LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

fallguy should be revered and respected.

He had it all and decided he wasn’t about that life.

Not everyone wants to be a multimillionaire basketball star. Sometimes the simple life is better.

The grass isn’t always greener.

I commend fallguy.

I tried in spurts, so I know how hard it was, but it was a side thing in my mind - I was never groomed to be a hooper or care like a lot of my peers.

And the real issue back then was my diet... I would play pretty amazing for 2 to 3 days and then need massive recharge, but I was eating crap and not refueling - I was eating like a student instead of an athlete that was performing at a D1 level... I also didn't live in the athletes' dorms, which had their own cafeteria, and I quit the team long before such a thing would be considered.. I was put on the team on a whim after they saw me play a couple pickup games, and I quit on a whim a couple months later, not that far after the North Carolina game.

That's always how I got respect - some guy mixes it up with me and needs the hospital.. He wasn't nearly the first guy.. I've been told that I have knives for elbows and knees - heavy Jamaican bones... Beats Virgin Islands any day ask anyone.

Even though I think some things could've gone differently (like growing up on a regular American food diet that's high in animal protein instead of Indian dal and rice, which is a relatively weak protein source and led to many physical issues), it was quite obvious that I was never going to be an NBA player... I don't remember overtly telling myself this but maybe it set in on some level after the North Carolina game... It was such a massive gym... It felt so grand and ceremonial, and yet we were about to get sweaty and compete.... An hour or more after the game, a teammate and I walked back onto the court just to see the court one more time and the banners... Once we got back onto the court, it was completely empty except Raja was standing alone with his parents in a corner, and they were huddled together with tissue papers - he had a really bad game in the biggest opportunity of his life against the biggest-name school in the country - on national tv - it was a blown opportunity... Most people don't realize that Raja was undrafted and had one of the most arduous journeys to the NBA - that North Carolina game didn't help... Or maybe it did

So fallguy, your D1 experience can largely be summarized as excelling in 1-on-1 against star players due to an NBA-ready body and strong on-ball skills, and proudly injuring teammates in practice for street cred but being completely lost in actual 5-on-5 games due to remarkably poor basketball IQ and never getting any playing time as a result.

And somehow this experience makes you an expert at understanding what types of skills lead to highly efficient outcomes at the team level? And despite you being so bad at team ball that your coach never played you despite all that athleticism and skill and 1-on-1 excellence, you keep inserting your own skills and attributes into the discussion as though they are specifically useful for team chemistry?

Matt R.

You grew on me.

Sorry I was a gigantic dick last couple of years.

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MJ was better at 39 and 40 years old than Lebron:

IMPACT

STATS

BURDEN

ADJUSTED FOR PACE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTOhl8sF...

TLDR: Lebron is a 100% grade A fraud - even the "longevity" was a fraud - he's completely washed and FINISHED at 39 years old just like everyone else, and he was only a top 3 player from 2008-2021, which is 13 years "at the top of the game" - there's nothing "goat" about that.

In 2007, the Spurs revealed that a 35% and 6 TO per game player (the worst caliber that anyone ever played) won the weakest East in history, which 1-star teams were routinely winning, such as Iverson, Kidd and Dwight

Currently as an old man, Lebron's horrific brand of ball and chemistry is being massively-exposed even more than normal, in addition to his weak leadership, defense, and the metrics shown above.

Lebron was only a top 3 player in the league from 2009 to 2018 because he manufactured 8 straight Finals in the East and then lottery in his first season out West in 2019 - so what a massive exposure of the fraud that he had going in the East by putting 3 franchise players from 3 different teams on 1 team.. Without this kind of deck-stacking in the West, he was instantly lottery in 2019 - he was really bad that year... Then he lost a 2-1 lead to Booker in 2021, while also getting the same 6 TO's and 35% against the 08' Celtics that he got against the 07' Spurs... He also won the 2nd option chip in 2020 where he was carried to the Finals by AD dominating Jokic... These are strong arguments that he wasn't top 3 in the league in 2007, 2008, and 2019-present... Again, longevity my ass.. Too many fans are blinded by dunks and dunkers.

