LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
wow thread is way better talking about financial scams than debating how good horace grant was in 1993
should've just fwd to this part back in 2017
Fallguy spends about 7 hours a day posting about how bad LeBron is and researching for data that supports this idea. Supposedly he does this on a bunch of other forums too. He is probably posting in Facebook and Reddit discussions etc. I just imagine this is his full time life.
If you won't stand to have a life, you'll fall for spending your entire day posting about Jordan being the GOAT on the internet.
There’s a famous saying:
“Even if you win an argument on the internet, you’re still ******ed.”
Disclaimer: I am not calling “you” ******ed.
I don't know what *******ed means and don't care - the point is that I won the argument as you imply above (bolded), and the thread title was changed long ago to reflect lebron's inferiority.
So I already won a long time ago, and I'm just having fun now by rubbing your faces in my victory and vastly superior knowledge.
You don't know what you're watching, so it's pretty dumb to watch something that you have very low understanding of... It's like a layman spending all their time watching surgeries or something.
enjoying basketball as something to watch is a lot less dumb than copy posting thousands of times across the internet.
You guys spend hours watching a game that you don't understand and falling for a fraud, while my time is spent more nobly by pointing out how dumb you guys are and exposing the Lebron fraud..
So my time has purpose, while you're a fraud victim that watches something you don't understand, and this misunderstanding causes bad takes like the Pelicans and Zion take - what a bad use of time... And that's just one example... I'm sure a cursory glance at other threads will find more kindergarten-level takes from you... Hey, why don't you give us another one of your great hoops predictions (so we can all have a good laugh).. Show us your knowledge of the game, lol
It’s just that it is typical for arguments on the internet to be mostly pointless and very drawn out with people who don’t care what you have to say. So winning the argument is not any type of achievement whatsoever.
There's nothing "drawn out" about the argument... There's only 1 skillset with a high volume of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, thereby causing low-assist teams, bad chemistry and perennial losers - only 1 skillset is inherently flawed like this, so the best players of this skillset will rank below the best of other skillsets.
It's the same skillset that a toddler has when you hand them a ball - they immediately start slapping and pounding the rock with their open palm - they're dominating the ball - yes, even a baby can do it.... And that's what Lebron is - a coddled baby with a trash resume given how much he's tried to manufacture it - he should literally have 10 titles by winning in 2011, 2014, 2017, 2021, and at least 2 more titles with AD so far.. Instead the bum needs more help every single year, regardless of cast...
MJ won 6 with just Pippen, so he would win every year with the all-star teams and franchise player teammates that lebron had in his career... We already know that lebron had a more help on both sides of the ball even before the "decision" by virtue of better-ranked defenses and more scoring help than the 1st three-peat Bulls... Long before the decision, Lebron received 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen, but couldn't develop them or win anything with them because his skillset imposes spot-up roles, thereby preventing development .
1-2 hours per day, tops... At this point, I've been doing this so long that it takes very little time to demolish the bad takes that you guys all have... Literally slice and dice up each incorrect phrase or sentence, like I did with All-in Mcloving above.
And this is the only site that I post on, along with ISH, but I don't post there much anymore... So it's really just this thread.. I don't post anywhere else, although I occasionally post some quick sh*t under a youtube video.. So you guys spend a lot more time engaging in this basketball stuff than I do, and you don't really know what i do with the rest of my day.
That key fundamental you lack is basketball IQ. We went over this. You don't have an intuitive feel for the game, make poor decisions with the ball and don't know what to do without the ball.
That's fair.
This is why your claim that your D1 experience, which is entirely due to your physical talent despite terrible basketball IQ and led to virtually no actual 5-on-5 basketball, gives you some sort of insight is pure nonsense. Totally random high school basketball players, who have absolutely no chance at playing college basketball, have way better basketball IQ than you do.
Their insight would be far more valuable as well. If you think about this, it's obvious - why would being physically gifte
One major thing that I should've mentioned earlier - I wasn't THAT physically-gifted.. So you're overrating me a lot there.. I had great touch around the rim and could score on pretty much anyone if I caught the ball under the rim... My jumphook was really something... But I didn't play much D1 because I wasn't groomed to pursue that type of scholarship and quit 2 different teams within a month or two of making the team.. Those are the reasons that I didn't get minutes - but even if I had stayed on the team and started to get minutes, i would've STILL been a Phil Jackson, Popovich, or Kerr type of roll player.
