LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Someone claimed that SGA and Donovan Mitchell were ball-dominators, yet they were still leading favorites to win the title, so I responded with a list of ball-dominators like 09' Lebron, Westbrook, Luka and others that were also big favorites at various points in the regular season...

I could've excluded lower scorers like Nash from the list but this doesn't change the fact that Magic led the Lakers in scoring for 1 of 11 seasons and was never considered a scorer, let alone the go-to guy over goat closers Kareem or Worthy... No one thinks that and the numbers don't support it.

Matt's last response was a re-post of the wish list ("but lebron DOES play off-ball because I want him to") that Mclovin turned into the thread title, so I clearly knocked him out - he's out for the count and I must say that I don't mind because it was getting annoying having to explain things like Kareem wasn't a low-assisted ball-dominator

The MVP stuff is irrelevant because Kareem was the go-to player and leading scorer for the Lakers thru 1986, and then other highly-assisted scorers took over like Worthy or Scott.

No one viewed Magic as a "scorer" or go-to player.. He led the Lakers in scoring for 1 of 11 seasons and was considered a passer.. And it's interesting that the group-think of a few journalism majors gave Kareem 6 MVP's in the 70's, but then suddenly Magic was more valuable, even though Kareem was still the go-to player, closer, and rim protector.

So again, based on the sample size of every player since 1997, high scorers that are low-assisted (ball-dominators) produce teams with an average assist rank of 18th, and are never 1st option on dynasties.... The low-assist teams of low-assisted 1st options is why 6 of 6 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options, who produce higher-assist teams as required by 5 of the 6 dynasties.

Since the best basketball (dynasties) requires highly-assisted 1st options like Curry, Jordan or Shaq, low-assisted ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka and Harden represent an entirely lower level of perennially-losing basketball that can never produce the best basketball (dynasties).

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Final Thread Cliffs

Based on the sample size of every player since 1997, high scorers that are low-assisted (ball-dominators) produce teams with an average assist rank of 18th, and are never 1st option on dynasties.... The low-assist teams of low-assisted 1st options is why 6 of 6 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options, who produce higher-assist teams as required by 5 of the 6 dynasties.

Since the best basketball (dynasties) requires highly-assisted 1st options like Curry, Jordan, or Shaq, low-assisted ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka and Harden represent an entirely lower level of perennially-losing basketball that can never produce the best basketball (dynasties).

Since 1997 there has been 3 dynasties, which have 2 such cases. Hardly anything to write home about.

Basically all you are saying is that dynasties can't be led by point guards who are the players on the court who typically have low assisted rates (yes, LeBron is a point guard).

Using the word "led" leaves room for ambiguity because it's really all about who the leading scorer is and go-to player, since they have the highest volume of buckets - the nature of these buckets (assisted or unassisted) affects the how the team is able to play (ball movement or ball-domination).

Accordingly, dynasties can't have their 1st option be a point guard (low-assisted player), since the high volume of unassisted buckets reduces teammates' assists and prevents high-assist teams.. Since 1997, low-assisted 1st options averaged 18th in team assists, which is why 6 of 6 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options, who produce higher-assist teams required by 5 of the 6 dynasties.... Meanwhile, 6 of 6 dynasties had historic ball movement that wouldn't be possible with a massive glut of unassisted buckets (low-assisted ball-domination) from the leading scorer.

Why do you guys keep leaving out Shaq?

Since 1997, we've seen 4 of 4 dynasties need highly-assisted 1st options (non point guards), including Jordan, Shaq, Duncan and Curry.

That's 4 of 4 dynasties that needed highly-assisted 1st options, and we know that the 1st options on the 80's Lakers and 60's Celtics were big men (Kareem, Heinsohn), and therefore highly-assisted.. So that's 6 of 6.

Do you think Jordan’s legacy can be salvaged at this point? I still have him top 3 peak and top 5 career but it’s tough to argue for him anymore since his career assist average is only about 5 per game. And it’s so key to have a high assist team to build a dynasty. Pippen didn’t carry him or anything but it sure seems like he did a lot of heavy lifting facilitating in the triangle offense.