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ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT MJ:

1993' BJ..................... 4.0
94-96' BJ.................... 3.9 (no MJ)

90-93' Pippen........... 6.2
94-95' Pippen........... 5.4 (no MJ)
96-98' Pippen........... 5.8
99-03' Pippen........... 5.1 (no MJ)

89-93' Horace........... 2.5
94-02' Horace........... 2.3 (no MJ)

90-95' Rodman......... 1.7 (no MJ)
96-98' Rodman......... 2.8
99-00' Rodman......... 1.3 (no MJ)

93-94' Longley.......... 1.2 (no MJ)
96-98' Longley.......... 2.4
99-00' Longley.......... 1.1 (no MJ)

80-87' Cartwright..... 1.6 (no MJ)
89-94' Cartwright..... 1.5

ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT LEBRON:

12-14' Kyrie............... 5.8 (no Lebron)
15-17' Kyrie............... 5.3
18-24' Kyrie............... 5.8 (no Lebron)

04-10' Bosh............... 2.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Bosh............... 1.6
15-16' Bosh............... 2.3 (no Lebron)

11-14' Love................ 3.0 (no Lebron)
15-18' Love................ 2.1
19-21' Love................ 2.8 (no Lebron)

05-08' Mo................... 5.7 (no Lebron)
09-10' Mo................... 4.6
11-13' Mo................... 5.3 (no Lebron)

09-10' Chalmers........ 4.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Chalmers........ 3.6

99-04' Snow................ 6.9 (no Lebron)
06-07' Snow................ 4.1

01-05' Hughes........... 3.8 (no Lebron)
06-08' Hughes........... 3.3

2018 Ingram.............. 3.9 (no Lebron)
2019 Ingram.............. 3.0
20-25' Ingram............ 5.2 (no Lebron

2019 Kuzma............... 2.5
22-25' Kuzma............. 3.8 (no Lebron)

2018 Ball..................... 7.2 (no Lebron)
2019 Ball..................... 5.4
20-22' Ball................... 6.1 (no Lebron)

00-09' Jamison........... 1.8 (no Lebron)
2010 Jamison............. 1.3
11-12' Jamison........... 1.9 (no Lebron)

04-10' Wade............... 6.6 (no Lebron)
11-14' Wade............... 4.7

19-22' D-Lo................. 6.7 (no Lebron)
23-25' D-Lo................. 6.2

09-21' Westbrook....... 8.5 (no Lebron)
2022 Westbrook..........7.1

15-18'' KCP.................. 2.0 (no Lebron)
19-21' KCP................... 1.6
22-25' KCP................... 2.2 (no Lebron)

Lebron lowered all his cast-members' assists, with almost no exceptions, while MJ increased all his teammates' assists, with rare exception... Since teammates saw higher assists alongside MJ, we know that MJ's assists weren't offsetting a teammate reduction like Lebron's, so high-assist teams and strategy were possible with MJ's skillset.

Ultimately, high assist teams are possible with highly-assisted skillsets like Curry, Duncan, Kobe, Kareem, Russell - all the dynasties... Otoh, Lebron's abnormally-low assisted rates (ball-domination) imposed spot-up roles and lowered teammates' assists, which represents a weaker brand of ball that underachieves favored rosters, such as losing more than anyone ever has with the preseason favorite or Finals teams.

No, it's the hoops experience and my professional analytic ability - I was an analyst.

I can honestly say that I would coach these Lakers better than Reddick is... The first thing that I would do is make Lebron a "banger" like Charles Oakley - the ball would be 100% completely out of his hands and he would literally never have it - he is such a massive negative right now (stats above) that he isn't even good enough to be out there in any kind of winning capacity... The only way that he can contribute to a contender to is to transform himself into a "banger" that tries to get 10 rebounds and a few layups per game - a good game would be like 10/10.. His offense is that much of a negative right now and people don't realize that this caliber almost cost us the Olympics when he averaged 5 turnovers in 24 minutes per game - this translates to the 6-7 turnover per game in the NBA and this caliber underachieved our massive talent advantage and required Curry to save us... Based on these signs, I predicted that Lebron would be a turnover disaster this season... But as usual, someone replied with something that they learned on TV about how Lebron was "the most important player" in the Olympics, which implies that they couldn't have won without his turnover machine and negative basketball disaster.. it's literally the opposite - he almost cost us the gold and we would've been much better without him and playing Tatum instead.. This should be obvious to casual fans in hindsight, while I was aware at the time.

