How Scummy is This Move?
1/2. I'm not involved in the hand. V in this hand I guess fancies himself a pro. He plays about 10/8/1. Just a damn nit. He's mid 20's and I played with him for 8 hours and he never said a word.
In this hand, it gets to the river with about $300 in the pot. The board is AK995 no flush. I'll call the other player Hero (again not me). Hero checks the river with about $80 behind. V jams. Hero says "I guess I can't fold" and tables his hand AK. Dumb move, but it is what it is. Dealer only hears fold and quickly mucks Hero's cards and starts pushing pot to V. V quickly slides his cards into the muck before the dealer can.
Hero says, no I call. They call the floor, look at the tapes. Somebody asks V if he beat AK and he shakes his head no. Floor while waiting on the tapes to be reviewed asks V if he is willing to split the pot back to hero. V says no. Of course no remedy can happen so V keeps the pot.
I was kind of furious at the scummy behavior. Am I right to be or is this just tough luck on Hero for being unclear with his action.
From the hero's perspective there was clearly a showdown. Now as rule nerds I fully agree that it wasn't clearly a showdown and there is plenty of room for confusion, but it doesn't change the fact that hero clearly thought there was a showdown.
If I am floor I am not sure who I give the pot to, but
There was definitely confusion, but there definitely was not a showdown.
The fact that a confused player hasn't clearly acted and may even think there has been a showdown doesn't change that.
Honestly I doubt even he thought there was a showdown. The bettor hasn't shown his hand yet, and the uncalled bet is still sitting in front of him, waiting to be called.
Of course, as I have to point out several times a year, the policy of allowing players to bet or call without moving their chips is what led to this situation. If, every time this guy had played poker, every bet had to be physically placed by the player, and then brought into the pot by the dealer, there is no way even this easily confused fellow would have thought they had reached the showdown.
I disagree.
If dealer clearly heard what was said they should clarify the intent of the hero. Literally explicitly ask if he is calling or folding. Dealer is assuming action and villain is freerolling by insta-mucking a losing hand.
Eh, I wouldn't fuss about it if that had happened, but I wouldn't expect every dealer to do that. There should probably be a house rule on what the dealer should do in this situation, but I doubt there was.
I think you are a dealer, or have been one in the past. In places you have dealt, have dealers been explicitly told how to handle this?
This is correct and I was jumping to conclusions by blaming villain. That said, villain had a clear opportunity to freeroll here. There is confusion on what his opponent did and he instantly mucked to take advantage of that confusion so it couldn't be reversed or clarified.
His self muck also meant that IF the floor overruled the dealer and said it was a call that V would lose since he would not have had a hand to showdown.
Hero also could have been freerolling.
Lessons to learn...
1. Use "action words" very carefully but especially when action is on you
2. Protect your hand always. In this case that meant physically protecting the cards but it can mean much more than that including, making sure cards are read correctly, don't allow another players "fold" to kill your hand, being aware of the action on the table so you don't prematurely "fold", calling out obvious collusion, etc.
3. Work as a community to get rid of no chip calls unless explicit, get rid of ALL one chip calls and one chip all ins. Verbal bets and calls are and should remain allowed but don't do "A" and say "Z". So use chips or use words or use chips and words that agree for bets, raises, calls.
Yeah, I can't fault V here basically at all. Say he has T9, Hero says "I guess I can't fold" and tables AK, V tables T9, and Hero says "welp I didn't act, now I fold." This forum is full of tales like that with players in V's shoes getting freerolled.
In no universe is "I guess I can't fold" binding action, just as if he had said "I don't think I can call" etc. He threw his cards forward facing a bet with no verbal or chip indication he was calling.
He and the dealer heard "muck", opponents hand is in the muck, pot is headed his way...😵
You expect him to say, "Hold on dealer, you sure he didn't want to call?"
Dealer only hears fold and quickly mucks Hero's cards and starts pushing pot to V.
Who's hand went into the muck first? Last player with a hand gets the pot.
If I bet the river and get shown a better hand that gets mucked and
the pot is coming my way... I'm getting my hand in the muck in a hurry.
/rant
Not related to any one specific post ITT, but it's damn rare that I even see a player table a hand properly anymore.
Just ****ing do this and every problem goes away.
And stop ****ing doing this.
Yes I realize that the people in this thread are generally those that already understand this concept.
/end rant
Villain should’ve just said he had him beat but he obviously wanted to tilt the guy
There was definitely confusion, but there definitely was not a showdown.
The fact that a confused player hasn't clearly acted and may even think there has been a showdown doesn't change that.
Honestly I doubt even he thought there was a showdown. The bettor hasn't shown his hand yet, and the uncalled
Yeah. You are right. I reread the OP and I definitely thought his words were closer to call when I initially read it. I am wrong. Villain gets the pot. No doubt.
That said, I do think the 2nd mucking player has absolutely no recourse if it is ruled a call.
/rant
Not related to any one specific post ITT, but it's damn rare that I even see a player table a hand properly anymore.
Just ****ing do this and every problem goes away.
And stop ****ing doing this.
Yes I realize that the people in this thread are generally those that already understand this concept.
As a dealer, what I really hate are the players who show only one card to win (causing the other player to auto-muck and then never show the other card. Such as on the river, there is an Ace on the board, player one bets, player two calls, shows an Ace, player one mucks. Player two never shows the second card.
