LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Btw, it looks like Lebron was arguably a little better at 38 years old, but 39-year Lebron looks the same or worse than 39-year Jordan by virtue of a 20.9 PER and 22 ppg.. Looks the same as Wizards MJ and actually much worse....

So even the "longevity" stuff was bullcrap - he's breaking down like ALL 39 year olds do, including myself - I basically broke down at 39 and I heard a famous athlete say the same thing recently.. Now it's Lebron's turn...

Explain why LeBron is "much worse", being that LeBron has Jordan covered in basically every stat.

And please explain how the "longevity" stuff is "bullcrap". LeBron could average 5/3/2 this year and he would still have had the longest run at the top of the game in NBA history.

I got a glimpse of last night's debacle and I see what's going on... Lebron's achilles heel is infact turnovers and it's getting to the point that he cannot be on the floor.. So he can bumble and stumble his way to a triple-double but the turnovers are bad too frequently, so the coach will have to start taking the ball out of the his hands - I didn't realize he was so bad - he needs to just be a "banger" like I was in college... That's his best use in the NBA at this point, but with about 20 more minutes per game of course - but otherwise the same role - real talk... He's done, so longevity my ass - he's done at 39 just like everyone else.

The bolded is where you're deluding yourself because Lebron was not "at the top of the game" in 2004 and 2005 when he missed the playoffs with the East all-star center on his team.

He was not "at the top of the game" when the Spurs showed that a 35% and 6 TO player (worst caliber ever) won the 07' East.

He was not "at the top of the game" when he repeated this woat caliber against the 08' Celtics to lose a 7-game series.. You guys give Lebron props for "closeout" Game 7's but ignore him choking for the first 4 or 6 to have a Game 7 in the first place, such as 08' ECSF, 13' Finals, or 16' Finals, and then losing 2-1 leads in the 10' ECSF, 11' Finals, and 21' 1st Round.

Only in 2009 did Lebron enter the "top of the game"... He remained there in mostly a losing and needy capacity through 2020... That's 13 years.... Then he regressed to barely All-NBA from 2021 to 2025 - no longer a winning player that is expected to win titles - he was 1st Round loss and lottery twice each, and then an unprecedented sweep of losing 4 straight fourth quarter leads in the WCF..
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Wizards Jordan could gracefully hide his age by playing off-ball and facilitating ball movement by hitting assisted jumpers, while Lebron's point guard skillset makes his turnover-prone, old-man-ball the front-and-center thing on the court, so his age will get magnified with each turnover-filled dribble foray.

Team USA was nice enough to let his 5 turnovers in 24 minutes per game nearly lose us the Olympics, but this is the real NBA season, so Lebron is about to get embarrassed - again, his point guard skillset will put it front-and-center - he will be a laughing stock... Longevity my ass - he's a joke at 39 just like everyone else - a ceremonial joke.

None of them where real reasons for either question.

It's interesting that Rip Hamilton grew alongside MJ in 02', and averaged more PPG that year as 2nd option (20.0) than he ever averaged as 1st option, except 0.1 more in 06'.

So anyone that mattered played near or at capacity alongside MJ, while most guys that mattered cratered alongside Lebron's ball-dominance and imposition of spot-up roles (Love, Bosh, Ingram, Kuzma, Hughes, Jamison, Wade, IT, Rose, Clarkson, many more).

Jordan had no time to develop his team and was forced into the playoffs in his first season, while Lebron got 3 years to develop a favored high seed before entering his first playoffs - this development included Lebron and Zydrunas becoming all-stars in 05', while also adding a HOF coach and 2-way acquisition that was playing better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball:

05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-Defense
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-Defense

Jordan would obviously 3-peat with the East all-star center and an acquisition that was playing better than 1990 Pippen... However, Lebron's ball-dominant skillset simply doesn't fit with ball-handlers like Hughes, Westbrook, IT, Ingram, or even Wade because they struggle trying to be spot-up shooters for his stiff-arm game, while he can't be a spot-up shooter for them either... Otoh, Jordan's expert jumpshooting skill could spot-up or shoot over packed paints (didn't need spacing like bron's stiff-arm), so he could win with a bricklayer and fellow ball-handler like Pippen.

