proportion they are in the population) of COLLATERAL deaths to be children.
Ofc when you check the actual deaths you have more 16-19 killed than 0-15, and more boys killed than girls, which is pretty damn evidence that it's mostly combatants.
There is pretty disingenous use of the world "children" that includes fully adult combate age people. Btw something very similar is used with criminality stats for the USA when the 18 and 19y old are counted as "children".
Or when "magically" a huge lot of illegal aliens are 16-17 y old (with no proof of age, self declared) while exactly 18y old are very few.
Therefore we should expect the majority (or whatever exact proportion they are in the population) of COLLATERAL deaths to be children.
Ofc when you check the actual deaths you have more 16-19 killed than 0-15, and more boys killed than girls, which is pretty damn evidence that it's mostly combatants.
There is pretty disingenous use of the world "children" that includes fully adult combate age people. Btw something very similar is used with criminality stats for the USA when the 18 and 19y old are
where are you getting your numbers? I would indeed like to check.
This is an ultra propal source (just check how they frame the topic, like you would). This was actually presumably intended to convince people a lot of the deaths are of non combatants, except we can read numbers.
Imagine having a ratio of 5:2 boys vs girls at the 16-17 cutoff, and many more 17y old killed than 18y, being anything but
1) adolescents boys are combatants in gaza
2) there is a systemic attempt to increase the number of children, when the cutoff is 18, 16-17y old are overpresented, when the cutoff is 19, 18-19y old are overrepresented
Oh and 0-1y old die a lot more than 2y old.
That's not bombing , that's "newborns are fragile in war settings and they die", then Hamas claims the death has been caused by Israeli forces directly: but bombs kill the 1y old and the 3y old the same in real life.
Also women die a lot less than men at all age brackets, that's not bombing either. That's men are combatants much more often than women are.
