LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
This is where you are going to argue that this was a “one off and does not count”, but then you’ve also argued the Spurs having low assist totals yet winning rings doesn’t count. And somehow since they have had seasons where they don’t win rings but had high assist totals makes them have “capability” for high assists. Just like Harden’s Rockets. So I’ll encourage you now, ahead of time, to look up what the word “capability” means.
Already predicted your exact response and already answered.
the math proved you wrong - low-assisted 1st options provide low average assist ranking (18th), while high-assisted players provide high average assist ranking (10th), so it shouldn't be a surprise that the capability to provide this higher ranking is required best basketball (dynasties).
Ultimately, the fact that low-assisted players never produced the best basketball (dynasties) is why their inferior to the best high-assisted players that did.
So FG, you haven' let us know your thoughts on why the two favourites for this years title (and the two current teams with the highest likelihood of becoming the next dynasty) both have high unassisted leading scorers.
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Stats at 22 years old vs Spurs
05' AMARE........... 37 on 55%.... 3.4 turnovers per game
01' KOBE.............. 33 on 51%.... 2.8 turnovers per game
07' LEBRON......... 22 on 35%.... 5.8 turnovers per game
So Lebron was never the best young player because he played worse than anyone ever at a young player (35% and 6 TO), while Kobe and Amare dominated the same team, or MJ was dominated the 86' Celtics and 20-year old Magic won FMVP.
There's endless confirmed proof that Lebron is a fraud.
When people can predict your exact response and refute it before you even write it, it’s time to give up.
Next post: long list of random unrelated and irrelevant statistics from bballref posted in varying colors to make it look fancy.
So FG, you haven' let us know your thoughts on why the two favourites for this years title (and the two current teams with the highest likelihood of becoming the next dynasty) both have high unassisted leading scorers.
Talk to me when unassisted leading scorers produce the best basketball (dynasties).
Until then, I'm forced to think that the skillsets of assisted leading scorers (jumpshooters and bigs) are superior by virtue of producing all the best basketball in history (all the dynasties)..
Apparently, every dynasty is associated with a reputation for historic ball movement, which is reflected statistically in various seasons of top assist rankings and higher average ranking over the long-term - only highly-assisted players produce these higher average rankings that dynasties require, along with a reputation for historic ball movement... But carry on in an unenlightened state if you prefer.
Talk to me when UNASSISTED leading scorers produce the best basketball (dynasties).
Until then, I'm forced to think that the skillsets of ASSISTED leading scorers (jumpshooters and bigs) are superior by virtue of producing all the best basketball in history (all the dynasties)..
Apparently, every dynasty is associated with a reputation for historic ball movement, which is reflected statistically in various seasons of top assist rankings and higher average ranking over the long-term - only highly-
^^^ predicted, along with the exact gif
Here are a bunch of teams with multiple elite players and elite coaching. And the sky is blue. Therefore as you can see the capability of the sky being blue is the requirement for winning basketball dynasties. Also here are some gifs of me dribbling behind my back and scoring on 14 year olds.
There fallguy. I wrote your next 10 posts for you and you don’t have to post anymore.
So FG, you haven' let us know your thoughts on why the two favourites for this years title (and the two current teams with the highest likelihood of becoming the next dynasty) both have high unassisted leading scorers.
That's quite common
Nash in 06', or Lebron in 09', 10', 11', or CP3 many years... Harden too.... Even Lebron in 23'... All of them developed favorites in the regular season that got everyone's hopes up.
But all of them lost, and most lost as the favorite in some regard, and mostly because their ball-dominant, predictable brand has always had a lower ceiling and underachieved expectation once "adjustment-basketball" began (playoffs).
This has always been the case with high-scoring, ball-dominators because Luka, Westbrook, Lebron, Harden, CP3, SGA, Ant and others are known for perennial losing in the playoffs and frustrating underachievement after getting everyone's hopes up in the JV season (regular season).