The reality is that the 06-10' Cavs often had better-ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls, while also having more scoring options, such as the reigning East all-star center as the team's 3rd option in 06', or a 20k scorer at third option in Jamison, who outscored Lebron in the 2007 1st Round in a heads-up matchup.. It's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen as your 3rd option, and also a better center than Jordan ever had in Ben Wallace or even fossil Shaq in 2010 - fossil Shaq was similar to fossil Rodman, who averaged 3/8 for the entire 97' playoffs, so he wasn't even the starter in the 98' Playoffs - Kukoc was the starter... Plus all-defender Varejao and a slew of other long-time veterans.

You're wrong because Jordan beats Lebron in PPG (22.9), burden (usage), winning 18 more games than the previous season with a lottery cast (meeting expectation), big defensive improvement, and of course the all-important turnover category... You're also aware that tiny differences in PER or WS mean little - it's only the material gaps that mean anything... So the stats are pretty even when you consider that Lebron's efficiency is carried by AD getting the defensive attention.. Meanwhile, the best roster in the league is drastically underachieving with Lebron's turnover brand of basketball... Wizards Jordan would easily play off AD in today's open format and drop 25 on easy jumpers to win the title with this stacked squad, and obviously Curry and Jokic would too... Otoh, Lebron's skillset dominates the ball, so he has weaker fits and perennial losing team.

This is a real post

What?

Jordan age 39 vs LeBron aged 40 (unfortunately MJ was retired at the age of 40 as even he said his body couldn't do it anymore).

20/6/4 vs 22/8/9 hard stats
44/29/82 vs 50/39/75 shooting
19.3 vs 20.9 PER
1.7 vs 3.7 BPM
0.099 vs 0.108 WS/48 mins

This isn't even close.

You are so delusional.

Jordan wouldn't carry this team. He'd demand they change the way they play so that he can get the ball in the post and shoot 40% on jumpers.

Lakers being the best roster in the league may be a thread high btw.

I specifically said "you".

That "drop-step" you think you have would get stopped by even the worst defenders in the NBA.

AD = best sidekick in the league

Knecht, Reaves, D-Lo, and Rui are as good as any 3 thru 6 group in the league

Only the Lakers enjoyed roster overhauls for each of the last 6 years, and the only reason that Lebron cannot contend with this finely-tuned roster is because he's old... Even I admit that prime Lebron would contend with this roster, but that's still an underachievement because MJ, Curry and others would obviously never lose with this roster.

I told you - FT's and the specific moves that I posted earlier - so I already answered your question and I was extremely specific and showed GIF's of the Jordan moves that he never does, but that I destroy guys with from before he was even in the league - sorry that you didn't like the answer and the truth.. Maybe if you could show me Lebron doing a half-spin to the baseline, or a spin from the triple-threat - but you can't - so I'm right.. I do those moves better than Lebron... And FT's..

Tons of guys do moves better than guys that are mostly athletic with no "bag" like lebron or shaq - that's pretty standard and intuitive... Many guys around the world have superior basketball skill in various moves than they do.. If you don't understand that, then I feel sorry that you never went within 10 feet of a spherical object - that isn't my fault and I cannot explain that away for you.

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Oh, and my jumphook is more talented - you can't have capacity for an elite jumphook with baby hands:

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Thread Cliffs

The thread started as an MJ vs Lebron debate, which the Lebron crowd lost so badly that they also lost the Kobe vs Lebron debate.

Kobe is better than Lebron for the same reasons as Jordan - his skillset produces better chemistry to produce the best teams and win with less, such as the roster he was given (organically), or a 2nd option that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options (Love, Bosh).

This same logic applies to Curry, Bird, Duncan and other highly-assisted skillsets that produced better chemistry - this better chemistry produces the best teams and wins with less, such as the roster they were given (organically)... All the stats and historical record support these facts.

Who's ready for some classic 'Bron-Ball" tonight because even Darvin Ham knew that a crap opponent is the perfect time to put the ball in Lebron's hands and let him feel like he was still the best player... Plus AD is like a cheetah anyway and needs the break... Expect AD to get in the low 20's tonight and Lebron to treat us with a wonderful dose of stiff-arm basketball and 31/11/10 with 4 turnovers - good enough to beat a bottom-feeder - classic "goat" stuff in the modern sense of the word (a euphemism for sucking)

Told you guys. Fallguy is nothing if not predictable.