And sure, my on-court IQ lacked in some areas like quick, instinctive decisions, but you don't need to have on-court instincts to understand assisted rate - you just need to be a little smart and have insight or deductive ability - it also helps to have played with annoying ball-dominators that make you stand around - it's the combination of these experiences (playing and analyzing) that helps put it all together and connect the dots between the stats and the actuall on-court play.
Men's D1 basketball is only about 50% black, so even if literally none of them goes to graduate school due to racism, etc, that would cut the rate by less than half.
that's enough to make what i said relevant and true.
Also, you have this weird notion that going to graduate school is some amazing accomplishment.
it isn't
Agreed, but the combination of grad school and D1 hoops is still somewhat rare, and in this case it provided good insight into the lebron fraud that most mainstream fans aren't aware of.
I'm happy to use my little bit of analytical, philosophical and hoops knowledge to provide insight itt
If you won't stand to have a life, you'll fall for spending your entire day posting about Jordan being the GOAT on the internet.
it's not all day - I just less than an hour responding itt, and now i'm going to spend the rest of my day doing what fallguy really does, which will not be revealed itt so don't bother ask
Honey Badger don't care.
wow thread is way better talking about financial scams than debating how good horace grant was in 1993
should've just fwd to this part back in 2017
The toughest part was informing CEO's and pillars in their community that their business wasn't worth what they thought it was, or what they needed to continue with the marketing and sale - it's a tough conversation that requires a bird's eye view of various factors.
However, the few companies that were amazing enough to be marketed did benefit from our access and presentation to buyers.
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Bird's eye view of thread and basketball history in general
Unfolding events are continuing the historical trend of great ball movement allowing the capacity for great teams or dynasties... Specifically, there are no real teams in the West, so Tatum is headed for his 2nd title as an expert jumpshooting skillset that produces great ball movement, chemistry/teammate performance, and therefore great teams (either dominant title runs or "dynasties").... History shows that highly-assisted skillsets like expert jumpshooters and bigs produced all the "dynasties" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years (Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Duncan, Curry, Kobe/Shaq), while high-volume, low-assisted skillsets like Lebron, Luka, Harden, Westbrook, and SGA produced all the perennial losers that mostly lost regardless of cast.. Since the low-assisted skillsets produced far weaker chemistry and teams, the best low-assisted players/ball-dominators are behind the best high-assisted players (jumpshooters and bigs) in the all-time rankings (Jordan, Kobe, Curry, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar).
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Bird's eye view of thread and basketball history in general
Unfolding events are continuing the historical trend of great ball movement allowing the capacity for great teams or dynasties... Specifically, there are no real teams in the West, so Tatum is headed for his 2nd title as an expert jumpshooting skillset that produces great ball movement, chemistry/teammate performance, and therefore great teams (either dominant title runs or "dynasties").... History shows that highly-assisted skillsets l
Corrected thread cliffs, for those who understand basketball:
Basketball is a team sport, and teams that have great ball movement and a high assist rate are a function of personnel, coaching, and offensive scheme. There are 5 players per team on the court at once, therefore “personnel” means more than one player. Great dynasties that “mostly won” are a function of coaching and multiple players as anyone that has any experience with basketball will readily tell you.
LeBron James, having elite on-ball, off-ball, and playmaking skills can fit in any of these scenarios. His assisted fg%, despite playing point forward (traditionally a position with lower assisted fg%) is actually 38.4% for his career, while Kobe Bryant, for example, is about the same at 40.6% despite playing shooting guard (which should have a much higher rate than a point forward).
Furthermore LeBron, being as versatile as he is, also facilitates elite playmaking, allowing his teammates to play off-ball and have high assisted fg%, which by definition develops their off-ball skills.
This proves that had LeBron James had the same elite coaching and personnel (e.g. Phil Jackson and prime Shaq), he would have had equal or greater success than Kobe Bryant.
