GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
.
Recent Thread Cliffs
Since it's kindergarten basketball knowledge that Garnett-like players are highly-assisted, and since every frontcourt player since 1997 was highly-assisted (except Lebron), we can conclude that Bill Russell and Kareem were highly-assisted players.. This shouldn't be remotely debatable and it's ridiculous to state the obvious and basics.
Accordingly, 6 of 6 dynasties in history required highly-assisted 1st options, and the statistical impact of having a highly-assisted 1st option is that they produce higher-assist teams, as required by 5 of 6 of the dynasties.
In contrast to the highly assisted 1st options required for every dynasty, low-assisted 1st options produce low assist teams and have never been the 1st option on a dynasty.. Since low-assisted 1st options can't produce the best basketball (dynasties), they're inferior to the best highly-assisted players that led every dynasty... i.e. Lebron, Luka, Harden < Curry, Jordan, Shaq.
That's quite commonNash in 06', or Lebron in 09', 10', 11', or CP3 many years... Harden too.... Even Lebron in 23'... All of them developed favorites in the regular season that got everyone's hopes up.But all of them lost, and most lost as the favorite in some regard, and mostly because their ball-dominant, predictable brand has always had a lower ceiling and underachieved expe
Good to see you have Luka, SGA and Ant who have all had more team success than Jordan at the same age.
Yeah, as Matt has said no stats for ass% before mid 90s.
For instance there's no reason to believe Magic was highly assisted.
There's another one out the window.
.
Highly-assisted 1st options like MJ and Curry are associated with:
* producing dynasties (6 of 6 dynasties had highly-assisted 1st options)
* producing historic ball movement and high team assists (10th on average)
* great fits & chemistry
* great teammate development
* being a great assist target that increases everyone's assists, thus allowing a high-assist team
* less underachievement of expectation
Low-assisted 1st options like Luka and Lebron are associated with:
* never producing the best basketball (dynasties)
* producing weak ball movement and low-assist teams (18th on average)
* bad fits and chemistry
* zero teammate development (imposing spot-up roles on everyone)
* being a bad assist target that imposes spot-up roles and reduces everyone's assists, thus preventing a high-assist team
* bad chemistry that causes underachievement of expectation (the most losses with preseason favorites or Finals teams
Statistical Summary
6 of 6 dynasties required a highly-assisted 1st option, who produce high-assist teams required by 5 of 6 dynasties, and have long records of great chemistry, teammate development and little or no underachievement of expectation.
Otoh, low-assisted 1st options never produced the best basketball (dynasties), specifically because they produce low-assist teams that dynasties don't normally have and weak ball movement that dynasties NEVER have.. They also impose spot-up roles that prevent teammate development, elite chemistry, elite strategy (ball movement), while also reducing teammates' assists, thus preventing high assist teams.
In short, the best highly-assisted players are superior to the best low-assisted players by virtue of producing the best basketball (dynasties), great chemistry, teammate development and less underachievement of expectation, while low-assisted 1st options are the opposite of all these things - they never produced the best basketball (dynasty) and produced bad chemistry, zero teammate development and imposed spot-up roles that lower everyone's assists and prevent a high-assist team.
.
.
Ant vs MJ at 23 years old
'......
'''...
23-year old Jordan scored 37 of 104 points for the Bulls (35.6%), compared to 26 of 110 for Ant (23.6%). while getting robbed of both MVP and DPOY by undeserving Lakers (Magic and Cooper were nowhere near Jordan in 87' and it's been common knowledge that he was robbed of both awards that year.)
KAT vs Pippen
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html]KAT Career[/url]................ 23.0... 11.0... 3.2... 23.9 PER... 0.187 WS/48... 4.5 BPM... 62.4 TS (above league average)
[url=https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game_stats]91-93' Pippen[/url]............ 19.1..... 7.5... 6.5... 20.4 PER... 0.168 WS/48... 5.3 BPM... 54.1 TS (below league average)
Good to see you have Luka, SGA and Ant who have all had more team success than Jordan at the same age.
Jordan won 6 titles with a worse cast than Ant had last year or this year, and Ant is a complete joke at the same age (see above).
Ditto for Luka and SGA - they're all jokes compared to MJ by virtue of being perennial losers with all-star teammates, while MJ was unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star...
And Pippen was a lower-producing all-star than Luka and Ant had - Pippen is a lower producer than KAT and Kyrie based on PPG, APG, TS, PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP - basically everything.
So you're wrong on every level and fell for a fraud called today's NBA.. you SHOULD feel embarrassed about it because you literally know nothing about basketball - you think Russell and Kareem were NOT highly-assisted... That feeling you have right now is the feeling of being defeated in this argument in every way imaginable.
.
Magic wasn't the 1st option for the Lakers and the argument only applies to 1st options - every dynasty has a highly-assisted 1st options - that's the argument, and Kareem was the 1st option for the Lakers...