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CORRECTED LINKS
TEAM ASSIST RANKINGS FOR ALL PLAYERS WITH HIGH VOLUME OF UNASSISTED BUCKETS (OVER 25 PPG AND LESS THAN 40% ASSISTED RATE), SINCE 1997:
2002 Kobe Bryant................ 9th in team assists
2003 Tracy McGrady............ 21st in team assists
2005 Tracy McGrady............ 16th in team assists
2006 Dwayne Wade............. 17th in team assists
2007 Dwayne Wade............. 18th in team assists
2008 Dwayne Wade............. 24th in team assists
2009 Dwayne Wade............. 18th in team assists
2010 Dwayne Wade............. 28th in team assists
2011 Dwayne Wade............. 26th in team assists
2005 Gilbert Arenas............. 28th in team assists
2006 Gilbert Arenas............. 25th in team assists
2007 Gilbert Arenas............. 23rd in team assists
2005 Kobe Bryant................ 22nd in team assists
2009 Kobe Bryant................ 2nd in team assists
2004 Allen Iverson............... 23rd in team assists
2005 Allen Iverson............... 21st in team assists
2006 Allen Iverson............... 18th in team assists
2007 Allen Iverson............... 21st in team assists
2008 Allen Iverson............... 3rd in team assists
2000 Grant Hill..................... 23rd in team assists
2010 Monta Ellis.................. 5th in team assists
2011 Derrick Rose................ 9th in team assists
2013 Carmelo....................... 30th in team assists
2014 Carmelo....................... 28th in team assists
2015 Westbrook................... 25th in team assists
2017 Westbrook................... 25th in team assists
2018 Westbrook................... 28th in team assists
2020 Westbrook................... 29th in team assists
2013 Harden......................... 6th in team assists
2014 Harden......................... 18th in team assists
2015 Harden.......................... 9th in team assists
2016 Harden.......................... 16th in team assists
2017 Harden.......................... 3rd in team assists
2018 Harden.......................... 26th in team assists
2019 Harden.......................... 28th in team assists
2020 Harden.......................... 29th in team assists
2016 Lillard............................ 21st in team assists
2017 Lillard............................ 23rd in team assists
2018 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2019 Lillard............................ 25th in team assists
2020 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2021 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2023 Lillard............................ 22nd in team assists
2017 Isiaih Thomas.............. 4th in team assists
2017 Demar Derozan........... 30th in team assists
2019 Kemba Walker.............. 24th in team assists
2020 Luka Doncic.................. 14th in team assists
2021 Luka Doncic.................. 26th in team assists
2022 Luka Doncic.................. 25th in team assists
2023 Luka Doncic.................. 28th in team assists
2024 Luka Doncic.................. 19th in team assists
2025 Luka Doncic.................. 18th in team assists
2020 Trae Young................... 17th in team assists
2021 Trae Young................... 19th in team assists
2022 Trae Young................... 15th in team assists
2023 Trae Young................... 18th in team assists
2024 Trae Young................... 16th in team assists
2017 Kyrie Irving................... 13th in team assists
2020 Kyrie Irving................... 15th in team assists
2021 Kyrie Irving................... 7th in team assists
2022 Kyrie Irving................... 10th in team assists
2023 Kyrie Irving................... 28th in team assists
2024 Kyrie Irving................... 19th in team assists
2021 Donovan Mitchell........ 23rd in team assists
2022 Donovan Mitchell........ 27th in team assists
2023 Donovan Mitchell........ 19th in team assists
2024 Donovan Mitchell........ 8th in team assists
2021 D'Aaron Fox.................. 12th in team assists
2023 D'Aaron Fox...................3rd in team assists
2024 D'Aaron Fox.................. 7th in team assists
2025 D'Aaron Fox.................. 15th in team assists
2022 Ja Morant...................... 6th in team assists
2023 Ja Morant...................... 9th in team assists
2024 Ja Morant...................... 27th in team assists
2023 Shai-Gilgeous............... 21st in team assists
2024 Shai-Gilgeous............... 11th in team assists
2025 Shai-Gilgeous............... 14th in team assists
2024 Jalen Brunson.............. 29th in team assists
2025 Jalen Brunson.............. 9th in team assists*
2024 Anthony Edwards........ 15th in team assists
2006 Lebron.......................... 24th in team assists
2007 Lebron.......................... 15th in team assists
2008 Lebron.......................... 25th in team assists
2009 Lebron.......................... 20th in team assists
2010 Lebron.......................... 6th in team assists
2011 Lebron.......................... 26th in team assists
2012 Lebron.......................... 21st in team assists
2015 Lebron.......................... 10th in team assists
2016 Lebron.......................... 13th in team assists
2017 Lebron.......................... 13th in team assists
2018 Lebron.......................... 12th in team assists
2019 Lebron.......................... 11th in team assists
2020 Lebron.......................... 10th in team assists
2021 Lebron.......................... 15th in team assists
2022 Lebron.......................... 17th in team assists
^^^^ 18.3 is the average team assist ranking for "ball-dominators", which are players with high volume of unassisted buckets (25+ ppg and less than 40% assisted rate).