It is this elite playmaking, and the development of teammates’ off-ball skills, and therefore optimizing teammate assisted fg%, that may unintentionally be an argument that LeBron James is the true GOAT. It does make you think, if indeed assisted fg% is the key to it all, that you would want a true hybrid player that both has elite assisted fg% for himself (at point forward), and creates it for others. Logically, if true, that must make LeBron James the GOAT. An interesting conclusion for the assisted fg% argument, and therefore an interesting conclusion for the thread.
FINAL THREAD CLIFFS
Fallguy has used his analysis abilities to unintentially prove that LeBron James is the GOAT, concluding the thread once and for all.
New Thread Title!!
LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment Thread, thread solved #22999 post by Matt R.
Corrected thread cliffs, for those who understand basketball:
Basketball is a team sport, and teams that have great ball movement and a high assist rate are a function of personnel, coaching, and offensive scheme. There are 5 players per team on the court at once, therefore “personnel” means more than one player. Great dynasties that “mostly won” are a function of coaching and multiple players as anyone that has any experience with basketball will readily tell you.
LeBron James, having elite on-ba
A+
FG. Don't you see your issue that Matt and myself think MJ is GOAT, but we both think your logic is terrible?
The triangle doesn't have any low-assisted players (point guards), so Lebron's skillset wouldn't work.
It's simple math - Lebron's assisted rate is too high for the triangle (point guard level).
And Shaq wasn't a roll man or PNR big, so Shaq's in-out game and the triangle's "no point guards allowed" system are the worst fits possible for Lebron's game..
Lebron can fit in any of these scenarios due to elite on-ball, playmaking
and elite off-ball skills
Low assisted rate = bad off-ball player and Lebron is the only forward in history with an assisted rate below 40%, so he's the worst forward ever at off-ball skills.
Since every other team has forwards that offer great assist opportunity (high-assisted rates), Lebron's low-assisted rate reduces his teammates' assist opportunity and prevents a high-assist team or dynasty.
Lebron's assisted rate, despite playing point forward (traditionally a position with lower assisted fg%)
is actually 38.4% for his career
^^^ that's the lowest-ever among frontcourt players or SG's, which proves that Lebron is just a point guard.
It's certainly the lowest assisted rate BY FAR for a frontcourt player, so Lebron's inability to be a great assist target like other forwards reduces his teammates' assists and prevents a high-assist team or dynasty.
while Kobe Bryant, for example, is about the same at 42% despite playing shooting guard (which should have a much higher rate than a point forward).
^^^ 42% is a standard frequency for shooting guards, so Kobe didn't reduce his teammates' assist opportunity like Lebron does with his low frequency for his position.
Only point guards have assisted rates below 40%, which makes Lebron a point guard... He just happens to start in the frontcourt, which turns a highly-assisted position into a low-assisted one - this lowers the assists of teammates and prevents a high-assist team.
Truly versatile players with great on-ball and off-ball skill have closer to a 50% assisted rate like Jordan or Curry, while the only skillset that has assisted rates of 20-40% are point guard skillsets (Lebron. SGA, Lillard, Luka, etc)...
The entire history of high-scoring point guard skillsets (Lebron, Westbrook, Harden, Luka, SGA) shows that coaches don't run ball movement offenses and high assist teams with these guys.... They can't due to the high volume of unassisted buckets of this skillset that leaves teammates standing around - it's the only skillset with this uncoachable nature.
Again, it's pure math because Lebron's lower assisted rate than 4 positions (frontcourt player and SG's) is proof of his skill restriction to point guard (ball-dominance).
if assisted rate is the key to it all, then you want a hybrid player that both has elite assisted rate for himself (at point forward) and creates it for others
Lebron doesn't have elite assisted rate because his assisted rate the lowest of any frontcourt player or SG, and this abnormally-bad skill as an assist target prevents high-assist teams.
Meanwhile, Lebron isn't "creating" healthy assisted rates for teammates because his teammates were already versatile players with healthy assisted rates, so the unnecessary increase of their assisted rates reduced them to one-dimensional spot-up shooters.. Dynasties require all players to be assisting each other, so players that have low assisted rates and impose spot-up roles upon otherwise versatile teammates aren't allowed... You either run bron-ball, or you MOVE the ball and give yourself a chance to develop dynasty chemistry.
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FG. Don't you see your issue that Matt and myself think MJ is GOAT, but we both think your logic is terrible?