The argument also applies to high-scoring 1st options, since they're the ones with high volume of assisted or unassisted buckets that prevents great ball movement or high-assist teams.
You should be aware that the only skillset with low-assisted rates are ball-dominators like Lillard or Lebron (point guard style players), so it's pretty dumb to think that Russell and Kareem played like ball-dominators when we know they were traditional, highly-assisted bigs like Garnett, KAT or literally any big that has ever played..
So we know for a fact that Russell and Kareem were highly-assisted just like we know the sky is blue - the stats confirm this obvious eye test because every frontcourt player has been highly-assisted since the stat was introduced in 97' - the only exceptions are Lebron and Grant Hill, and it's clear that they have the ball-dominant skillset that is always low-assisted.. Again, the ONLY low-assisted skillset is ball-domination (point guard style), so it's pretty dumb to think that Garnett-style players like Russell and Kareem were low-assisted ball-dominators like Luka or Lebron - it's the height of stupidity (and denial).
Since Russell and Kareem were obviously highly-assisted, we know that every dynasty (6 of 6) had highly-assisted 1st options, who produce high-assist teams, as required for 5 of the 6 dynasties.. Otoh, low-assisted players were never the 1st option on a dynasty, and their high volume of unassisted buckets prevents high-assist teams that are typically associated with dynasties, or the historic ball movement that is always associated with dynasties.
That’s a great argument fallguy. Except anyone that knows anything about basketball could tell you that Bill Russell was never the first option for the Boston Celtics, and Kareem was not the first option for the Lakers in ‘87 nor ‘88, their last two championships in their “mostly winning” 5 year dynasty window.
The rest of your posts are wrong too for obvious reasons that we’ve been over a few dozen times already.
Can you move the goalposts a little further next time to spice the thread up a little bit? Getting bored over here.
Good to see you have Luka, SGA and Ant who have all had more team success than Jordan at the same age.
Sadly true .
Can you imagine what Jordan could of done with a decent team to begin with …
Thanks.
It was tough because I wanted to go 6 for 6 and be like Mike, but I had to concede the Spurs exception.... This means that 5 of 6 will have to do (5 of 6 dynasties had high-assist teams)... Regardless, I went 6 for 6 on the initial point that every dynasty required a highly-assisted 1st option (who produce higher-assist teams).
and Kareem was not the first option for the Lakers in ‘87 nor ‘88, their last two championships in their “mostly winning” 5 year dynasty window.
Kareem was the leading scorer from 80' to 86', and then jumpshooter Byron Scott was the leading scorer in 88', and then Worthy from 89' onwards.
Accordingly, Magic only led 1 of 11 regular seasons (87'), and then Worthy led in the playoffs every year (87-91') after Kareem stepped down as 1st option.
Btw, in order for you guys to refute what I'm saying, you've argued that Kareem wasn't highly-assisted (do you realize how dumb that is?) and you've also had to argue that ball movement and team assists don't matter...... And now you're saying the all-time leading scorer before Lebron wasn't the 1st option... smh... lol.. I'm killing you guys.
The rest of your posts are wrong too for obvious reasons that we’ve been over a few dozen times already.
Once I corrected the Spurs exception, everything fell into place, and I thank you for helping me correct the historical record on that - the historical record now reads:
"6 of 6 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options, who produce higher-assist teams, as required by 5 of 6 dynasties.. Otoh, low-assisted players produce low assist teams and have never been the 1st option on a dynasty.. Since they've never produced the best basketball (dynasties), they're inferior to the best players from highly-assisted skillsets that have."
Except anyone that knows anything about basketball could tell you that Bill Russell was never the first option for the Boston Celtics
Great point.. However, the Celtics were still led by highly-assisted 1st options.
First of all, Tommy Heinsohn was a rookie the same year as Russell and he took over the 1st option duties for about a half decade until the mid-60's - he was a big man PF (highly-assisted).
Secondly, basketball has gotten more ball-dominant as time as progressed and handles improved, so assisted rates have declined as time as progressed... It's common knowledge that the 60's and 70's were the "no handle" eras, which indicates the most passing and highest assisted rates in history - there were no real "ball-dominators" back then like you have now... It's well-known that passing was the primary way of moving the ball in those days... Infact, part of the reason the Celtics didn't have a top ranking in some years was because they had stiff competition from Wilt's team, who was #1 every year because Wilt provided a million assisted buckets per game.. Ultimately, the only low-assisted skillsets are point guard styles, and these types of dribbling roles were at their lowest in the 60's.