LeBron is really easy to argue for since he is such a great high assist playmaker and he accomplished this across multiple teams while never getting the opportunity to play in the triangle… and he won 4 rings anyway. I almost think we’re really really underrating Pippen since he facilitated everything and won 6 rings.

Yeah, MJ is still okay. Got lucky to be on a team that had high assist teammates and all that setting him up for easy baskets. I mean if only LeBron got to play with a team mate that finished Top 5 in the MVP and Top 2 DPOY on multiple occasions. Also, didn't need to take two years off because he got tired (or some bullshit excuse).

I mean you substitute Jordan with Drexler and it probably plays out the same.

FG raises good points about winning is harder with a low assist leading scorer. So LeBron is actually winning despite this. Logic would tell me that would mean LeBron has to be a better player to still win despite this handicap.

FG helping LeBron's case, which isn't unusual.

the best part of all this

is that FG did it all to himself, he pulled a reverse Keyser Soze

Lebron fans lose a debate, tell a bunch of quick lies to save face and then run back to their corner

I was right

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At this point, everything you guys say is wrong and the opposite of the truth:

Career APG

Westbrook........ 8.6
Rondo................ 8.0
Kyrie.................. 5.7
D-Lo................... 5.7
Wade................. 5.4
Jordan................ 5.3

Pippen............... 5.2

Everyone averaged more assists than Pippen, such as Lebron's teammates, or other 90's sidekicks like Stockton, Payton, KJ or Hardaway...

So Pippen had the worst passing, scoring, efficiency, spacing and clutch of any notable 90's sidekick.

Itt we learn that ball-dominators (the most losing skillset ever) needs more scoring AND playmaking help.
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If a coach has Shaq on his team, then the team must play in-out basketball... Period.. So it isn't about coaching - it's about personnel that allows various styles to succeed or fail...

A team will fail if they try to post up Steve Nash, which is why it's never happened - ditto putting a ball-dominator like Luka and Lebron off-ball.. These obvious truths are why these things have never happened.

Accordingly, if a coach has Luka or Lebron on the team, the team must play ball-domination and low assist basketball... And the team cannot be a dynasty because 6 of 6 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options, who produce higher-assist teams and great ball movement associated with every dynasty.
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Dynasties since 1997

Jordan......... Highly-assisted player
Shaq .......... Highly-assisted player
Duncan....... Highly-assisted player
Curry........... Highly-assisted player

^^^ 4 of 4 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options... Furthermore, we know that every big man in history is highly-assisted, which means 6 of 6 dynasties had highly-assisted 1st options when we include Kareem's Lakers and Heinsohn's Celtics from the 60's.

So why are you guys lying and pretending that I'm wrong?.. Accept the mathematical reality that 6 of 6 dynasties required highly-assisted 1st options, who produce higher-assist teams and foster goat ball movement associated with every dynasty..

Otoh, low-assisted 1st options produce low-assist teams (18th on average), while having horrible fits, chemistry and zero teammate development (their high volume of unassisted buckets leaves teammates in spot-up roles that lower everyone's assists).
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One thing that I think is interesting is that when MJ joined the Bulls their assist rate went from 25.5 apg to 24.3. A -4.9% drop year over year. A consequence of his inability to involve teammates until Phil Jackson and Pippen rescued him.

When LeBron joined the Cavs their assist rate went from 20.9 apg to 22.0. An increase of +5.0%.

When MJ left the Bulls in ‘93 their assist rate did indeed drop, but only slightly so. It went from 26.0 apg to 25.6; a drop of only -1.5%.

When LeBron left the Cavs in 2010 however their team assists fell a lot, going from 22.4 apg to 21.0. A drop of -6.4%.

And when LeBron left Miami their team assists absolutely cratered, going from 22.5 apg to 19.8. A drop of -12.0% (!!!).