You have no logic for why MJ is the goat and have no idea how he plays.. If I asked you why MJ is goat, you would give me some BS, canned answer..
go ahead.. why is MJ goat... (skip bayless babble incoming...)
And I'm not presenting logic - I'm informing you of the historical record that Lebron lowers all teammates' assists due to his own bad skills as an assist target - this prevents a high assist team and great chemistry that better assist targets allow, such as the leaders of every dynasty, aka Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Duncan, Curry, and Kobe/Shaq.. Dynasties don't have any low-assisted players like Lebron, Luka, Harden, etc.
The 1st options of dynasties are all highly-assisted, while Lebron is a dumb low-assisted player, just like a baby is - literally - a baby will start slapping and dominating the ball if you hand them the ball - that's the extent of Lebron's simpleton and predictable skillset, which results in the most underachievement of favored rosters ever (most losses with preseason favorite or finals teams).... that's the bird's eye view
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Thread Cliffs
The highly-assisted skillsets of jumpshooters and bigs produced high-assist teams and all the "dynasties" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years (Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Duncan, Curry, Shaq), while low-assisted skillsets like Lebron, Luka, Harden, Westbrook, and SGA produced low-assist teams and perennial losers with every cast.
Since highly-assisted skillsets like jumpshooters and bigs produced far better chemistry and teams, the best of these skillsets rank ahead of the best ball-dominators (low-assisted skillsets)..... aka the best jumpshooters are ahead of the best centers, who are ahead of the best ball-dominators, which means the rankings are Jordan, Kobe, Curry, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar.
Essentially, low-assisted players lack skill at being assist targets, which makes them inferior players in a vacuum than higher-assisted players that facilitate better ball movement, chemistry, teams, and even dynasties... Regardless of any counterarguments, there's no escaping Lebron's low-assisted skillset, which eliminates him from having great chemistry or teams, and therefore goat eligibility.
low-assisted rate = bad at high scoring levels (never a great team)
medium assisted rate = good/versatile
high or increasing assisted rate = spot-up role, or reduction to spot-up role
Corrected thread cliffs, for those who understand basketball:
Basketball is a team sport, and teams that have great ball movement and a high assist rate are a function of personnel, coaching, and offensive scheme. There are 5 players per team on the court at once, therefore “personnel” means more than one player. Great dynasties that “mostly won” are a function of coaching and multiple players as anyone that has any experience with basketball will readily tell you.
LeBron J
Corrected response for those who understand basketball
The triangle doesn't have any low-assisted players (point guards), so Lebron's skillset wouldn't work.. It's simple math because Lebron's assisted rate is too low for the triangle (point guard level).. Furthermore, Shaq wasn't a roll man or PNR big, so Shaq's in-out game and the triangle's "no point guards allowed" system are the worst fits for Lebron's style.. The triangle also requires a bunch of mid-range and fundamentally-sound operation from the elbow without dribbling and turnaround jumpers, which Lebron cannot do in large volume to carry bums like Pippen - none of this is Lebron's wheelhouse and he's always needed a "closer", unlike MJ or Kobe's superior scoring diversity and expert jumpshooting skill.
Furthermore, Lebron's 38.4% assisted rate is the lowest-ever for frontcourt players, and among the lowest-ever compared to SG's, which proves that he's mostly a point guard... Lebron's massive deficit as an assist target compared to other forwards reduces his teammates' assists and prevents a high-assist team or dynasty... Lebron's assisted rate was in the 30's for his entire career and barely reached 41 once, while Kobe's was in the 40's for his entire career and nearly reached 50 - this is normal for shooting guards and therefore didn't reduce teammates' assist opportunity like Lebron did.
Truly versatile players with great on-ball and off-ball skill have 50% assisted rate like Jordan or Curry, while the only skillset that has assisted rates of 20-40% are point guard skillsets.. Furthermore, Luka, SGA or Lebron are high-scorers at these low-assisted levels, which means a high volume of unassisted buckets that prevents a high-assist team - coaches cannot run a high-assist offense with a high volume of unassisted buckets from 1 player.. This uncoachable affliction only belongs to the high-scoring point guard skillsets of Luka, Lebron, SGA, Harden, etc.. And again, Lebron's assisted rate ranks below 4 positions on a percentile graph, which is proof of his skill restriction to point guard (ball-dominance).