TEAM ASSIST RANKINGS FOR EVERY 25 PPG SCORER WITH 50% OR MORE ASSISTED RATE, SINCE 1997:
1997 Jordan...................... 2nd in team assists
1997 Mitch Richmond..... 14th in team assists
1997 Glen Rice.................. 4th in team assists
1997 Shaq......................... 11th in team assists
1997 Malone..................... 1st in team assists
1998 Jordan....................... 7th in team assists
1998 Shaq......................... 4th in team assists
1998 Malone..................... 2nd in team assists
1999 Shaq.......................... 7th in team assists
2000 Shaq.......................... 10th in team assists
2000 Vince Carter.............. 6th in team assists
2000 Allen Iverson............ 17th in team assists
2000 Malone...................... 3rd in team assists
2001 Shaq.......................... 9th in team assists
2001 Jerry Stackhouse...... 24th in team assists
2001 Vince Carter.............. 3rd in team assists
2001 Webber...................... 10th in team assists
2001 Pierce........................ 19th in team assists
2002 Shaq.......................... 9th in team assists
2002 Duncan..................... 27th in team assists
2002 Pierce........................ 20th in team assists
2003 Shaq......................... 5th in team assists
2003 Dirk........................... 9th in team assists
2005 Stoudamire.............. 3rd in team assists
2005 Dirk........................... 26th in team assists
2006 Dirk........................... 29th in team assists
2006 Ray Allen.................. 15th in team assists
2006 Michael Redd........... 8th in team assists
2006 Carmelo.................... 3rd in team assists
2007 Pierce........................ 25th in team assists
2007 Carmelo................... 5th in team assists
2007 Michael Redd........... 12th in team assists
2007 Yao Ming................... 16th in team assists
2007 Vince Carter.............. 3rd in team assists
2008 Carmelo................... 3rd in team assists
2008 Stoudamire............... 1st in team assists
2009 Durant...................... 20th in team assists
2009 Danny Granger....... . 9th in team assists
2009 Dirk............................ 8th in team assists
2010 Dirk............................ 3rd in team assists
2010 Monta Ellis................ 5th in team assists
2010 Durant....................... 23rd in team assists
2011 Stoudamire............... 15th in team assists
2011 Durant....................... 24th in team assists
2012 Kevin Love................. 24th in team assists
2013 Durant....................... 21st in team assists
2014 Kevin Love................. 5th in team assists
2015 Durant........................ 25th in team assists
2016 Durant........................ 10th in team assists
2016 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2016 Cousins....................... 4th in team assists
2017 Cousins....................... 16th in team assists
2017 AD................................ 12th in team assists
2017 Durant......................... 1st in team assists
2017 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2017 Karl Anthony.............. 9th in team assists
2018 Cousins....................... 3rd in team assists
2018 AD................................ 3rd in team assists
2018 Durant........................ 1st in team assists
2018 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2019 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2019 AD................................ 3rd in team assists
2019 Embiid......................... 4th in team assists
2019 Bradley Beal............... 6th in team assists
2020 AD................................ 10th in team assists
2020 Karl-Anthony.............. 20th in team assists
2021 Jokic............................. 5th in team assists
2021 Durant......................... 7th in team assists
2021 Curry............................ 1st in team assists
2021 Embiid......................... 22nd in team assists
2021 Zion............................. 10th in team assists
2022 Jokic............................. 3rd in team assists
2022 Durant......................... 10th in team assists