FG's way of assesssing.

What is MJ better than LeBron at = The most important things in the history of basketball

What is LeBron better than MJ at = Actually bad for your team.

Then write paragraphs of texts about it that don't actually mean anything, and when disputed, move on.

Oh, and you have to be good at cut and paste.

LeBron might finally be at the end. FG will be so happy.

Didn't your career peak as a junior real estate analyst? Doesn't that mostly entail like entering rent roll and running somebody else's financial models? Weren't you also trying to pretend that your job in real estate was about M&A fully knowing that others would associate that with a legitimately wall street front office job that is far more prestigious and pays much better?

I'm struggling to see how entering rent roll and running pre-built models to do DCF and all that under an existing valuation framework, mainly for due diligence and to justify decisions that have already been made levels above you, has anything to do with your nonsense about assist target and brand of ball and so on.

fixed

I performed valuations of private middle-market businesses with revenues of 5 to 100 million, and participated in the marketing of some of those businesses to a pool of buyers.. The size of our clients and our front-end sales techniques were the keys to the brilliant scam - we're talking about collecting a 65k retainer for the valuation and then we tell the business owner the bad news that their company of 30 million in revenues is worth less as a going concern than the building they own - so only a tiny fraction of the thousands of businesses that we bring in on the front end and collect their retainer do we actually market and sell to buyers.. We know all this upfront (that there's a 95% chance that we won't ever even market their company, let alone sell it).

Before this "job" (called i-banking, aka "M&A" - it's all a scam), I actually worked for a more obvious scam - the infamous Louis Schooler of the Western Financial Planning scam (WFP) - you can google that one - it might be on American Greed one day... I was one of the sales guys that cold-called people and then met them at their homes to rope them into buying our land investments.. The idea was to "diversify your portfolio from soft assets (401k) to hard assets (land), which have run counter-cyclically to one another at times historically, thus helping you better-withstand swings in the economy"... It was a completely legitimate proposal except the land that I sold was encumbered by mortgages and not worth what we said it was - I knew none of this at the time... I found out a decade later around 2013 or so that the company had been shut down and fined $150 million by the SEC - the owner (Schooler) disappeared and was never found... I looked up my boss, who was right below Schooler - and he was literally working at Home Depot on his LinkedIn.. This dude had a pickle-ball and full basketball court in his backyard during the scam, but had to work at Home Depot after the SEC came down on the company.

After the WFP and the M&A job, I worked for Jones Lang LaSalle (JLL) - so this means that I clicked a few buttons and your entire company must move to another location because perhaps there's a way to get out of the current lease and into a much better one across town, which makes your company some dough... I managed all the corporate office space locations for one of our clients, who was the most prominent bank in the country (high-rise corporate office space leases, not the retail banking locations).. The idea was to maximize the portfolio of leases by getting out of unused spaces or less promising spaces where the rents were heading downward (and we were locked in at a higher rate) - stuff like that - identify these opportunities in a portfolio of over 300 leases nationwide to maximize the efficiency of the portfolio... Then we managed the execution of these transactions by coordinating with dealmaking teams at other JLL locations around the country and sometimes negotiating the deals ourselves... Regarding your "rent for rolls" issue or comment or whatever - I don't know what you're talking about.

You do understand that you're completely undermining your point right? Every year, thousands of D1 athletes are recruited to work for top wall street banks whose clients have revenues in 10s and 100s of billions. When people are bragging about working in investment banking, that's what they are referring to. I mean, we all gotta do what we gotta do to pay the bills, but what do you think the hiring standards are for analysts that perform valuation at a pretend investment bank that isn't even doing proper valuation, but is just producing nonsense valuation aimed at scamming people? Though I guess it's interesting that you have professional experience producing motivated nonsense, as you've done ITT.