Thirdly, Sam Jones and John Havlicek took over for Heinsohn in the mid-60's and they were both shooting guards... The starting lineup had 2 shooting guards and both guys were low APG players that played like Klay, Miller or Rip Hamilton.... Low APG means less time with the ball and higher assisted rate - we can run the numbers on this - does lower APG generally mean higher assisted rate for the individual player???... The numbers will say yes because the only kind of players that are under 40% assisted rate are higher APG players (luka, lillard, bron, etc), so low APG players will be above 40% assisted rate nearly every time..
.
Btw, as a fan, you should be able to tell if a player is highly-assisted just by watching them for a few seconds... If they play like KG, Rasheed Wallace, KAT, Jokic, Embiid, Shaq or any "big man", then they're highly-assisted 100% of the time.... If they're great shooters like Mitch Richmond, Beal, Durant, Booker, Bird, Jordan - then they're highly-assisted as well, but probably not as much as the bigs.... so the ONLY low-assisted skillset are the ball-dominators, who are obvious - it's the Luka's, Lillard's, Lebron's, Rondo's, and Westbrook's of the world... Someone like Nash requires looking up because he's such a great shooter, and we see that he was low-assisted just like 100% of point guards not named Curry, or various SG's that play PG like Derek Fisher, Paxson, Jamal Murray and guys like that.
This is why the previous list that shows all 25 ppg scorers with below 40% assisted rate is a nice guide - the list is populated by point guards or dribble-happy "shooting guards" like Iverson, Wade, Arenas, or Monta Ellis.... Otoh, the other list shows 25 ppg scorers with over a 50% assisted rate and they're all big men or great shooters.. It's quite revealing and possibly educational for some fans.. (list here)
.
MJ had an EFG% of 43% (good for 12th best in the series). For the GOAT scorer. That's terrible. You know that right?
That’s like saying a goat athlete like usain bolt sucks or isn’t the goat because he didn’t break world record when winning the gold at the Olympics some years .
Now that we have proven with a proper statistical analysis of historical data that even the most ball dominant player (James Harden) can lead a high team assist offense — significantly more so than the Spurs dynasty, fallguy’s arguments have fully proven that LeBron James is the GOAT.
There are no limitations to LeBron. Ball dominant players can lead high assist teams (now proven). But LeBron can play off-ball too (assisted rate as high as the upper 40’s as a point forward; abnormally high!) and play anywhere on the court like he did under Spoelstra. He is the all time leading scoring in NBA history, and he is 4th all time in assists which facilitates high team assists and optimizes teammate off-ball play. This also leads to dynasties under the right roster construction, coach, and system as fallguy has agreed with me on. And this has been proven with the LeBron James dynasty from 2012 to 2016 where he won 3 rings under two different teams (factually proving his versatility).
Great work using convincing argument to prove that LeBron James is the GOAT fallguy, and thank you for tweaking your arguments to fully agree with me and the rest of the thread participants now. I’m glad you’ve become so submissive.
(Consider this an addendum to the thread solving post #22999 as referenced in the thread title.)
Repost of post #22999 (referenced above). I think it is good to put these two posts next to each other as the above is an extension of the final proof, and fallguy has fully submitted now.
Corrected thread cliffs, for those who understand basketball:Basketball is a team sport, and teams that have great ball movement and a high assist rate are a function of personnel, coaching, and offensive scheme. There are 5 players per team on the court at once, therefore “personnel” means more than one player. Great dynasties that “mostly won” are a function of coaching and m
A one-off in a hundred seasons??.. lmao... The entire player pool of 25 ppg scorers with low assisted rates averages 18th in team assists (since the stat was introduced in 1997).
The low team assists of low-assisted scorers is why 6 of 6 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options, who produce higher-assist teams as required by 5 of the 6 dynasties.
Since the best basketball (dynasties) requires highly-assisted 1st options like Curry, Jordan or Shaq, low-assisted ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka and Harden represent an entirely lower level of perennially-losing basketball that can never produce the best basketball (dynasties).
Lebron produced low-team assists for his entire career
More importantly, the entire player pool of 25 ppg scorers with low-assisted rates average 18th in team assists (since 1997).
The low team assists of low-assisted scorers is why 6 of 6 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options, who produce higher-assist teams as required by 5 of the 6 dynasties.
Lebron and all high-scoring ball-dominators destroy their teammates' versatility by reducing their assists and increasing their versatile assisted rate to spot-up territory..
In layman's terms, guys like Lebron, Harden and all ball-dominators have a high volume of unassisted buckets (low-assisted rate) that leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles, which craters their assists and prevents a high-assist team.
Lebron's assisted rate was 29-41% during his time as a competitive player (thru 2021), and point guard is the only skillset or position with assisted rates that low.
Furthermore, a ton of bad fits with most players proves that Lebron isn't versatile, otherwise he would've just put on his "karl malone hat" when westbrook arrived... Instead, his ball-dominant skillset clashed with Westbrook and many players, which caused perennial underachievement, such as the most losses ever with preseason favorites and Finals teams, or bevies of losses with all-star teammates and top seeds.