2022 Curry............................ 5th in team assists
2022 Embiid......................... 21st in team assists
2023 Julius Randle............... 28th in team assists
2023 Durant......................... 13th in team assists
2023 Curry............................ 1st in team assists
2023 Embiid......................... 16th in team assists
2023 Zion............................. 11th in team assists
2023 Jaylen Brown............. 7th in team assists
2023 Markkenan................ 10th in team assists
2023 AD................................ 15th in team assists
2024 Jokic............................. 3rd in team assists
2024 Durant......................... 12th in team assists
2024 Curry............................ 4th in team assists
2024 Embiid......................... 24th in team assists
10.2 average for high-scorers that have high assisted rates, and 18.3 average for high-scorers with low-assisted rates.
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10.2 average ranking in team assists for all high-scorers with high assisted rates since 1997, and 18.3 for high-scorers with low-assisted rates.
see source-linked data in post above
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Here are a bunch of teams with multiple elite players and elite coaching. And the sky is blue. Therefore as you can see the capability of the sky being blue is the requirement for winning basketball dynasties.
The 1st options on dynasties aren't just "elite players", as you stated above, smh - they're all highly-assisted players.... All the 1st options on dynasties are highly-assisted, which produces higher-assist rankings of 10th compared to 18th for all lower-assisted players since 1997 (see linked stats in previous post above)...
So it's a mathematical fact that highly-assisted 1st options produce higher-assist teams, which is the catalyst for the higher-assist nature of all dynasties and their historic ball movement..
Using a single low-assist title in 2003 by the goat ball movement team doesn't even begin to refute the higher-assist nature of dynasties.. It actually enhances the Spurs' profile since they played down in the regular season during that era and then out-assisted all opponents soundly in each playoff series.
Regardless, the point is that all dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options, who produce higher-assist teams (see stats above).. Meanwhile, low-assisted 1st options have many unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles, which reduces their assists and prevents high-assist teams.. This weaker brand actually leads to the greatest underachievement of favored rosters, such as the most losses ever with preseason favorites or Finals teams.. Meanwhile, the catalyst in all of Lebron's playoff losses for the last 10 years is deficits in team assists.
Before we continue, can you open the above link, reply by typing out the definition, and acknowledge if you understand it or not?
Before we continue, can you open the above link, reply by typing out the definition, and acknowledge if you understand it or not?
There is an “elementary” tab on that web site if you need the definition simplified.
Are you finding it difficult to reply in an honest fashion because you are so used to lying and shifting the goal posts?
This post is not for fallguy. Because fallguy is irrelevant since he cannot be honest. But, as an exercise, I looked up the team assist rankings for the Spurs during their "mostly winning dynasty" window of 5 years from 2003-07, and James Harden's Rockets during their first 5 years of his "ball dominance, impossible to have high team assists" era.
Team assist rankings for the 2003-07 San Antonio Spurs. The high assist capability dynasty with a highly assisted first option. The numbers are ordered chronologically by year.
22
19
13
12
11
average team assist ranking = 15.4. Below the league average.
Team assist rankings for the 2014-18 Houston Rockets. The ball dominant James Harden led team. With the low assisted rate first option, such that it's impossible for them to have high team assists. The numbers are again ordered chronologically by year.