At that scale (5 to 100 million revenue is tiny), even legitimate firms are hiring fairly ordinary white collar folks and require nothing remotely close to extraordinary analytical skills. I mean even legit high-end banking jobs don't require you to be that analytical, just have to be willing to work hard and not be a total dumbass.

This is much worse than I thought, given all your bragging, I thought you at least worked on legit real estate deals (which would require junior analysts to parse through rent rolls and do cash flow analysis), but in reality you managed office space and don't even understand basic real estate valuation concepts?

Lebron has unassisted or ball-dominant scoring, and also ball-dominant assists.. Neither are the best type of scoring and passing, so there's nothing about his offense that compares to Bird or Jordan...

You can get specific and say that Lebron is better at-the-rim than Bird, but that only matters as it relates to team offense, teammate performance, etc, and Bird's style affected the team and teammates' more positively than Lebron's ball-dominance and imposition of spot-up roles (bad fits with teammates and underperforming teams).. Accordingly, Bird was a better scorer than lebron by virtue of similar PPG, but also teammates playing closer to their capacity/career highs alongside Bird or Jordan, than alongside Lebron.

The statistical record shows that Jordan beats Lebron in scoring, defense, team offense, team defense, PPG, OREB, SPG, BPG, FT, turnovers, plus/minus, possessions used (usage), efficiency on those possessions (ORTG), and also PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, raptor, and more...

Otoh, Lebron has higher defensive rebounding (positional stat), while also having more ball-dominant assists and unassisted buckets (low team assists).. That's literally it.

Any fool can dominate the ball to get 1 or 2 more assists - this doesn't mean Lebron is better at passing or smarter than Bird or Jordan.. Everything says otherwise such as his weak chemistry, teammate development, winning, team offense, team assists, coaching carousal, roster underperformance, perennial losing with every team (never a dynasty), and the statistical reality of him lowering everyone's assists and increasing their assisted rate (imposing spot-up roles for 22 years)...

All of these things say that Lebron has low IQ compared to Bird, Jordan, Curry, Duncan, or Kobe, who were highly-assisted players and capable of high team assists, #1 offenses, great chemistry, teammate development and dynasties.

And Jordan actually averaged 11 assists when he dabbled in the ball-dominant style in 1989, but this doesn't make him a better passer than Lebron or Luka, just like it doesn't make them better when they play the assist-friendly way - they're all great passers, but Luka and Lebron opt to play a pass-friendly way by monopolizing the ball to get more personal assists.. It isn't impressive and it's the most losing style in history - bigs and jumpshooters win much more.

We're talking D1 hoopers, not trust fund golfers, rowers, swimmers or tennis players.

See that's how you know that you're losing the argument - you have to try to change crap - but you're losing so badly that it's obvious.

There certainly weren't many hoopers being recruited because the jobs I had required Master's degrees.. In some cases, you can get a good M&A job as an undergrad but only if you went to Ivy league or a few other top schools like Wharton.. Otherwise, employers want to see grad school on your resume... Everyone that I worked with went to grad school and most went Ivy league.. Myself and an Asian colleague of mine went to San Diego State, but otherwise the worst schools were USC and UCLA.

Nonsense - maybe in the 80's or something if you watched the "Wallstreet" movie with Michael Douglas.

It's naive to think that i-banking jobs are all on Wallstreet.. That's dumb as hell... Many people that make tons of money prefer the more laid-back standard of living on the West Coast or even Texas that includes better hours, sexier deals, and just a superior standard of living than the suicidal pitchbook jobs in NYC.

I-banking for private middle-market companies of the size that I mentioned only exists at the company that I worked for, and 2 or 3 competitors - if you owned a company with 10 million in revenue, your only option to find a pool of quality buyers/bidders is a specialized i-bank like the one I worked for, or our few competitors - that's why it was so lucrative - there was no one in the space - Goldman Sachs could care 2 bird shits about a company with only 5, 10, 50, or 100 million in revenue.