Proposal to change the thread title to MJ > Kobe > fallguy coming off FIU’s bench for 1 minute as the 12th man > LeBron

Sticky his post where he is showing elite post moves and drop steps against elementary school kids on the playground for posterity.

You guys lost all the arguments that Lebron is as good as Jordan, Kobe, Curry, Jokic, or anyone in my top 11, so you guys were reduced to comparing Lebron to ME (see fidstar's posts above).... I win
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Yeah I didn't really read this one the first time - but not true at all.

It destroyed tons of guys.

Again, you never played, so you can't understand this stuff works.

So clearly Lebron is at least an elite player developer at this point in his career.

The issue is that you have a lot of naivety about Division I players and the circles they keep - the high school schedules, the national AAU schedules, and of course their college team and schedule... This entails tens of thousands of hours playing basketball, and frequently against future NBA players.

Accordingly, only someone that never played would say a Division I player "couldn't score on the worst NBA defender"... That's beyond absurd.. This person never went out for a team, let alone was good enough to be in the same circles that future NBA players are in..

Who do you think future NBA players face on their way to the league??.. Certainly not you... They face all the guys that didn't make the league, like me... So here's the reality.

Zach Randolph cut his teeth on me and others in Marion, Indiana... Marion is the most legendary basketball town in Indiana where "bullies get bullied", as Zach famously said to Boogie Cousins.

I won the regional title with Zach's older brother and played a lot with his younger brother (RIP)... We grew up playing with legends like Jay Edwards, James Blackmon, and hundreds of D1 players coming from Marion.. I'm proud to be one of them..

One of my most frequent stories in online threads is how I dunked on Zach 4 straight times in a game of 1-on-1 when he was 6'7" sophomore... But he isn't the only McDonald's All-American that I dunked on or played very well against - I dunked on Evan Burns at San Diego State and used to go back-and-forth with Mike Robinson at Haussler Hall in Peoria (Bradley U)... Again, these are D1 players and the circles we keep.

I remember when Richard Jefferson and Luke Walton asked me to play 2-on-2 with them at San Diego State.... It was me and Chris Walton (Luke's brother) against Luke and Richard... We won 2 of 9 games, but it was funny because after I scored on Richard twice in a row on the post, Luke turned to Richard and was like "that's 2 in a row" with his eyebrows raised... That was at the start of the first game, and I ended up carrying us because Chris Walton was horrible (Luke's brother) - i scored the vast majority of the points during the 9 games against Luke and Richard (dunked on Luke with 2 hands on baseline - these things aren't a big deal).

I was on the same AAU team as Bonzi Wells and Courtney James... I remember being the primary defender on Courtney Lewis at AAU Nationals in Winston-Salem with Steve Fisher a few feet away..

In Miami, I remember John Salmons teaching me lessons and destroying me more than I ever have from an individual defensive perspective... He couldn't stop me on the post, but I couldn't stop his perimeter iso's and I have PTSD over it..

I remember at FIU when I gave Gimel Martinez the same blow-by move that I gave Zach... Someone clowned Gimel after the poster "hey who did you dunk on" as we were running back down the court.. That was the pick-up game that HOF coach Shakey Rodriguez watched and sent his assistant coach to ask me to walk on... The same thing happened at Bradley.. I did all this on a full academic scholarship - basketball was my side thing.. I was always on stacked squads where I was one of many good players.. FIU had an NBA backcourt when I was there (Carlos and Raj).

I can go on and on and on and on and on and on with stories... The point is that it's ridiculous to say that a D1 player cannot score on the worst NBA defender because I guarantee that they've already done much better than that..

Didn't you see John Rodgers vs Jordan????... So the game is a lot more complicated than you realize and understand it to be

TLDR: it's a stunning display of naivety to say that a D1 player couldn't score on the worst NBA defender.. It doesn't even need to be said, but invariably, they've already done much better than that in their career many times over