His ball-dominance is further demonstrated by his low-assisted rate at high scoring volume and the resulting bevy of unassisted buckets that leave teammates standing around in spot-up roles - this reduces his teammates assists, thus preventing a high-assist team.. Again, the low-assist teams of low-assisted scorers like Lebron and Luka is why 6 of 6 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options like Curry or MJ, who produce higher-assist teams as required by 5 of the 6 dynasties.
.
.
.
These are considered assists in today's game:
Amazing video:
Tyvm Matt R.
New thread title!!!
LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
09' MO WILLIAMS..... 17/3/4 on 59 TS.... 17.2 PER... 2.3 bpm... 0.165 ws/48... 3.1 vorp... #3 team defense
11' JASON TERRY....... 16/2/4 on 55 TS.... 15.8 PER... 0.9 bpm... 0.100 ws/48... 1.9 vorp... #8 team defense
Why do people give Lebron a pass for losing with Mo when Dirk won with lesser offensive help in Terry and vastly inferior team defense?
2004 - lottery
2005 - lottery with all-star teammate
2006 - 26 ppg in 7-game series (could've done more to win)
2007 - 35% and 6 TO player won the weakest East ever
2008 - 35% and 6 TO's against Celtics
2009 - top 5 biggest favorite to ever lose playoff series and to 1-star team
2010 - top 10 biggest favorite to ever lose playoffs series
2011 - goat choke
2012 - preseason favorite fell to underdog to 22-year old Westbrick
2013 - 23 on 43% thru 6 games, so needs Allen miracle - 0 plus/minus for series
2014 - brand of ball exposed
2015 - Iverson performance in Finals is praised as great - the fraud begins...
2016 - 24 and 6 TO's to get 1-3 deficit requires sidekick to outplay league MVP (unprecedented help)
2017 - record loss with 2 all-star teammates and outplayed by KD
2018 - record loss with 1 all-star teammate and outplayed by KD
2019 - lottery in first year out West without manufactured East
2020 - 2nd option bubble gum
2021 - first low seed of career, so 1st Round exit
2022 - biggest underachievement ever (missing play-in with Westbrook)
2023 - swept by losing 4 straight fourth-quarter leads to his bully Jokic
2024 - 1st Round loss as Jokic whipping boy
2025 - broke promise to match MJ's 82 games at 40 years old
* most losses ever with favored rosters, aka preseason favorites and Finals teams, along with bevies of losses with all-star teammates, homecourt and top seeds.
* His high volume of unassisted buckets (low-assisted rate) leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles, which craters their assists and prevents a high-assist team... The entire player pool of 25 ppg scorers with low assisted rates average 18th in team assists (since the stat was introduced in 1997).... The low team assists of low-assisted scorers is why 6 of 6 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options, who produce higher-assist teams as required by 5 of the 6 dynasties... Since the best basketball (dynasties) requires highly-assisted 1st options like Curry, Jordan or Shaq, low-assisted ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka and Harden represent an entirely lower level of perennially-losing basketball that can never produce the best basketball (dynasties).
.
.
.
Fully-Vetted Doctrine Regarding the Inherent Inferiority of Low-assisted 1st Options and Scoring
Based on the massive sample size of every player since 1997, we can conclude that high scorers that are low-assisted (ball-dominators) produce an average team assist ranking of 18th, and are never 1st option on dynasties... 6 of 6 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options, who produce higher-assist teams, as required by 5 of the 6 dynasties.
Since the best basketball (dynasties) requires highly-assisted 1st options like Curry, Jordan or Shaq, low-assisted ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka and Harden represent an entirely lower level of perennially-losing basketball that can never produce the best basketball (dynasties).
You mean vetting, which is great.
Shifting/vetting means adjusting based on feedback, which is certainly better than simply stating a wish that you wish to be true, and then not listening to reasons why it's untrue.
For example, you can't just declare that a guy can play off-ball just because you want him to... The assisted rate must be there to prove it... If a player has an assisted rate.of 40% or less, then he's dominating the ball and is invariably a point guard-style player like Lillard, Luka, Lebron, LaMelo, etc.. In the years when Lebron was a competitive player and playing for titles (thru 2021), his assisted rate was 29-41%, which are rates only possessed by ball-dominators..
This low-assisted player-type has many unassisted buckets that lower teammates' assists and produce below-average assist teams - none of these low-assisted skillsets that produce low-assist teams have ever been the 1st option on a dynasty.. Dynasties are generally higher-assist teams that always have highly-assisted 1st options, who produce higher-assist teams.
lol @ Magic not being the first option as a Laker, but then using names like Nash, CP3 etc as low-assisted first option guys.
SMH.
Anyway let's move on from this topic you've clearly lost. Tell us some other stupid stat so we can laugh at that.