You keep mentioning "rent rolls", which tells me that you're talking about real estate on a completely lower level... I had analysts run models for me, otherwise how would I know whether we should exercise the termination clause on this $100 million deal (lease) and tell you to move your 500 employees to the skyscraper on the other side of town?.... smh, this is getting ridiculous.

fallguy,

If you're this super successful "analyst", why do you spend (essentially waste) a gigantic amount of time posting itt, and others across the internet, where people don't really care what you have to say and do not even respect you?

Like get a real hobby, do something truly productive for humanity, um I donno how about go outside and touch some grass?

This isn't meant as criticism, I'm just trying to understand the Why of it all. And don't give me that crap that you have to defend Jordan and educate people... because nearly everyone who has an opinion about GOAT Jordan/LeBron is going to be very set in their ways and hard with their beliefs.

I statistically-proved that lebron's game is inherently flawed, suboptimal, and inferior to MJ and others.

Regarding the rest of your post - I don't watch the games or the coverage, so you guys spend time doing that, which is a much dumber hobby than this and explains why your predictions are so bad.. I remember you saying that the Pelicans had real title equity last year (or the year before) and were really high on Zion.. I proceeded to say that Zion had a Mike Tyson, Shea Cotton, or Larry Johnson physique that flames out super-early, but you ignored this pretty insightful warning and pretended it was just crazy-talk from some guy on the internet - your standard defense I'm sure when your knowledge proves inferior.

Only in the sense that someone with my tools should've been a dominant player in organized games and not just in pickup and 1-on-1.

Many talented players suffer from this affliction and it's usually skill-related - despite good athleticism and/or touch, we lack a couple key fundamentals that prevent a seamless transition from 1-on-1 and pickup ball to organized games with refs.

The great players like MJ, Magic, Bird, or whoever - they're always horrible analyzers of the game, whether it's GM'ing or coaching, or otherwise... Otoh, it's the borderline players like Phil Jackson, Popovich and Steve Kerr that prove to be the best GM's and coaches - they actually understand the game the best, as required for guys with less talent...

Talent allows players to be oblivious, while the guys on the fringe must be more wary of everything, such as using a player's strength's against them (like using Lebron's ball-dominance against him and turning it into a weakness that hurts his team), or certain physics to enhance their performance..

I remember when Jerry Krause came and talked to us in the preseason and Bradley, and he told us how he got Kerr to play good defense - he told Kerr to be jumping kind of like a boxer as the ball-handler approaches or when they're near - this way his legs don't have to go from stationary to moving because they'll already be moving and able to go the direction they're needed that much quicker - it's physics.. This is the kind of stuff that prime Lebron or MJ never needed, or Carlos Arroyo on the college level.

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Exhibit C

300 years of slavery created a race that could not read (Exhibit A), which means that almost no one went to college for a long time - this doesn't cure overnight - it's improved 1 exception at a time, i.e. "i'm the first one in my family to go to college".

Lack of education is passed down like alcoholism, and so is vernacular, thought processes, and lower socioeconomic status.. This slow rate that humans change is why every city has a part of town where it looks like slavery just ended yesterday - blacks are undereducated and living in squalor just like they were when slavery first ended in the 1876... Not much has changed, and only the rare exceptions get out.

This is all relevant to explain the lower education levels of blacks in this country, and their lower likelihood of going to grad school in a sport that is mostly black - it's because they're ancestors came here UNWILLINGLY, while blacks that come here willingly (current Nigerians) do better than whites and Asians (Exhibit B and C).

TLDR: a lower proportion of D1 hoopers go to grad school compared to other sports, due to 300 years of slavery.