Technically the 2nd player doesn't have to show. They have the last live hand. That said, half of the table is curious about their 2nd card. Just an awkward situation for the dealer.
So did the “hero” release his cards forward? Prior to showdown, releasing your cards forward is a binding fold. And “I guess I can’t fold” is -not- a verbal declaration of call. So if he released his hand and never said “call” or pushed chips forward, it seems to me like the only clear action that the hero took was a fold, and villain should be awarded the pot. If he exposed his cards while keeping them in his hands, it would be a different story.
“Hero” got a learning moment, that is what happened.
So did the “hero” release his cards forward? Prior to showdown, releasing your cards forward is a binding fold.
Just to clarify (maybe be pedantic), almost every casino I have played in, releasing cards forward is not a binding fold...... If the player can recover them before the dealer mucks them. Whether it is releasing them and then grabbing them back before the dealer can grab them, or even yelling "Wait!!!" To try and stop the dealer. If the cards can be recovered they are not dead.
There are many reasons for this, a small reason is the instance where a player looks like he is trying to show but the cards end up face down after forward motion (they turn mid-air) from a poor toss. A dealer should not reveal them, but a good dealer clarifies before mucking as well.
There are other reasons as well. That is why generally hitting the deep muck (being un-retrieveable) is what kills a hand, not forward motion.
Are you sure you're not thinking of showdown rules? I was pretty sure that at most places if you toss your cards forward when facing a bet, you have folded. It is very rarely that I have seen any ambiguous cases like this though.
Just to clarify (maybe be pedantic), almost every casino I have played in, releasing cards forward is not a binding fold...... If the player can recover them before the dealer mucks them. Whether it is releasing them and then grabbing them back before the dealer can grab them, or even yelling "Wait!
I can't think of a single casino where any of this is true, but then again I probably wouldn't play in one.
At showdown? Sure.
Facing a bet? It shouldn't be in a well run room.
Just to clarify (maybe be pedantic), almost every casino I have played in, releasing cards forward is not a binding fold...... If the player can recover them before the dealer mucks them. Whether it is releasing them and then grabbing them back before the dealer can grab them, or even yelling "Wait!
You left out a condition. In nearly all rooms I have played where I also know the specific rule, releasing your hand forward WHILE FACING ACTION is a binding fold. Your example for why this should not be the rule is easily addressed with this actual rule. When that player is trying to show cards tossing them forward he is not facing action. It is showdown.
I believe you are confusing showdown to facing a bet. In this case as stated by OP this is NOT showdown. Hero is facing a bet which is never called.
Yeah, I can't fault V here basically at all. Say he has T9, Hero says "I guess I can't fold" and tables AK, V tables T9, and Hero says "welp I didn't act, now I fold." This forum is full of tales like that with players in V's shoes getting freerolled.
In no universe is "I guess I can't fold" binding
A few years ago, I was playing 1 3, and the straddle was on. I raised to 20 with jj, and got 3bet by a slightly erratic player to 70. I call; we both have 500ish behind. Flop 843r or somesuch, and the guy just ships it. I tank, hemming and hawing, before saying 'I'm probably going to have to fold', but making no motion whatsoever with cards or chips. Opponent triumphantly flips over A9 thinking the hand was over. I shoved in my stack, won the hand, and declined the guy's offer to fight in the parking lot.
A few years ago, I was playing 1 3, and the straddle was on. I raised to 20 with jj, and got 3bet by a slightly erratic player to 70. I call; we both have 500ish behind. Flop 843r or somesuch, and the guy just ships it. I tank, hemming and hawing, before saying 'I'm probably going to have to fol
Two douchebags in this story, just like in the OP.
Probably. Only one of them was 6 IPAs in. And it wasn't the guy who made the error more likely to be induced by intoxication.
Humorously enough, the opponent in question played baseball/softball in leagues against my father for 30+ years. Buffalo is incestuous
You left out a condition. In nearly all rooms I have played where I also know the specific rule, releasing your hand forward WHILE FACING ACTION is a binding fold. Your example for why this should not be the rule is easily addressed with this actual rule. When that player is trying to show cards tos
I have seen more than a few times where a player is facing action, goes in the tank, releases his cards and immediately grabs them back because they realized something just as the released them (i.e. they had top pair and a straight draw and missed, but didn't realize they hit a backdoor flush). The cards were not mucked yet so they were live. Possibly shady, of course, most likely just a last second realization.
Besides, one of the biggest/best known angles relies on being able to retrieve cards in the face of action. UTG raises, two late callers. Flop comes out, UTG bets, next player goes into the tank. Wants to call but is clearly worried about the 3rd player yet to act after them. 3rd player pretends to be distracted and tosses his cards forward out of turn (but facing action), quickly realizes his mistake and grabs them back.
2nd player then calls. 3rd player (who flopped a set), either then raises or mumbles to himself about calling since 2nd player called. He is of course being shady (it is 100% an angle). He is trying to get as much money in the pot as possible using the rules that an unmucked hand is not dead, even if facing action.
Don't get me wrong, if cards go forward when facing action and then are retrieved, it should really be looked at skeptically and the floor should almost always be called (with warnings and penalties in play), but it isn't a dead hand in most places.
