Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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30577 Replies
Everyone else, including Haniyeh, was not framed as good guys. Haniyeh was framed exactly as how you framed Salman: someone who may or may not believe in the things he claims to support, and who gives lip service to antisemitism when needed to make sure he can spend his millions. Do you think we should stop dealing with Saudi Arabia? It's extremely similar.
As you said (and as most predicted) in areas where Hamas is no longer around other groups are filling the gap. Israel will eventually have to
Leading a genocidal terrorist organization for decades isnt “lip service”. Haniyeh was a willing participant in all the violence that preceded Oct 7th.
If you think 30+ more years of Palestinians being used to wage a war of attrition against Israel while guys like Haniyeh siphon off billions in aid money is leading to any peaceful resolution, you’re misguided. Haniyeh was one of the people benefiting the most from violent conflict, to the tune of 4 billion USD. Why on earth would he ever have wanted that situation to change?
You can claim that someone will just replace him and nothing will change but that’s not necessarily true. If Israel can cut off some of the avenues for stealing aid, such as the UNRWA, things may play out differently.
Whaddya mean lol no? Oct 07 was absolutely started by Hamas.
What precisely is there to get? Explain how being annoyed at the Spanish government therefore justifies acting like a disrespectful immoral scumbag by not honouring a minute's silence for flood victims? Because I really don't "get it". You also haven't provided any citation supporting your claim that the Spanish people want for Israelis to be dead, including the flood victims, so I'm dismissing your claim as false.
This was a coordinated attack by Islamic Jihadists. These plans were in place well before the Israelis made these chants.
Please explain how attacks on Israelis justifies racist chants by Israelis. Because that's another thing I just can't seem to get.
If you think 30+ more years of Palestinians being used to wage a war of attrition against Israel while guys like Haniyeh siphon off billions in aid money is leading to any peaceful resolution, you’re misguided. Haniyeh was one of the people benefiting the most from violent conflict, to the tune of 4 billion USD. Why on earth would he ever have wanted that situation to change?
You can claim that someone will just replace him and nothing will change but that’s not necessarily true. If Israel can
Haniyeh, who was just assassinated because of October 7, clearly benefited more from the relatively peaceful times. It is also why he was heavily involved in the hostage deals, although mostly sidelined by Sinwar. He wanted to go back to siphoning money and living in peace.
It is impossible to rise in that atmosphere without vocally supporting the violent aspects. The political and military wings are largely separated though. Israel will be dealing with more and more true believers in Israeli destruction, and more radicalized elements going forward.
Rubio would like military intelligence leaks about Israel related conflicts to be prosecuted for treason , i think we could call him a pro Israel hardliner right?
Israel has been illegally occupying Palestine and murdering and stealing for decades. Israel wasnt minding their own business on Oct 7. they were running an oppressive blockade in Gaza and murdering people all over the West Bank. armed resistance against a genocidal apartheid colony is just and moral.
Westerners seem to think that violence from them and their outposts is acceptable while blaming others for being violent and greedy when they resist.
Israel has been illegally occupying Palestine and murdering and stealing for decades. Israel wasnt minding their own business on Oct 7. they were running an oppressive blockade in Gaza and murdering people all over the West Bank. armed resistance against a genocidal apartheid colony is just and moral.
Westerners seem to think that violence from them and their outposts is acceptable while blaming others for being violent and greedy when they resist.
Sorry no, not interested in your catalogue of the entire 75 year conflict. Hamas started the current round of hostilities. Hamas broke the ceasefire, so they weren't "resisting" anything.
Sorry no, not interested in your catalogue of the entire 75 year conflict. Hamas started the current round of hostilities. Hamas broke the ceasefire, so they weren't "resisting" anything.
right, Western propaganda is audacious enough to claim there was a ceasefire.
The Islamic Jihadists brainwashed Israeli soccer fans into being raging *******s?
No, the Jihadists planned violent antisemitic attacks, then carried them out. Blaming the Israeli soccer fans is pure gaslighting. Your logic is akin to "If only they hadn't acted so slutty they wouldn't have been raped."
Pure victim blaming.
That being said there isn't any mystery what is going on here. Europe has imported a tremendous number of Muslims, who have poorly integrated and some have turned to violent Jihadism. And mainly because of religious oriented propaganda, are especially animated right now.
And for all the lip service, in most places authorities are indifferent. And if you are Jewish especially, you have to be vigilant. It is just a fact of life that people that live and travel in Europe have to manage.
But the truth is it isn't any worse than what Jews have been living with for 2000 years in Europe and MENA. If anything, this is just a return to historical norms after a brief hiatus from discrimination (in Europe at least. In MENA antisemitic discrimination has been steady for 2000+ years and counting).
right, Western propaganda is audacious enough to claim there was a ceasefire.
There was a ceasefire. Which Hamas broke. Ergo started the current round of hostilities.
No, the Jihadists planned violent antisemitic attacks, then carried them out. Blaming the Israeli soccer fans is pure gaslighting. Your logic is akin to "If only they hadn't acted so slutty they wouldn't have been raped."
Pure victim blaming.
No. Alleged or proven planned attacks is no excuse for racism by Israeli fans. Certainly no excuse for their repugnant refusal to observe the minute's silence. You can very easily condemn both.
There was a ceasefire. Which Hamas broke. Ergo started the current round of hostilities.
admittedly, by the Western meaning of the word ceasefire, you are probably correct. ceasefire to Western supremacists means that we can kill whoever we want at any time and in any amount while they must allow and not even complain about it.
No.Both aren't mutually exclusive. Alleged or proven planned attacks is no excuse for racism by Israeli fans. You can very easily condemn both.