Finally, Lebron isn't "creating" healthy assisted rates for teammates because his teammates were already versatile players with healthy assisted rates, so the unnecessary increase of their assisted rates reduced them to one-dimensional spot-up shooters with lower production entirely... Dynasties require all players to be assisting each other, so the imposition of spot-up roles by 1 player will prevent a dynasty from coming to fruition.. Every dynasty in history was led by highly-assisted skillsets like jumpshooters or bigs because these skillsets develop the best ball movement and teams.. Otoh, the low-assisted skillsets like Lebron, Luka and Harden have a bunch of unassisted buckets that prevent great ball movement or teams, so they produce perennial losers with every cast instead.. In addition to never producing a great team, Lebron's skillset and brand of ball underachieved favored rosters more than anyone in history by virtue of the most losses ever with the preseason favorite and Finals teams.. Luka and other high-scoring ball-dominators will follow this trend.
To be clear, after I stated that high volumes of unassisted buckets or "ball-dominance" won less and was an inferior skillset, the counter was that Lebron could become a higher-assisted player and shooting guard like Kobe or MJ, as required to win with the triangle???.. That's like saying Shaq could play like Curry and have an offense like the Warriors if he wanted... If Lebron could use the triangle to win 11 titles, then he would've used it to beat the 09' Magic, 10' Celtics or Spurs like Kobe did, or he would've used it to beat the Mavs... So you guys are just lying by claiming that things could happen that already didn't happen and haven't happened for 22 years - Lebron has never used a high ball movement system like the teams that beat him.
The triangle doesn't use low-assisted skillsets like lebron's, so coaches wouldn't install the triangle with a contrary skillset that is doomed cost them their job... Ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron can't change to be off-guards like Rip, Kobe or Klay, just like AD can't become Kobe or MJ either.. This is an absurd conversation - the counter to finding out that your favorite player has an inferior skillset isn't to say that he could simply morph into another skillset - he would've already done that by using the triangle or ball movement systems to win many times by now, while also routinely changing his game to fit with other ball-handlers like Westbrook, Hughes, Ingram, IT, and Rose, or forwards like Bosh, Love, and Jamison.. There are far too many bad fits and 22 years of needy teams to say that lebron does anything other than what the stats show him doing, which is dominating the ball in an abnormal fashion to produce the worst chemistry and the most underachievement of favored rosters in history..
Finally, Lebron isn't "creating" healthy assisted rates for teammates because his teammates were already versatile players with healthy assisted rates, so the unnecessary increase of their assisted rates kills versatility and reduces them to one-dimensional spot-up shooters - they're reduced to a lower level of production entirely, including lower assists, which prevents a high-assist team... It's never good to reduce everyone's assists, but that's what the high-scoring point guard skillset does, and that's why it's inferior... Dynasties require all players to be assisting each other, so the imposition of spot-up roles by 1 player will prevent a dynasty from coming to fruition, and history follows this pattern... Every dynasty in history was led by highly-assisted skillsets like jumpshooters or bigs because these skillsets develop the best ball movement and teams.. Otoh, the low-assisted skillsets like Lebron, Luka and Harden have a bunch of unassisted buckets that prevent great chemistry or teams, so they produce perennial losers with every cast instead.. In addition to never producing a great team, Lebron's brand of ball underachieved favored rosters more than anyone in history by virtue of the most losses ever with the preseason favorites and Finals teams.. Luka and other high-scoring ball-dominators will follow this trend..
Essentially, if we went back in time and STRIPPED duncan's highly-assisted frontcourt skills and replaced them with low-assisted ball-dominant skills that turned Parker and Ginobili into non-playmaking spot-up shooters, Popovich would have exactly zero rings - Lebron has proven that "big man ball-dominance" is the worst brand of ball in history that underachieves favored rosters the most.. It's even worse than regular high-scoring point guard play like Lillard because the big man's ball-dominance and low-assisted rate is abnormal for his position, so teammates have less opportunity to assist alongside him than normal bigs.. It's literally the worst chemistry in history that produces the lowest team ceilings/Finals records in history, regardless of cast.
FG - Thread is finished mate. You lost. Move on to something else.