5
18
9
16
3
average team assist ranking = 10.2. Above the league average.
That's right, the first 5 year window of the ball-dominant James Harden led Houston Rockets era had a significantly higher team assist ranking than the "mostly winning" dynastic San Antonio Spurs. And the "impossible to have high assist ranking" ball dominant James Harden led Houston Rockets had 3 top 10 team assist rankings. The Spurs had precisely zero.
(fallguy, this part is for you)
fallguy, can you write out the definition of the word "capability" for us, and let us know if you understand it? We can then proceed with your walls of bullshit. But you need to answer if you understand simple definitions first.
fallguy’s next post:
fallguy in a panic as he now realizes one of his “mostly winning” dynasties of 3 championships in 5 years actually has a below league average team assist ranking during that window. One of only three teams that has qualified for his own definition of “mostly winning dynasty” since assisted fg% has been recorded.
I wonder if players, roster construction, coaching, and strategy matters more to make a team a dynasty than assisted fg%, the stat that has a negative correlation with wins?
Will fallguy admit this? Or will he obfuscate and misdirect because a decade plus of his life’s work is now a total joke? Who are we kidding. We know exactly what will happen. Zombie fallguy can’t admit when he is wrong, but he sure can dance like a circus monkey. So dance fallguy, dance.
Team assist ranks with Duncan as 1st option (98-11')
12
6
16
16
27
22
19
14
10
11
21
12
7
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16.1 average team assist ranking
Team assist ranks with Harden as 1st option (13-20')
6
18
9
16
3
26
28
29
_______
average team assist ranking = 16.8
Duncan and Harden both averaged 16th in team assists as 1st option, but why would this one-off get any credence, while the entire history that I posted earlier get ignored?
The entire history of the assisted rate statistic shows that low-assisted skillsets like Harden, Luka and Lebron produce low-assist teams and have never been the 1st option on a dynasty... Instead, the 1st options on dynasties are always highly-assisted skillsets like big or jumpshooters, who produce high-assist teams as required by dynasties.
Despite the Spurs exception, all dynasties are high-assist teams, so they require the highly-assisted skillsets that produce high-assist teams, i.e. no ball-dominators allowed as 1st option... Even the Spurs still required a 1st option with a highly-assisted skillset that otherwise normally produces high-assist teams, and certainly offered that option when needed.
I wonder if players, roster construction, coaching, and strategy matters more to make a team a dynasty than assisted fg%, the stat that has a negative correlation with wins?
As soon as you say "roster construction", I win because you're conceding that skillsets matter... History shows that highly-assisted skillsets are always required to be the 1st option on a dynasty, since highly-assisted 1st options produce good team assists, as required by every dynasty except the greatest ball movement team ever (the Spurs).
Anything else?... Because the numbers are on my side - low-assisted skillsets produce low-assist teams, so they've never been the 1st option on a dynasty, which requires the capability for higher assists that only highly-assisted skillsets provide.
And you can pretend that Russell and Kareem weren't highly-assisted, but if you're resting your case on that, then I win because everyone knows they were highly-assisted just like every frontcourt player since 1997 not named Lebron... So again, highly-assisted skillsets were required to be the 1st option on any of the 5 dynasties in history, since highly-assisted 1st options produce the higher-assist teams required by dynasties, outside of the greatest ball movement team ever (the Spurs).
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The current state of Lebron's career:
Enjoy.... ... 
Jaren Jackson Jr. is exactly what I'm talking about with Pippen because Jackson Jr. is a generous ceiling for Pippen if he was losing on the Wizards or Grizzlies, but Jackson Jr. will probably never make All-NBA...
Many sidekicks that won titles only made All-NBA after winning titles like Pippen, Dumars, Parker, Ginobili, Pau, and Klay, otherwise they would've been like Jackson Jr. and not have any All-NBA.
Since Pippen benefitted from this kind of winning spotlight more than anyone else, he's the most overrated player ever.. He never played above a Larry Nance level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.