There are probably hundreds of instances a year (maybe thousands) of poor fan behavior at European soccer games. If I was to single out this incident to be outraged, while being indifferent to the rest, that would indicate ulterior motives, such as antisemitism. As I am not an anstisemite, I am not going to do this.
At this same game there were small number of fans of the other team making pro Holocaust chants. No one cares.
If you want to have a discussion of bad behavior at soccer games, and how it should be policed better, knock yourself out. If you want to call for consequences for such behavior that are consistently employed, where Jews aren't singled out, great idea. I am sure there is no shortage of such discussions going on.
But no, I am not going to single out Jews for criticism, and blame them for being hunted in the streets of Amsterdam, like others in this thread are doing. That is bad faith antisemitic victim blaming IMO.
There are probably hundreds of instances a year (maybe thousands) of poor fan behavior at European soccer games. If I was to single out this incident to be outraged, while being indifferent to the rest, that would indicate ulterior motives, such as antisemitism. As I am not an anstisemite, I am not going to do this.
At this same game there were small number of fans of the other team making pro Holocaust chants. No one cares.
If you want to have a discussion of bad behavior at soccer games,
I'm not an anti Semite either and I 100% unequivocally condemn the Israeli fans being scumbags by refusing to observe a minute's silence. I 100% unequivocally condemn their racist chants. It's not anti Semitic at all to condemn racists and I'm quite frankly flabbergasted at your attempts to even argue this.
I also unequivocally 100% condemn scumbags making pro Holocaust chants. You see how easy that is to do, without being contrary at all whatsoever? You can be pro Israel and condemn repugnant actions by some of their football fans while recognising said scumbags don't represent Israel as a whole, just as you can condemn the attack.
Genuinely bemused how you'd see otherwise and your claim of it being anti Semitic to condemn the behaviour of Israeli fans is laughed at, as it's a patently ludicrous claim to make, sorry.
admittedly, by the Western meaning of the word ceasefire, you are probably correct. ceasefire to Western supremacists means that we can kill whoever we want at any time and in any amount while they must allow and not even complain about it.
There's no probably about it. Words have meanings such as "ceasefire", "broken ceasefire" and "Broken ceasefire by Hamas". Your initial claim that they didn't start the violence is false.
weird bc Israel murdered a ton of Palestinians in 2022 and 2023 before Oct 7. but I do understand why that is considered proper to the West. I also very well understand that rather than address the contradiction, people will simply deny reality.
Of course the behavior is poor. That is a given. But poor behavior by European soccer fans isn't something I spend a lot of time focusing on; so singling out this instance to be per formatively outraged and essentially victim blaming, seems like something only someone will ulterior motives would do.
I guess we can agree to disagree on this.
Haniyeh, who was just assassinated because of October 7, clearly benefited more from the relatively peaceful times. It is also why he was heavily involved in the hostage deals, although mostly sidelined by Sinwar. He wanted to go back to siphoning money and living in peace.
It is impossible to rise in that atmosphere without vocally supporting the violent aspects. The political and military wings are largely separated though. Israel will be dealing with more and more true believers in Israeli des
Maybe you’re personally related to Haniyeh. Otherwise, I’m not sure why you’d go as far to make stuff up to villainize Israel for assassinating him. This isn’t the first time you’ve introduced your own thoughts on Haniyeh’s motives and desires when trying to defend him.
You have no idea why he was involved in the hostage deals or how close Hamas’ political and military wings are.
Living in peace for Haniyeh meant stealing billions from the people he claimed to champion, all while ensuring that they continue the cycle of violence. Haniyeh was printing money off Palestinian death and suffering. Oct 7th was supposed to kick off a bull market for him, he just got greedy.
Maybe you’re personally related to Haniyeh. Otherwise, I’m not sure why you’d go as far to make stuff up to villainize Israel for assassinating him. This isn’t the first time you’ve introduced your own thoughts on Haniyeh’s motives and desires when trying to defend him.
You have no idea why he was involved in the hostage deals or how close Hamas’ political and military wings are.
Living in peace for Haniyeh meant stealing billions from the people he claimed to champion, all while ensuring that
Saying he is a greedy corrupt person who gave vocal support for violence as cover to siphon off billions of dollars doesn’t sound like defending him to me. Your explanation for Oct 7th from Haniyeh’s perspective sounds very convoluted. They did it to start a “bull market”? How exactly would that work?
Saying he is a greedy corrupt person who gave vocal support for violence as cover to siphon off billions of dollars doesn’t sound like defending him to me. Your explanation for Oct 7th from Haniyeh’s perspective sounds very convoluted. They did it to start a “bull market”? How exactly would that work?
Increased death and destruction leads to increased international sympathy leads to increased funding leads to increased amounts of stolen funds. Not sure why you’re confused on this as it’s been their playbook for decades. Calling what he said “lip service” implies he was just trying to appease other people and didn’t believe or truly support it. Haniyeh was just as committed to Hamas’ violence as Sinwar or any other senior Hamas leader.
Saying he is a greedy corrupt person who gave vocal support for violence as cover to siphon off billions of dollars doesn’t sound like defending him to me. Your explanation for Oct 7th from Haniyeh’s perspective sounds very convoluted. They did it to start a “bull market”? How exactly would that work?
its the typical racist trope that Palestinian leaders want to sacrifice their people to make Israel look bad. its utter junk and I am surprised you have no heard of it or even repeated it.
its the typical racist trope that Palestinian leaders want to sacrifice their people to make Israel look bad. its utter junk and I am surprised you have no heard of it or even repeated it.
I’ve previously linked a lengthy and detailed NATO report on Hamas’ use of human shields. It has nothing do with racism and certainly isn’t utter junk.