Btw, the slave trade from Africa to the Americas was unique and not like other slavery situations around the world.. There's never been a race that took millions of another race across an ocean to start a new country.. This gave America the unique cultural diversity that no other country has, which proves that it was a unique slave situation - the uniqueness of the situation means that the negative impacts on blacks cannot be dismissed with "oh, all countries had slaves and it was common" bs argument.. carry on

One more thing, I've always said that the real "reparations" should be in the form of an education bill, where every black kid that meets certain criteria gets free tuition and room/board to the same private school that Ben Shapiro's kids to go to... Now of course, all the kids can't fit into the school, so other schools will need to be built, converted or merged to make this happen... I guarantee that by the time the kid is 8 years old, he'll have a completely different outlook that's more conducive for societal success than he would've had.. Everyone knows that our government throws a trillion at many things that are less worthy, so let's throw a trillion at this in an education bill and tap into a natural resource/economy-booster called "untapped potential".

I present really well, so I got in circles of mostly Ivy Leaguers.

My roommate in Newport Beach went to Wharton, and he was the only guy at the company that never went to grad school.

You've invented an argument so you can try to win, but I never said that I was "top talent" in finance or hoops - I simply have a sufficient combination of both that makes me rare... There aren't many D1 hoopers in the finance game, which makes me special, hence my insight itt.

Enjoying basketball as something to watch is a lot less dumb than copy posting thousands of times across the internet.

And for the record I didn’t think you were crazy for having a different opinion than me.

I just think you’re foolish to “prove” something on the internet via thousands of hours of copy/pasting across the internet.

There’s a famous saying:

“Even if you win an argument on the internet, you’re still ******ed.”

Disclaimer: I am not calling “you” ******ed. It’s just that it is typical for arguments on the internet to be mostly pointless and very drawn out with people who don’t care what you have to say. So winning the argument is not any type of achievement whatsoever.

That key fundamental you lack is basketball IQ. We went over this. You don't have an intuitive feel for the game, make poor decisions with the ball and don't know what to do without the ball.

This is why your claim that your D1 experience, which is entirely due to your physical talent despite terrible basketball IQ and led to virtually no actual 5-on-5 basketball, gives you some sort of insight is pure nonsense. Totally random high school basketball players, who have absolutely no chance at playing college basketball, have way better basketball IQ than you do. Their insight would be far more valuable as well. If you think about this, it's obvious - why would being physically gifted automatically make you more insightful about the game of basketball? It doesn't. So those that aren't as physically gifted, but could carve out a role for themselves at a high level, are often the ones that tend to understand the game at the highest level. Conversely, those that are highly physically gifted, yet were much worse than their peers who were less physically gifted, are the ones that are least qualified to analyze the game.

Men's D1 basketball is only about 50% black, so even if literally none of them goes to graduate school due to racism, etc, that would cut the rate by less than half.

Also, you have this weird notion that going to graduate school is some amazing accomplishment. It isn't. Most graduate programs are very easy to get into and teach things that are easily learned on your own. There are graduate programs that are highly selective and prestigious (i.e. top MBA programs, top Law Schools, Ph.D programs generally, though it varies by field, Medical schools in the US generally, and so on), but far more common are programs where you just pay money to bring your education level up to par with smart kids that didn't need any of that or just buy some time to figure what you want to do with life.

Again, what does any of this have to do with your analytical skills? You didn't go to an Ivy League school, you just hung out with Ivy League grads. Is this another brand of ball theory of intelligence osmosis? And honestly, the average Ivy League grad isn't that bright either. It's a high bar for you, but it's not that high.

Again, you had a fairly typical white collar job, you weren't in the top 1% or anything. And countless D1 hoopers are at that level of white collar job. And even if you look at the upper echelon, it's not that uncommon - if you meet lots of wall street folks, college athletes and yes even basketball players are very common. You can literally google this, though I've met a ton myself.

Anyway fallguy, it's fairly clear that you peaked at a relatively junior level a long time ago in real estate and whatever you've been doing since clearly doesn't measure up, otherwise you'd be bragging about it too. What happened since then? Drug problems? Legal issues? Other miscellaneous mental issues? I mean your posting habits (across the internet really) are definitely suggestive of some serious issues, but curious how deep this goes.