So it looks like the facilitators, Pippen and LeBron in these cases, are more important than the individual scorer in contributing to team assists. Which as we’ve discussed is the key to building a dynasty. We’ve been underrating Pippen and even LeBron this whole time. They are the glue that allows dynasties to even form because of their assists and playmaking. All built around the proper scheme of course. Can you imagine what LeBron would have done if he had the opportunity to play under Phil Jackson and the triangle?

Welp.... The higher-assisted Giannis just showed the low-assisted SGA what championship basketball is all about.

So it looks like SGA won't be the first low-assisted 1st option to have a dynasty or dominant champion.

See that's the thing - there's never been a low-assisted 1st option on a dynasty OR a dominant champion, i.e. dominant playoff run to a title, such as Jokic Nuggets or Tatum Celtics - Tatum's assisted rates from his rookie year to last year are 66, 58, 47, 41,47, 56, and 40, while Brown is between 48-70 during his career - neither are low-assisted players..

Again, low-assisted 1st options can't have dynasties OR dominant champions (aka the best basketball)..

Btw, if you're looking for exceptions, Tony Parker only averaged 16.7 ppg for the Spurs in 2014 regular season - this level of scoring doesn't count because we're really talking about higher-scoring 1st options, so the higher number of unassisted buckets comes into play (reduces everyone's assist opportunity).. Obviously, low-scoring point guards like Nash, Parker and Magic have high-assist teams all the time because their low scoring levels don't have many unassisted buckets (and they pass to big assist targets like Kareem, Amare & Duncan).... Otoh, the high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron have many unassisted buckets, and that's the foundation for the lower brand of ball that cannot produce the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions).

When high-scorers that are low-assisted (ball-dominators) join a team, their own 7+ assists is normally slightly greater than the amount that they reduce everyone else's assists, so the team sees a small, initial bump.

But that's where it ends....

The team cannot become a high-assist team because Lebron, Luka or (insert ball-dominator) is lowering everyone's assists by having a high volume of unassisted buckets themselves (high-scoring at low-assisted rates).. Based on the sample of all players since 1997, high-scorers with low-assisted rates of below 40% produce teams with an assist rank of 18th, while high-scorers with assisted rates of 50% or more produced much higher-assist teams (10th) - based on all players since 1997.

In contrast to Lebron's teams that see a small bump in team assists but then don't grow and often regress, Jordan's trendline looks the opposite and included steady, positive growth over time like a winning poker graph.. The reason that Jordan's teams increased their assist-ranking over time is because Jordan increased and grew his teammates' assists by being a great assist-target himself, thereby putting the ball in their hands.. This proved to be the best growth methodology, so Jordan didn't need ready-made stars like Lebron, whose style imposes spot-up roles and therefore cannot grow teammates..

In the history of basketball, only Jordan had to grow single-digit rookies into meaningful producers to win titles, and we aren't talking elite producers - just barely enough for MJ to be unbeatable, which was the least all-star help ever, the least scoring help ever, the least spacing help ever, and the least rim protection.

Less stats like mj had to sacrifice too.

The triangle has no de facto point guard, so the 1 position can be utilized by a 3 point shooter who doesn’t have PG skills or even a 3+D wing.

LeBron would’ve respected Phil Jackson immensely, probably viewed him as the father figure he never had, and read every book he recommended (TWICE!).

Plus his BBIQ is comparable to Magnus’ Chess ELO so Matt R. I’m sure you would agree that LeBron would be able to MASTER the triangle.

You have no idea.

So, number of jump shots has barely changed over the years. Mid range shots are soooooooo much more exciting than 3s. lol.

The game was in horrible shape when MJ retired. He basically led the league to a horrible visual product.

And viewship is down? Do you realise how basketball is consumed these days? Welcome to the internet old man. Did you see the ridiculous amount of money that it cost for the broadcast rights?

I'm sure NBA players are fine with what's happened since 2012.

Not competitive? lol

There's been a different NBA Champion each of the last 6 seasons.

Meanwhile there were 6 different Championship teams between 1980 to 1998. 7 between 1980 and 2003.

You raise some great points as always.

Giannis currently at the sky high assisted rate of 42%. I'm pretty sure you wrote essays about how horrible LeBron was when he has a career average of around 40%.

lol